12GA Rifle From Hell
- Thread starter HUBEL458
- Start date
NEF 12ga Ultra $275. It already has aheavy barrel.
Deepen chamber $50. 3.5" plastic cases new
with primers 20 cents ea . Later on get 3.5" RMC brass 10 bucks each.
Sabot or slug of your choice. Powder, roll crimper, reload stuff.
Add a thick 35 buck pad to gun add weight in the butt.
You want bolt action you get a Savage for twice as much
and add a $300 heavy barrel, weight, thick pad.
For a pump gun the new thick barreled
Remington with 25.5" thick barrel, about 550 bucks.Redo
it for 3.5" plastic cases. Weight, thick pad.
A switch barrel auto we are testing 3.5" 12ga
smoothbore USS-S slugs, with hopped up loads.
About as accurate as the other guns here. Also
I'm getting the auto set up in my 585 HE long
case.585 HE long case shown in the port.
Switching barrels only takes minutes. This 12ga
barrel about as heavy as the 210 Savage barrel.
It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader I've reworked
the stroke and have a barrel extension coming to add
585 28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad.
We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of
9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed
Deepen chamber $50. 3.5" plastic cases new
with primers 20 cents ea . Later on get 3.5" RMC brass 10 bucks each.
Sabot or slug of your choice. Powder, roll crimper, reload stuff.
Add a thick 35 buck pad to gun add weight in the butt.
You want bolt action you get a Savage for twice as much
and add a $300 heavy barrel, weight, thick pad.
For a pump gun the new thick barreled
Remington with 25.5" thick barrel, about 550 bucks.Redo
it for 3.5" plastic cases. Weight, thick pad.
A switch barrel auto we are testing 3.5" 12ga
smoothbore USS-S slugs, with hopped up loads.
About as accurate as the other guns here. Also
I'm getting the auto set up in my 585 HE long
case.585 HE long case shown in the port.
Switching barrels only takes minutes. This 12ga
barrel about as heavy as the 210 Savage barrel.
It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader I've reworked
the stroke and have a barrel extension coming to add
585 28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad.
We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of
9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed
Guys have asked about a 10ga FH, and it is just
getting stuff to do cases with reasonable time and cost.
So a breakthrough with a 10ga FH, is putting 10 gauge
basecups from plastic cases onto 50cal Russian brass to
make a 4.05" long 10ga. I expand case using my shellholder
on original rim, put in bushing for shotgun primer, which
fires off RE17, the turn case and rim a little, and slip
on basecup with epoxy inside. Then take a 200 dollar heavy
barrel NEF 10ga, and deepen chamber like mine is.
Here is picture with one beside a 12ga FH. The 12ga FH holds
max load of about 330 gr ball powder below a slug,
and the 10ga FH holds 420gr. I'm getting things set
to get a bunch of cases to do this. Progress.
Now anyone wanting any of my cases for their collection
I have a package of them all. Contact me.. ...Ed
getting stuff to do cases with reasonable time and cost.
So a breakthrough with a 10ga FH, is putting 10 gauge
basecups from plastic cases onto 50cal Russian brass to
make a 4.05" long 10ga. I expand case using my shellholder
on original rim, put in bushing for shotgun primer, which
fires off RE17, the turn case and rim a little, and slip
on basecup with epoxy inside. Then take a 200 dollar heavy
barrel NEF 10ga, and deepen chamber like mine is.
Here is picture with one beside a 12ga FH. The 12ga FH holds
max load of about 330 gr ball powder below a slug,
and the 10ga FH holds 420gr. I'm getting things set
to get a bunch of cases to do this. Progress.
Now anyone wanting any of my cases for their collection
I have a package of them all. Contact me.. ...Ed
Here is a neat idea for a 5 shot 12ga,
a 12ga revolver. Nice looking gun.
Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga
NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can
get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can
make tooling and charge less than
300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring.
Let me know and we'll get arrangements made
if enough are interested.I have two now.ED
a 12ga revolver. Nice looking gun.
Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga
NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can
get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can
make tooling and charge less than
300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring.
Let me know and we'll get arrangements made
if enough are interested.I have two now.ED
The long brass 10GA FH case shown above has a Lyman
slug in a thickwall 10ga steel shotcup that BPI sells.
That's a 12ga 525gr Lyman.Makes nice lighter slug for 10ga.
The slug has bottom chamfered to set in cup tight
and a little epoxy makes it one piece that makes it a discarding
sabot style like a SPW. That makes it front heavy so that it
is as accurate as Brenekke KOs in smoothbore. I'm
also working with a guys to cast long hollowbase 10ga slugs
like the ones Federal loads. We are figuring out molds now,
will probably make slugs about 850gr. Here is picture of
my 10GA FH NEF with long brass case started in the chamber.
Chamber is set for that 4.050" brass case and will shoot 3.5"
plastic cases also. I am going to put on a thumbhole Survivor
stock like I have on NEF 8ga we did.Ed
slug in a thickwall 10ga steel shotcup that BPI sells.
That's a 12ga 525gr Lyman.Makes nice lighter slug for 10ga.
The slug has bottom chamfered to set in cup tight
and a little epoxy makes it one piece that makes it a discarding
sabot style like a SPW. That makes it front heavy so that it
is as accurate as Brenekke KOs in smoothbore. I'm
also working with a guys to cast long hollowbase 10ga slugs
like the ones Federal loads. We are figuring out molds now,
will probably make slugs about 850gr. Here is picture of
my 10GA FH NEF with long brass case started in the chamber.
Chamber is set for that 4.050" brass case and will shoot 3.5"
plastic cases also. I am going to put on a thumbhole Survivor
stock like I have on NEF 8ga we did.Ed
We talk about liking the use of heavier slug barrels
in using our slow powder and handling recoil better.
Guy out west has this heavy muzzled, Hastings, rifled
barrel, for his REM 870. In first pic is a comparison to the
original 870 barrel. It shows a muzzle as heavy as on
a NEF Ultra Slug GUN. 2nd picture is the gun itself.
That makes a neat slug gun..Ed
in using our slow powder and handling recoil better.
Guy out west has this heavy muzzled, Hastings, rifled
barrel, for his REM 870. In first pic is a comparison to the
original 870 barrel. It shows a muzzle as heavy as on
a NEF Ultra Slug GUN. 2nd picture is the gun itself.
That makes a neat slug gun..Ed
Slug Gun
Did you try cutting the case down at the shoulder to see what velocities you would get without having to expand the necks?
I havent read all of the posts, sorry if this was asked,heck there are so many.....
I am not a reloader, just wondered if that was also feasable, or if it didnt improve much over a 3"
Thanks for your hard work.
Makes me want to shoot my High Standard Bolt 12GA.
mark
Did you try cutting the case down at the shoulder to see what velocities you would get without having to expand the necks?
I havent read all of the posts, sorry if this was asked,heck there are so many.....
I am not a reloader, just wondered if that was also feasable, or if it didnt improve much over a 3"
Thanks for your hard work.
Makes me want to shoot my High Standard Bolt 12GA.
mark
We have used cases we put rims on and the RMC brass cases,
cut back to 3"- 2.75"- 2.5" and velocity goes down
accordingly. Some guys have bought 3" RMC cases and used them
in NEF Ultras, and Savage 210s. with good results comparable
to 3.5" plastic case loads. Magtech makes a 2.5" brass case that
guys like to use in older guns and 2 3/4" guns.Long case advantage
is greater velocity at low pressures as there is more room
for cushion wads as well as more powder.Ed
cut back to 3"- 2.75"- 2.5" and velocity goes down
accordingly. Some guys have bought 3" RMC cases and used them
in NEF Ultras, and Savage 210s. with good results comparable
to 3.5" plastic case loads. Magtech makes a 2.5" brass case that
guys like to use in older guns and 2 3/4" guns.Long case advantage
is greater velocity at low pressures as there is more room
for cushion wads as well as more powder.Ed
The heavy rifled barrel in previous post was made by
Hastings for the Remington 870. It is 26" long and a
muzzle diameter of over an inch. Hastings is gone now,
but we'd like to find some of these barrels. The Hastings
number of the barrel is 560H90.
In the meantime Remington has come out with their
SPS Super Magnum Slug Gun with 25.5" rifled barrel and
a 1" diameter muzzle, with more solid barrel, and extra
pins in mounting barrel, so a scope can be put on action. Ed
Hastings for the Remington 870. It is 26" long and a
muzzle diameter of over an inch. Hastings is gone now,
but we'd like to find some of these barrels. The Hastings
number of the barrel is 560H90.
In the meantime Remington has come out with their
SPS Super Magnum Slug Gun with 25.5" rifled barrel and
a 1" diameter muzzle, with more solid barrel, and extra
pins in mounting barrel, so a scope can be put on action. Ed
Cheepshooter
Inactive
Ed,
I registered on this forum just now specifically to ask you a couple questions.
I've read all the posts on all of the forums I could find where you were talking about the 12FH, 499HE, 700HE, etc. I have to say that I'm almost more impressed with your ability to post your developments across such a wide range of forums for so long than with the actual development. That is saying a lot since I'm thoroughly impressed with your developments.
So here are the questions:
1) I talked to E.R. Shaw about their 12 and 20 gauge barrels. They only offer uncontoured blanks, but the price is great. I think you used one on your Savage 210. Was the outside concentric enough with the bore that you didn't have to turn it down any? If I could leave it heavy and just thread it, that would be ideal for me.
2) I am waiting on written clarification from the ATF, but since you've been through this with the 700HE, you may know the answer. My intention is to build a cartridge using a .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs case blown out straight to hold a .615-.620 dia (20 gauge) projectile. Since this isn't a shotgun round, I'll need to get a DD exemption from the ATF. No problem. Once I'm done, I intend to build a rifle on a Mauser style action using a Shaw 20 gauge rifled allow barrel. What I'll end up with is essentially a rimmless 3" or 3.25" 20 gauge bolt action magazine rifle. The question is this: Once I get a DD exemption for the cartrdige, do I then ALSO have to submit the rifle for exemption? It seems redundant, but I want to be one the safe side.
Thanks again for all the exciting work you do.
Jpt
I registered on this forum just now specifically to ask you a couple questions.
I've read all the posts on all of the forums I could find where you were talking about the 12FH, 499HE, 700HE, etc. I have to say that I'm almost more impressed with your ability to post your developments across such a wide range of forums for so long than with the actual development. That is saying a lot since I'm thoroughly impressed with your developments.
So here are the questions:
1) I talked to E.R. Shaw about their 12 and 20 gauge barrels. They only offer uncontoured blanks, but the price is great. I think you used one on your Savage 210. Was the outside concentric enough with the bore that you didn't have to turn it down any? If I could leave it heavy and just thread it, that would be ideal for me.
2) I am waiting on written clarification from the ATF, but since you've been through this with the 700HE, you may know the answer. My intention is to build a cartridge using a .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs case blown out straight to hold a .615-.620 dia (20 gauge) projectile. Since this isn't a shotgun round, I'll need to get a DD exemption from the ATF. No problem. Once I'm done, I intend to build a rifle on a Mauser style action using a Shaw 20 gauge rifled allow barrel. What I'll end up with is essentially a rimmless 3" or 3.25" 20 gauge bolt action magazine rifle. The question is this: Once I get a DD exemption for the cartrdige, do I then ALSO have to submit the rifle for exemption? It seems redundant, but I want to be one the safe side.
Thanks again for all the exciting work you do.
Jpt
silentshot
Inactive
New Project - ? subsonic 12G FH
Hi Ed,
I have been following your thread for sometime, and like everyone else am very impressed with what you have done and appreciate you sharing your information.
I was so inspired that I purchased a bolt action 12G to start my own project. I am about to purchase a heavy rifled barrel and at this point I want to ask some advice.
My intention is a little bit different. I am a fan of the supressed / silenced rifles such as the Delisle carbine, and of the whipser series of subsonic wildcats, and the .510 is interesting. Imagine it at .710
I intend to load a standard 3" 12g to fire a very heavy projectile at subsonic. 1000 -1200grains or heavier. It would be a tapered profile.
The barrel would not have to be very long , say 16 inches, or even 12! (legal inimum here). I would attach a suppressor on the end of the barrel. I would not taper the barrel to keep it heavy, to help with recoil. The weight of the suppressor would help.
So just a couple of questions:
1) I assume that as my aim is subsonic I would be ok with a standard
length cartridge, assuming the heavy bullet would be longer also?
2) Any advice on powder and loads with standard or even short cartridge to get subsonic speeds.
3) What twist rate would you recommend? I know you use 1:20-22, but do you think say a 1:8 - 1:10 might be advisable for accuracy, but likely would be custom rather than off the shelf.
Cheers
Kevin
Hi Ed,
I have been following your thread for sometime, and like everyone else am very impressed with what you have done and appreciate you sharing your information.
I was so inspired that I purchased a bolt action 12G to start my own project. I am about to purchase a heavy rifled barrel and at this point I want to ask some advice.
My intention is a little bit different. I am a fan of the supressed / silenced rifles such as the Delisle carbine, and of the whipser series of subsonic wildcats, and the .510 is interesting. Imagine it at .710
I intend to load a standard 3" 12g to fire a very heavy projectile at subsonic. 1000 -1200grains or heavier. It would be a tapered profile.
The barrel would not have to be very long , say 16 inches, or even 12! (legal inimum here). I would attach a suppressor on the end of the barrel. I would not taper the barrel to keep it heavy, to help with recoil. The weight of the suppressor would help.
So just a couple of questions:
1) I assume that as my aim is subsonic I would be ok with a standard
length cartridge, assuming the heavy bullet would be longer also?
2) Any advice on powder and loads with standard or even short cartridge to get subsonic speeds.
3) What twist rate would you recommend? I know you use 1:20-22, but do you think say a 1:8 - 1:10 might be advisable for accuracy, but likely would be custom rather than off the shelf.
Cheers
Kevin
spotter123654
New member
beastly looking gun
I like that thumbhole stock/ For me could be all
wood and bluing.
jpt- I answered you on Greybeards forum.
Main thing is that a Gibbs case won't do .620" bullet.
Ok my 12ga is a.729" barrel. Pacnor 1-20 twist like mine
will do ok. Min bbl length shotgun is 18"-- unless you register
it as a NFA weapon and pay 200 buck tax.If a suppressor
will have to be NFA. You can do subsonic with 3" case.
Use about 30gr Blue dot slow shotgun powder with a
1000gr slug.
I am now putting a 3.5" 20ga on the FBW action.
We are having RMC make 3.5" brass 20ga cases. I also
bought a huge box of 3.5" plastic case Hastings
hot rod sabot slugs at their out if business auction.
Picture is of FBW with brass case in the feed trough.
Any wanting to do 20 ga brass cases, at same time,
contact RMC, they'd like to make a big batch this spring..
I also got few of the cases to make the 10ga FH
brass 4.050" long case. Anyone wanting one. I'll part
with them, but I'll only will have a few. The brass is hard
to find and costly.. Ed
wood and bluing.
jpt- I answered you on Greybeards forum.
Main thing is that a Gibbs case won't do .620" bullet.
Ok my 12ga is a.729" barrel. Pacnor 1-20 twist like mine
will do ok. Min bbl length shotgun is 18"-- unless you register
it as a NFA weapon and pay 200 buck tax.If a suppressor
will have to be NFA. You can do subsonic with 3" case.
Use about 30gr Blue dot slow shotgun powder with a
1000gr slug.
I am now putting a 3.5" 20ga on the FBW action.
We are having RMC make 3.5" brass 20ga cases. I also
bought a huge box of 3.5" plastic case Hastings
hot rod sabot slugs at their out if business auction.
Picture is of FBW with brass case in the feed trough.
Any wanting to do 20 ga brass cases, at same time,
contact RMC, they'd like to make a big batch this spring..
I also got few of the cases to make the 10ga FH
brass 4.050" long case. Anyone wanting one. I'll part
with them, but I'll only will have a few. The brass is hard
to find and costly.. Ed
silentshot
Inactive
Subsonic
Hi Ed
Thanks for your reply.
Unfortunately I am not in the USA, I am in New Zealand ( a small country where they make movies like Avatar and Lord of the Rings) . We have some restrictive gun laws but the minimum bbl for shotguns in NZ is 12 inch not 18.
We are also allowed suppressors, as our focus is not self defence but hunting. There is no NFA to worry about, just no autos or pistols.
I was thinking of 0.729, 12 inch and a 1;20. I am glad 3 inch would be sufficent for subsonic, as I can use a standard breach.
I guess any faster twist than 1;20 would be counter productive.
The good news is that at 12 inch could get 2 barrels out of a blank.
Thanks again. will get cracking and send some photos soon.
Cheers
Kevin
Hi Ed
Thanks for your reply.
Unfortunately I am not in the USA, I am in New Zealand ( a small country where they make movies like Avatar and Lord of the Rings) . We have some restrictive gun laws but the minimum bbl for shotguns in NZ is 12 inch not 18.
We are also allowed suppressors, as our focus is not self defence but hunting. There is no NFA to worry about, just no autos or pistols.
I was thinking of 0.729, 12 inch and a 1;20. I am glad 3 inch would be sufficent for subsonic, as I can use a standard breach.
I guess any faster twist than 1;20 would be counter productive.
The good news is that at 12 inch could get 2 barrels out of a blank.
Thanks again. will get cracking and send some photos soon.
Cheers
Kevin
I get asked about presses used for big cases.
Here is a picture of my 2 big presses on
the heavy bench, with the case spinner/lathe
on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut
Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster.
Both are braced so I can lean on them.Bench is
braced to wall supports and benches behind.
You can see the expanders laid out on the press
brace arms, and a whole bunch of shorty dies laid
out, that fit everything from 10ga down to
my 700HE. And variety of large cases and real large
4ga-8ga dies, parts I work with. On the right is a
stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed
Here is a picture of my 2 big presses on
the heavy bench, with the case spinner/lathe
on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut
Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster.
Both are braced so I can lean on them.Bench is
braced to wall supports and benches behind.
You can see the expanders laid out on the press
brace arms, and a whole bunch of shorty dies laid
out, that fit everything from 10ga down to
my 700HE. And variety of large cases and real large
4ga-8ga dies, parts I work with. On the right is a
stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed
Now might get real exciting load developement wise,
If we could make brass cases as long as the paper
one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic
case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting
a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third
a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot
liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think.
Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED
If we could make brass cases as long as the paper
one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic
case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting
a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third
a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot
liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think.
Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED
We have put 4 different cartridges in the Savage 210
bolt gun. We added various 12ga and .700"
heavy thick barrels.
The first was our 12ga FH long case.
The second was my 700H 3.25" belted case.
Third was the 3.5" 12ga that Bret did, and
fourth is the 700NE that we wanted to see
how it works. It shoots fine, has weighted stock,
and a 27 inch barrel.Has a double thick pad.
Cases in picture are 20 bucks each...Ed
bolt gun. We added various 12ga and .700"
heavy thick barrels.
The first was our 12ga FH long case.
The second was my 700H 3.25" belted case.
Third was the 3.5" 12ga that Bret did, and
fourth is the 700NE that we wanted to see
how it works. It shoots fine, has weighted stock,
and a 27 inch barrel.Has a double thick pad.
Cases in picture are 20 bucks each...Ed
Here is picture of my Mossy 695 that has heavy barrel for
the our long 12ga cases, in fact it chambers the 12ga
belted shown in picture ok that I use for testing.
I set chamber to do belted as well as rimmed.
Second picture is some of my 585 Short HE cases, that work
great in regular length actions.We have these in Ruger,
Enfields, Mausers already. I have available supply of
brass for these of about 8-9000. Ed
the our long 12ga cases, in fact it chambers the 12ga
belted shown in picture ok that I use for testing.
I set chamber to do belted as well as rimmed.
Second picture is some of my 585 Short HE cases, that work
great in regular length actions.We have these in Ruger,
Enfields, Mausers already. I have available supply of
brass for these of about 8-9000. Ed
drewnickel
Inactive
about the 12 gauge from hell
could you give me a list of all the supplies needed to build one? and how to double or triple a recoil pad for better protection? cause I'm planning on starting to get into gun collecting, and I'd like to have a 12gafh added to my (currently small) collection. list them by part # if possible so I can just look them up and buy them and have the local metal smiths do the rest, and how much does your ammo cost per 10?
could you give me a list of all the supplies needed to build one? and how to double or triple a recoil pad for better protection? cause I'm planning on starting to get into gun collecting, and I'd like to have a 12gafh added to my (currently small) collection. list them by part # if possible so I can just look them up and buy them and have the local metal smiths do the rest, and how much does your ammo cost per 10?