12GA Rifle From Hell

See what's possible, original Savage 210 action/stock
the one I have our long case in. You can lengthen
magazine in the plastic stock for up to 3.5" RMC brass
cases, also 3.5" plastic cases. And you can open up
bottom of the action to match, and the other things
I did on the port, bolt travel, etc to feed cases.
I did mine with heavy wood stock in singleshot.
Using original plastic stock you weight the hollow butt.
Trigger assembly on these is back to leave space for this.
In picture you see stock original and stock mag longer.
Second picture is a 3.5" brass case and slug overall
length 3.7", in longer magazine. Brett in MN, who did this
first used the regular follower and mag spring ok,
it feeds ok for him. .. Ed

smag.jpg


smagb.jpg
 
Info to help loading BPI sabots in plastic,ok to use plastic
overwad over powder, but should use cardboard card and
nitro wads above that below the BPI sabot. Sabot doesn't
tear up and accuracy much better. Personally I use
cards over powder and nitro wads, And with used cases
roll crimping onto the thin edge of sabot is uneven, so with
my used cases I set the sabot and slug to right height and
just redo the 6 point star crimp real hard, and the middle of
all the crimp sectors set right on the flat nose of the slug
in the sabot. I also do the same with RG's 715gr hollowpoint
with the crimp sectors right on the hollowpoint in used cases.
Roll crimping holds RG's slug in ok but its taper of the ogive and
smoothness it doesn't open crimp all the way around when
fired. The star crimp set slug at same height so you can get
the same amount of powder. With RMC brass these are not
problems but with brass to get good feeding from mag rounding
frong edge of mouth helps. Sectioned picture of RMC on right
next to our long original case to show how well it is built
thick and strong. One of cases has 20 firings, still good..Ed

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J.C.Gunsmithing is no longer venturing into the Wickliffe Rifles. Sorry for any inconveniance. Contact Tom Kocis, in Streetsboro,Ohio for infromation.
Thank you
 
What others are doing hopping up loads and experimenting.
Brett in MN uses a Mossy 835 12ga smoothbore turkey gun, but
it is backbored 10ga size all the way out to end and has 10ga size
choke, and he uses 12ga AQ 441gr slug with locked on basewad, from
BPI. Using top rib bead sight only he can hit a pail 5 times in a row at
70 yds.Amazing accuracy for overbored barrel. He uses BPI X12X seal
plastic wad, two 1/4" white felt wads, thin card then the AQ slug,
with 65gr of Longshot getting 2200 fps. 3.5" new cases with
roll crimp.......I asked him check it with a scope on it sometime.

NFG from Greybeard and Shotgunworld with pump Mossy and 18.5"
with slug barrel. He gets a 525gr Lyman over 1800 fps with
80gr of 4759/4227 powder. Hard alloy mix Lyman and shot one through
17" of pine. Shown in the pic below it mushroomed to .800" and only
lost 8gr weight. It is a wasp waisted slug that is shot from a 12ga
regular WW12 shotcup. The skirt of the slug collapsed into the underside
of the nose. Many guys say that these are as accurate as most
other stuff used. He used 3" plastic, PGS wad over powder and
WW12 wadcup with slug it. He cuts wadcup petals back to length
of the Lyman.

Ok I am going to get Lymans to test and Longshot to test.
Got to see if the Longshot will get further up in velocity
than Blue Dot. Ed

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Here is a Savage 210 with bottom of action opened up
toward the back, to take cases with 3.5" overall length.
Slug Warrior on Shotgun World did it. Is similiar job the
Brett in MN did, but he made his opening 3.7". I measured
mine and they can be opened to 3.95". They also milled
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases. Ed

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this is a fascinating thread!

I have been following this for a while and just can't get enough!
Just wondering if any thought had been given to using one of the old bolt action shotguns...specifically an old Marlin "SuperGoose" 10ga.
Looked at one not long ago, super beefy. Guess you'd have to cut the barrel down a bit since it is fixed full choke....any ideas?
 
Here is information and reason for keeping and milling
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases.Rim guides are angled in from the sides of the opening
toward back. As the bolt pushes top case in the mag forward the
back of case and rim comes to where the tapers widen out so
the case then slides up in front of the bolt.I'm fixing up my
2nd Savage I have set up for my second 700H 3.25" belted case.
Just to see how it will work and along with other guys
doing it, get the info out to people.
This work on the stock/action can be done in a vertical
mill or good drill press. To use 3.5" plastic the opening on
the action and magazine needs 3.25", for 2.875"" brass long loaded
3.5", if 3.5" brass about 3.7", if 3.5" brass long loaded, 3.95".
By long loaded I mean a slug like the Dixie 600gr that protrudes
up to .4".The 730 gr flat wide nose slug protrudes 1/8".
You also have to widen and smooth the ramp going into the
front bridge so case lifts smoothly on the way into chamber.Ed
 
I have been screwing around with large caliber cartridges for a while now but since I live in Idaho and we hunt with rifles it never accurred to me that you could do things on this scale. We just don't use slug guns. I have a 500 A-Square in a target rifle amongst other things. I have already ordered my 210 Savage and am thinking about both a 585 (577NE) and a 620 (600NE). What I have in mind is to shorten the BMG case to get the same capacity of the nitro Express cases. I want to recess the bolt face, headspace off the shoulder made by necking this rascal down and maybe change the extractors out for a couple Sako style extractors. I can think of a few other changes to make but they are not necessary to list at this point. According to the A-Square manual the 577NE using a 26 inch barrel shoves a 750 gr bullet at 2081 fps using 135 Gr. of RL-15. The 600 NE ( also with a 26 inch barrel does 1943 fps with a 900 gr. bullet using 159 gr. of RL-22. After reading what you guys are pulling off, this seems very possible. I'm not sure of the length of the cases to do these projects as the BMG is larger diameter than the express cases are. I have a project I am finishing now so I am free to do this one. Does anyone know what the Savage 210 action proofs out at? Do you think this is a do-able project? Thanks for the input and by the way, GREAT IDEA!!! Dave
 
Oh yes I almost forgot. the 577 NE and the 600 NE loads I mentioned are 30,100 psi and 26,700 respectively , Dave
 
Dawgkilla- The Marlin I saw couldn't have the port opened enough
for our long case, or even the 3.5" RMC case with a slug protruding.

DZ416- Thr Savage will handle the 577NE, 600NE, 700Ne at their
pressures or higher as it handled our 12GA FH with bigger base,
at 35-40,000 psi. It is just bolt thrust that the action has to handle
as long as barrel is heavy enough, which is why we put on heavy barrel.
You could say that our 12GA FH at 40,000 was the test load.
As case gets bigger diameter bolt thrust goes up.
As for a shorter case built from the bmg brass there is my
700H 3.25" which I have one in Savage now. And one in a
Enfield, and one soon in my first MRC PH action..Ed
 
Hubel 458, thanks for reply, What I am going to put together is a 12-13 pound Savage 210 that approximates the power of the 600 NE. I want a short carry version. For long shooting I have a Weatherby Mark V chambered for the 500 A-Square that was made for the high BC BMG bullets. I am getting 2400 fps out of the 750 grain A-MAX. Energy at 900 yards approximates the 458 win mag at the muzzle. What I am curious about is would a 35,000 PSI 50 BMG reach higher velocities than the A-Square at 60,000, Dave
 
My 12ga FH 35,000 psi 730gr load in Savage got 2800 plus.
My 700H 3.25 got 825gr to 2500. So it'll do more.

We get asked about putting brakes on the NEF Ultra.
There is the concept called the internal brake that works
nearly as good as expansion brake, with less back noise.
Rob on AR did a couple with bunch of holes in the barrel
in the end with the last 1.5" bored out .025" where holes
go. Also many want more velocity in NEf and I added on
a barrel section to mine. Combining Ideas we add smooth
9" section of bore extension, that is same as groove diameter
and 1.5" end of that for internal brake. Eight 1/8" holes
top and same 45 degees to each side.And we have over
a 100 fps in velocity gain. And with card or wad behind load
it will seal pressure going from rifled section to smooth.
And these types of holes won't bother wads or sabots.
My extension is a foot longer and gets 150 fps extra.
No need for brake in mine as the gun is 17 lbs with extra bbl.
Here is Rob's two he fixed up, and is shooting.He has
them reamed out longer for long 3.85", little weight added.Ed

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We have video on youtube listed above of it doing a 6gal
sealed pail of water. Pail disintigrated, huge
water vapor cloud. Ed
 
Here is a picture of porting holes in a 10ga NEF
heavy long smooth barrel. Bbl 30" and 1.080" muzzle
diameter behind the screw in choke area. This come
with slightly extended screw in choke and is first
10ga with long barrel as heavy as my NEF 12ga FH
short barrel was.. OR the short NEF 10 gauges
with heavy barrel..It came with full and mod chokes.
The other 10ga I tested earlier, only .960" at muzzle.
I cut choke off and put it back in leaving the barrel
an open bore for slugs and leaving an area 1.2" long
for an internal brake to drill all the holes in like
Rob did with NEFs in his picture. Now the 1.2" long
area where holes are is bigger than needed for 10 ga
so a reamer in the making will solve that and solve a
major big bore project for me and others who asked
me about using the short NEF 10ga for upgrade, which
I didn't encourage putting all that work on a short
barrel gun, with the amounts of powder that will be
burnt in....are you ready.......THE 8GA FH.......
I have 8ga FH loads tested in reworked Enfield.....Ed

10brake.jpg
 
More info on the heavy barreled gun we plan on
making 8 gauge from. Nef SB2 103, 30" barrel,
regular stock. 220 bucks. 100 bucks for shop to
ream out to 8 ga smoothbore. Needs the 80 dollar
thumbhole stock. Nice deal for a modern 8ga, using
heavy duty plastic 3.3" long cases. I fired 6-8000
ft lb loads in one I made on Enfield, 4 times reloaded
without resizing cases.
Here is other project suggested by Boomie
on the AR big bore forum, the 16GA FH.
Cases made by me from bmg brass. Took 5 swagings, and
two turnings on my case spinner lathe.Two Annealings
Got couple cases made, in picture our 3.5" case and factory
16ga plastic case slug load. I'm getting test gun working
now and as for a supply of cases you all will have to
get with RMC if you want to rechamber a 16ga..Ed

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Here is picture of my NEF 12GA FH as it is now,
A while back I got tired of short barrel and
added a foot on to it. Used breech end of left over
Savage and a sleeve. Lined up rifling and it has
same twist and number of rifling. Hard way to do
it. No need for rifling, or extra line up work.
Run many loads and it adds 150 fps with VV110,
4759, and 4227 powders. Adds about a 100 with
Blue Dot, and HS 7.

Next one will be done different and easier.
Next one will be a smoothbore add on piece of
groove diameter, 10-12 inches long, make it one
piece, 1 or 1 1/16" threads,about 1.2" diameter.
Threaded 1.5" long on original barrel, and into
add on piece, and will look like a brake and you
could put in internal brake in the end.Ed

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Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga
now a 16GA FH. It got a 385 gr to 2000,
which is good for gun without a real heavy
barrel. I lengthened chamber for the
3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from
BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases
made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs.
Action can handle more if barrel heavier. Ed

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