110 gr 357 magnum in a 2-2.25 inch snubnose revolver.

[USSR]

Quote:
With all of the SD Loads available today in 38 and 38+P designed especially for Short Barrel Revolvers, why would anyone need to shoot a .357 in a snub for self defense.

Because it is much more effective.

Please tell me where you find the need for more effectiveness from the .38 Special +P loads in the below pic. The middle bullet was fired at 845fps, while the right hand bullet was fired at 940fps. Both came out of a 2.5" barreled S&W.

Don

 

[Nanuk]

Please tell me where you find the need for more effectiveness from the .38 Special +P loads in the below pic.

Just looking at an expanded lead bullet is extremely over simplistic. What does this one tell you?

 

[USSR]

Hmm, 158gr lead hollowpoint at about 900fps, fully expanded and staying together. Certainly not going to be stopped by a dime.

Don

 

[Nanuk]

Hmm, 158gr lead hollowpoint at about 900fps, fully expanded and staying together. Certainly not going to be stopped by a dime.

It was not stopped by the quarter, it is there as a size comparison. What load data are you using to get 900 fps from a 158 grain bullet fired from a 38 special with a @" barrel?

 

[USSR]

Nanuk,

The middle bullet load was 6.4gr of AA#5 with a standard primer for 845fps. And the right hand bullet load was 7.0gr of HS-6 with a magnum primer for 940fps. The bullets were cast by me using a high tin, low antimony alloy. The commercial casters make their bullets too hard simply because antimony is cheap and tin is expensive. I estimate the BHN of these bullets to be ~8.

Don

 

[Nanuk]

The middle bullet load was 6.4gr of AA#5 with a standard primer for 845fps. And the right hand bullet load was 7.0gr of HS-6 with a magnum primer for 940fps. The bullets were cast by me using a high tin, low antimony alloy. The commercial casters make their bullets too hard simply because antimony is cheap and tin is expensive. I estimate the BHN of these bullets to be ~8.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

The max charge is 6.3 for a velocity @ 1000 fps from a 7.7" test barrel.

The thread is about the 357 magnum, specifically the 110 grain JHP fired from a 2" barrel. My guess is that your 158's are doing about 600-650 from a 2" barrel. With that kind of expansion at that kind of velocity you are not going to get reliable, consistent penetration in 2 legged threats. Remember, we are talking self defense here, not hunting. The two are very different in philosophy and execution.

 

[TruthTellers]

That has to do with skill level, not effectiveness. My split times with magnums are virtually identical to my split times with 38 specials when fired from the same gun. Have you shot in competition or on the clock so you actually have an idea?

No, it doesn't have everything to do with skill level as some people are physically incapable of being able to handle the recoil of .357 in a snub. I can practice as much as anyone else, but when my hand has gone numb and is shaking like a leaf after 20 rounds of .357, I can't do any more practical training because I'm not in a physical state that I'd ever be in in the event of a DGU.

Who said anything about missing? Again, that is a matter of skill not platform. Anyone can shoot a 22 good.

Some people can't shoot good at all, even if it's a .22. Wrong.

 

[USSR]

Quote:
The middle bullet load was 6.4gr of AA#5 with a standard primer for 845fps. And the right hand bullet load was 7.0gr of HS-6 with a magnum primer for 940fps. The bullets were cast by me using a high tin, low antimony alloy. The commercial casters make their bullets too hard simply because antimony is cheap and tin is expensive. I estimate the BHN of these bullets to be ~8.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

The max charge is 6.3 for a velocity @ 1000 fps from a 7.7" test barrel.

The thread is about the 357 magnum, specifically the 110 grain JHP fired from a 2" barrel. My guess is that your 158's are doing about 600-650 from a 2" barrel. With that kind of expansion at that kind of velocity you are not going to get reliable, consistent penetration in 2 legged threats. Remember, we are talking self defense here, not hunting. The two are very different in philosophy and execution.

Nanuk,

While the OP asks about a 110gr .357 Magnum load, he also mentions the possible use of a .38 Special load as well. And, there are a lot of comments questioning the use of a light weight .357 Magnum bullet in a snubbie of which I am in agreement. First, you get the max charge and velocity wrong (it is 6.6gr of HS-6 with a velocity of 926fps for the .38 Special +P load), then you obviously fail to understand that those numbers are for a jacketed 158gr bullet, not a lead bullet (for which the max load is 7.2gr), and finally you make the ludicrous claim that my FBI Load, of which I chronographed personally, is traveling at less than factory wadcutter ammo. I can only conclude that you are woefully lacking when it comes to ballistics.

Don

 

[TBM900]

Your "facts" are wrong.

Yet you failed to factually refute any them

The 357 magnum adds about 500 fps to any 38 load using the same bullets.

At no point did I even mention velocity

Blast and recoil are range issues, not fight issues.

So the laws of physics cease to exist during a 'fight'?
Yes, excessive blast and recoil tend to significantly limit people's practice

Not trump, augment.

Yes trump... each and every time... without exception

Your experience must be vastly different from mine.

PM and we can share details without crapping up this thread
After 400+ autopsies and many more Doc consults I've got piles and piles of files, notes, reports, photos, etc. Should be great fun, care to join me?

I have seen lots of people shot, many with the 38 wadcutter. it would be about the LAST round I would recommend to anyone, especially in a snubby

That statement alone tells me you have no actual first hand experience with the cartridge, or its performance, in living things (along with the fps comment above)

 

[Nanuk]

And, there are a lot of comments questioning the use of a light weight .357 Magnum bullet in a snubbie of which I am in agreement.

I have actually seen people shot with these.

First, you get the max charge and velocity wrong (it is 6.6gr of HS-6 with a velocity of 926fps for the .38 Special +P load), then you obviously fail to understand that those numbers are for a jacketed 158gr bullet, not a lead bullet (for which the max load is 7.2gr),

I linked the latest Hodgdon load data. "I" did not get it wrong, you or they did.

and finally you make the ludicrous claim that my FBI Load, of which I chronographed personally, is traveling at less than factory wadcutter ammo.

I have been reloading for 40 years and carrying a gun for just as long. You tell me one load from any gun that fires from a 7.7" barrel and a 2" barrel at the same velocity?

I can only conclude that you are woefully lacking when it comes to ballistics.

Its not my numbers that are in question, unless Hodgdon has it all wrong.

 

[Nanuk]

Yet you failed to factually refute any them

357 out of a snub is generally a waste for self defense

Opinion, not fact. The fact is that the 357 magnum has 2X the energy of the 38 Special. Where that becomes important is how fast a BG stops fighting. The history is there.

Unless of course you just have to have tons of flash, blast, and recoil
And love pounding yourself silly trying to get any sort of meaningful practice

So the laws of physics cease to exist during a 'fight'?
Yes, excessive blast and recoil tend to significantly limit people's practice

Blast and recoil are range issues. Have you ever shot a deer? Do you remember the gun being loud? The recoil? If you are that intimidated maybe magnums are not for you.

Even 38 +P loadings are really more bothersome than they are worth

Maybe to you. Proper technique can help mitigate recoil.

At no point did I even mention velocity

The Underwood you mentioned is a semi-wadcutter, not a full wadcutter
A typical 148gr WC isn't powdered to high-pressure
Velocity sweet spot is around 700fps

Make up your mind.You did but I was not responding to you with that comment. It seems all out of context.

PM and we can share details without crapping up this thread
After 400+ autopsies and many more Doc consults I've got piles and piles of files, notes, reports, photos, etc. Should be great fun, care to join me?

Normally yes, but today I have to drive 100 miles and rebuild the bathroom floor in my daughters house that had a catastrophic failure.

That statement alone tells me you have no actual first hand experience with the cartridge, or its performance, in living things (along with the fps comment above)

Really? I was a street cop in a violent Texas inner city and the with the Border Patrol. I can assure you I have seen my share of people shot. Lots of hood rats carried 38's back in the day. Pawn shops sold single rounds....

 

[USSR]

Quote:
And, there are a lot of comments questioning the use of a light weight .357 Magnum bullet in a snubbie of which I am in agreement.

I have actually seen people shot with these.

And more people have been killed with a .22 rimfire than any other cartridge. That don't make the .22 rimfire a good defensive cartridge.

Quote:
First, you get the max charge and velocity wrong (it is 6.6gr of HS-6 with a velocity of 926fps for the .38 Special +P load), then you obviously fail to understand that those numbers are for a jacketed 158gr bullet, not a lead bullet (for which the max load is 7.2gr),

I linked the latest Hodgdon load data. "I" did not get it wrong, you or they did.

I used the very link you provided. Use it yourself and you will see. But if you don't understand that their data is for a jacketed bullet, then you are missing the boat.

Quote:
and finally you make the ludicrous claim that my FBI Load, of which I chronographed personally, is traveling at less than factory wadcutter ammo.

I have been reloading for 40 years and carrying a gun for just as long. You tell me one load from any gun that fires from a 7.7" barrel and a 2" barrel at the same velocity?

I have also been reloading for 40 years, and have been an NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor for the past 3 years. Please quote where I ever said that velocities are the same for a long barrel and a short barrel. First, you have to understand that with all other things being equal (as in bullet weight, charge weight, etc.), a lead bullets velocity will exceed a jacketed bullets. Second, I am using more powder than the jacketed bullet while remaining within the max load parameter for a lead bullet. Lastly, velocities will vary from one gun to another even though they may have the same barrel length.

Don

 

[briandg]

My experience with the 110 grain .357 magnum load is that it is a terrible round to fire even in full framed revolvers. My personal choice would be to purchase +P rounds for the .38 special in the 158 or 125 grain in premium controlled expansion format. Plenty of them around at moderate cost. This can and in most cases will disable or kill a person hit in an easily damaged area.

I have made it clear several times that I don't believe in the term 'under gunned.' Comparing different rounds that are appropriate for self defense few hundred fps, adding or sacrificing 200 fps or increasing/decreasing 20-30 grains is pretty much irrelevant when all of the other random factors are added in. Factors like hitting the target in a dangerous area.

There are only a few more unnecessarily dangerous things when setting up a defensive plan than to put together a gun and ammunition combination that aren't appropriate to the owner.

You don't like to use the magnum rounds and you have poor accuracy performance with that gun. When you add in the bodacious muzzle blast and the blinding flash to the harsh recoil, you create a potential danger that you may fail to survive the encounter.

The chances that you will die in a gunfight because you carried a +p round in that revolver instead of a full magnum round are very low.

The FBI reported 11,000 deaths by firearms in 2016. (not an absolutely accurate figure due to statistical and gathering flaws) Now out of those thousands of people, how many deaths can reasonably be credited to people using a fully capable defensive round that failed to stop the attacker, but would have certainly survived if a more powerful or effective round was used? Seriously, ten? Twenty? None?

Your chances of being killed in a automobile accident are a bit higher. There were about 38,000 deaths in motor vehicle accidents in that same year.

I'm going to toss out an obviously non scientifically chosen assessment. Maybe that puts the general number of preventable gun deaths sustained in fights with inadequate defensive rounds at ten per year. Death by automobile is 38,000. What is that number, .00025%?

I expect that in Joplin, my chances of dying at the hands of a drunken left handed swedish fisherman are far greater than the chance that I, a pretty capable shooter/carrier, will die because I carried my .38 instead of my .357.

Anybody can challenge my stats, fine and dandy, they may be incorrect, but the principle remains correct.

 

[dontcatchmany]

briandg,

Now you got me worried....lol! I am a lefthanded southern American fisherman...….not Swedish.

Ok, my 357 magnum 110 gr ammo arrived today. Remington High Terminal Performance. Immediately put 12 rounds through the Kimber K6S at my back yard range.

It is tolerable, and actually pretty accurate at 8 yards. All 12 rounds within a round (actually two targets) 8" target.

It is tolerable but I would not want to shoot that load all day. I will save it for my 627 4" and try it in my 2.25 inch SP101.

Going to stick with 38 special loads in the Kimber. Just had to try the 110 gr 357 magnum in it though.

Age (71) and 5 weeks removed from radiation/chemotherapy for upper throat cancer has greatly removed a lot of strength. I think that my grip strength being reduced is what causes me to be inaccurate with the smaller gripped Kimber. Do not have that problem with sub compact Semi-autos.

 

[jfruser]

dontcatchmany:

I, too, own a snubby in .357mag., a lightweight titanium deal. I found that going UP in bullet weight made for easier shooting in full-power magnums.

Never played much with 110gr in .38 or .357. I am partial to heavier bullets in revolvers.

Shooting 125gr .357mag was like getting hit in the palm with a fastball. Muzzle & cyl gap blast was oppressive to the point I clear the shooting stations next to me. Full power 158gr was easier and my hand and muzzle blast was milder, too.

The easiest-shooting full-power commercial .357mag ammo I shot was the Winchester 180gr Nosler Partition hollow point. 1000fps 10' off the muzzle. Also was super-accurate and POI=POA at self-defense distances.

I also experimented with .38spl and .38spl+P. Underwood's & Buffalo Bore's 158gr +P LSWC @1000fps kind of made a happy middle ground between standard .38spl and full power magnums. Next down line, the Remington FBI Load 158gr +P LSWC @~800fps. Then standard pressure Rem 158gr LSWC. Lastly, the 148gr Fed tgt wadcutter.

One I have not tried that might help you is the Rem Golden Saber 125gr .357mag. It is a mild/moderate magnum, not full power.

My current solution is the Underwood 158gr +P LSWC @1000fps for snubbies and the Remington FBI Load 158gr +P LSWC, which get nearly up to 1000fps in 4" bbl revolvers in the house. Every once and a while I think I might go to the 148gr targt wadcutter, but not yet. That is what my wife shoots from HER snubbies.

=============

As for some of the flack upthread:

1. Yes, .357mag out of a snubby shows significant velocity gains relative to ..38spl & .38spl +P from a snubby. Many chrono tests by many folk have shown this.

2. .38spl 148gr target wadcutters at 700fps are not going to inflict as much damage as .357mag 158gr JHP at 1400fps. But, given circumstances, 148gr tgt wadcutters may be the right answer, or at least a better answer. They sure beat a .22LR or harsh language.

================

Good luck to you.

 

[Lohman446]

If I am ever in a position where I need the advantage of .357 over .38 for self defense I am going to wish I had a lot more than 5 or 6 rounds in the gun. The whole "you need more than the .38" argument can rapidly morph into "you need more than 5" IMO.

 

[dontcatchmany]

jfruser,

Thank you!

The funny thing is that in my Shields and a couple of other small semi-autos I like 45 acp and 40 S&W as well as 357 Sig. I have no problem with their recoil or muzzle flip or recoil and am very accurate with them. Only periodically use 9mm.

I am looking into some of the wadcutters and have some from Underwood that I mentioned above. Just got to make up my mind on what brand wadcutter and full or semi or what.

The 38 special is actually very much fun since I had not paid much attention to it previously. I am learning more about revolvers or shooting the ones I have. Do not carry them often. My wife has a LCR 327 and she carries a form of 32. I will probably give the Kimber to her.

At any rate, I shot the 110 gr 357 magnum SJHP today and have pretty much answered my question in the original post. Thanks again for your reply.

 

[Nanuk]

I expect that in Joplin, my chances of dying at the hands of a drunken left handed swedish fisherman are far greater than the chance that I, a pretty capable shooter/carrier, will die because I carried my .38 instead of my .357.

You miss the point. The 357 mag is significantly more effective that the 38 special when comparing apples to apples. You just cannot wish that away, you can rationalize all you want but it will never change that fact. The ONLY difference between the two is velocity, that generally gives the 357 twice the energy of the 38.

There is a school of thought that says if we cannot duplicate it in the lab we will marginalize it. If the bullet has multiple projectiles from fragments we cannot measure the wound cavity as easy so we will marginalize it.

I prefer to use rounds that have a good street cred, those that have worked it tens of thousands of shootings and worked on people over a broad range of variables time and again. The 357 magnum is one such cartridge.

 

[briandg]

I hope that you come through the cancer quickly and properly. it sounds like you have a plan for your gun now.

 

[Nanuk]

I have also been reloading for 40 years, and have been an NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor for the past 3 years.

Ok, lets see. I am also an NRA instructor. If I wanted the same cert I would take a small what 2 hour online course from the NRA? You make it sound like you are a mechanical engineer.

You gave the velocity of 900 FPS or so, not looking back at all the threads. We are talking about a 2" barrel. Just so we are clear are your velocity figures are from a 2" or a 6" barrel? It is relevant.

Yes I may have linked the wrong data jacketed vs lead, so sorry I was in a hurry.