10MM for Woods Gun?

[Walt Sherrill]

If REALLY big bears are in the woods, this is what I would use

Looks as though that bear could cover almost the full 30 years pretty quickly... as it wouldn't be that far from the muzzle when it started!!

 

[NateKirk]

Quote:
As My 20 or whatever semi u have comes out of its holster u drop it, onto the leaves, dry dirt,wet dirt,leaves, twigs a partridge bones get caught somewhere inside, what do we have to do?

I think my chances of doing six head-shots out of my 275gn 1200fps .44 on the coordinated attack by 6 grizzlies are greater than a semi like a Glock jamming up after being dropped on the forest leaf-litter floor, even if I have stumbled upon a secret partridge cemetery.

You actually understood what he said?

 

[agtman]

So 10,000 dudes just re-read Sliclee's post ... and they went, like, ...

 

[agtman]

Even the kids are asking: ... "Dude said WUT???"

 

[walks with gun]

Drugs, booze and keyboards don't seem to go well together.

 

[Dashunde]

So here's my take on it...
If you buy a 10mm your pigeon holed into a somewhat uncommon round and it might be hard to sell later, or if you keep guns forever ammo may be an issue many, many years from now.
Simply put... which is easier to sell, more commmon, and ammo is always available? A G21 or a G20?

Take all that into account and consider there is the 45 Super...
Using Buffalo Bore's hard cast info:
10mm Woodsman 220gr does 1140fps
45 Super Woodsman 255gr does 1090fps

They're about equal.
All you need to do is add a recoil buffer and maybe a stronger spring to the G21.
Neither are a high volume round anyway, so occasionally running Super through a G21 shouldn't tear it up.

If you were looking at 1911's or some other gun platform, I'd probably go with the 10mm.

 

[Pond James Pond]

You actually understood what he said?

It took a while and about a month's worth of empathy but I got there...

 

[silvermane_1]

The new Ruger Bisley 5 shot 480 looks tempting. A 440 grain pill going 1200 fps should put anything down.

^ that or one in 454, or maybe a G20/29sf/c as the next HG, however i would like to convert my SR1911 CMD to 10mm and/or 45Super/450SMC and/or 22lr.

 

[agtman]

If you buy a 10mm your pigeon holed into a somewhat uncommon round and it might be hard to sell later, or if you keep guns forever ammo may be an issue many, many years from now. * * *

Dude, seriously?

Apart from the third 10mm gun Glock just added to its line-up, Sig has four new 10mms in production - 3 SAOs and 1 DA/SA.

How is it an "uncommon" round again?

Take all that into account and consider there is the 45 Super...
Using Buffalo Bore's hard cast info:
10mm Woodsman 220gr does 1140fps
45 Super Woodsman 255gr does 1090fps

.45 Super? Dude, both the regional Cabela's and the local Gander Mt. have like 6 or 7 makes of 10mm ammo on their shelves right now. They have exactly NADA in .45 Super. It makes 10mm ammo look as ubiquitous as 9mm and .40S&W.

 

[stagpanther]

agtman--if you keep up the "dude" stuff you are going to have to change your handle to something like "The Big Glockski" and start drinking white russians.

 

[agtman]

agtman--if you keep up the "dude" stuff you are going to have to change your handle to something like "The Big Glockski" and start drinking white russians.

Actually, now that I think about it, you're probably right.

 

[2450paul]

10mm woods gun

JD Berg hit the nail on the head!

 

[agtman]

Glock 40 MOS Reviews ...

Several reviews and range reports on the new 10mm G40 have been posted on GlockTalk's 10Ring as well as on other gunboards.

Check 'em out. More will follow, I'm sure ...

In getting range time with mine, I was cramped on time, but FWIW, here's my review:

http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/my-g40-mos-a-review.1592505/

 

[Ruger45LC]

One good thing about the .45 Super is that as long as you have a .45 ACP you can shoot .45 Super from it as it doesn't require a special barrel for basic .45 Super loads. If you reload, the .45 Super is definitely more powerful than the 10mm.

I have a comped G21 that will shoot a 250gr .45gr XTP to over 1300 fps using .45 Super (5" KKM bbl), but that's a different beast than "standard" .45 Super and identical ballistics to the 460 Rowland.

The 10mm isn't a bad option at all and I understand that it's some folks favorite, but again what will it absolutely work against that the .40 S&W and .45 ACP absolutely won't? A 10mm isn't needed, it's capable but no more so than what's already out there.

 

[Ruger45LC]

You're talking about hot rodded hand loads. Not exactly standard fare.

Yes it is cherry picked, but the thing is, when 10mm guys speak their language, they cherry pick too and my numbers reflect that fairly over several cartridges, not just one.
If you don't handload, the 10mm is better by a wider margin. If you do, the 10mm is still faster, but only by ~100-125 fps. I've loaded enough hot 10mm to know what it will do and I've loaded enough hot .40 to know what it will do, and both loaded hot (again keeping a fair comparison), there isn't a huge difference, not enough in my mind to justify the added cost of the 10mm.

Yes, anybody can cherry-pick data using their tailored handloads, especially when a custom, longer-than-stock-length .40 barrel is involved.

And as far as factory .40 ammo using a 200gn bullet, only McNett at DT makes one. It's a 200gn XTP @ 1050fps, as chrono-ed out of a G22.

While that's a decent "heavyweight" load for a .40, the same bullet-weight in 10mm, shot out of a stock G20, easily does 200fps-250fps better.

The only thing is, and someone else said this earlier in the thread, some ammo makers are pushing the get every last drop out of the 10mm. A 200gr 10mm @ 1300 fps is HOT HOT HOT from a 5" bbl and not done very "easily". I'm not saying a 200gr at 1050 is easy for a .40, but it's easier done that a 200gr 10mm doing 1300. A 200gr .40 at 1050 is about as easy to acheive (from a 4" bbl) as a 200gr 10mm doing 1200 (from a 4.6" bbl), not absolute max but warm enough. You can squeeze another 100 fps out of each in standard 4-4.5" barrels, but it'll make them both nuclear hot for not a much gain in killing potential.

 

[Ruger45LC]

It has more to do with what caliber in this class has the most advantage.... as I stated earlier the 10 as a "woods gun" has more options available in commercial loads better suited for the task that deliver more energy downrange. There are some 10mm loads that have more energy at 100 yards than the 40 does at the muzzle. The smaller sectional density with the higher velocity means it should penetrate thick skinned heavy boned animals (like bear) better at close range and the higher energy at 100 yds is a better contender for hunting and self defense where in the woods one is more likely to be up against longer shots and heavier clothing.

its not that other calibers wouldn’t work its that the 10 has more of an advantage, all other factors being equal.

Energy is meaningless if the bullet isn't up to the task, and 99.9% of all .400" bullets are designed around the .40 S&W. If one takes a hot 10mm shooting a 200gr XTP @ 1400 fps from a 6" barrel and a hot .40 shooting the same 200gr XTP @ 1275 fps from a 6" barrel, what difference is that when the bullet is only rated to around 1200 fps? The 10mm will likely penetrate less since it's overworking the bullet somewhat, but either way the penetration won't be much different at all, likely . If we switch that over to 200gr hardcasts, it's even less as both will penetrated sufficiently.

 

[agtman]

* * * 99.9% of all .400" bullets are designed around the .40 S&W.. If one takes a hot 10mm shooting a 200gr XTP @ 1400 fps from a 6" barrel and a hot .40 shooting the same 200gr XTP @ 1275 fps from a 6" barrel, what difference is that when the bullet is only rated to around 1200 fps? * * *

That's always been an exaggerated claim. The 10mm AUTO was introduced in 1983. Fact is, and in fairness to the 10mm, projectile-development for it never got very far before the .40 was introduced in late 1990, mainly because the Bren Ten was so short-lived and Colt didn't introduce the Delta Elite until 1987. Only after the FBI adopted the 10mm did you start seeing more pistols being chambered for it ... That said, several companies did create bullets for the 10mm, in fact ...

Hornady's 200 XTP & FMJ-FP bullets were specifically designed to penetrate (and the XTP to expand reliably) @ 10mm velocities, and Hornady originally loaded them in its factory ammo (late 80s-early 90s) to just shy of 1200fps. Remington made some of the first 180gn JHPs for 10mm velocities, and Wincester's ancient 175gn STHP was designed for fast mushrooming at just under 1300fps. Federal introduced the first bonded bullet in 10mm for L.E. use - that being a 190gn JHP, although it was quite downloaded by then (1050fps from a S&W 1076's 4.25" barrel).

The 10mm will likely penetrate less since it's overworking the bullet somewhat, but either way the penetration won't be much different at all, likely . If we switch that over to 200gr hardcasts, it's even less as both will penetrated sufficiently.

McNett's use of proprietary hybrid propellants is what allows his DT 200gn .40S&W ammo to get to 1050fps without Kabooming! DT's 200gn 10mm loads are 200+fps faster, giving better penetration with the same bullet. That's cut and dried.

In cast loads, the 10mm can push HC boolits of 200gns, 210gns, 220gns, and 230gns all to speeds that would turn the same load in a .40 pistol into a hand grenade.

The problem with people who try to equivocate over cherry-picked .40 loads as being "almost as good as a 10mm" is that in the real-world - using real pistols having the same barrel-length - the chrono data simply doesn't back up the claim.

And a .40 load topped with a heavy-weight slug (i.e., 200gns or more), hot-rodded to real 10mm velocities, is simply inviting a Kaboom!