10mm and 45ACP

Who in their right mind cares what the average of "the lowest 25% of commercial loadings."
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You alleged the reason that the average 10mm loading was 8% hotter than the average .357Mag loading was that the low end of the .357Mag loadings were "considerably milder" than the 10mm loads. I showed that they were not using actual numbers instead of just handwaving.

It wasn't something that I was particularly interested in--based on your earlier post, it appears that you are the person who cares about comparing "Low-end .357 Magnum rounds to "low-end 10mm rounds". If you want to suggest another specific method of comparison, I can post the results of that.

You are correct that the lightest .357Mag commercial loading available is lower than the lightest 10mm commercial loading. However, given the wide variance in loading practices across the worldwide ammunition industry, comparing a single loading from one company with a single loading from another company doesn't provide much information for comparison unless those two particular loadings are all that interest you.
The bottom line is the .357 Magnum and 10mm are for all practical purposes ballistic twins.
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I believe I said that in so many words and quantified the very small average differences in the two calibers to prove it.
Somebody really needs to get a life.
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The reason I compiled these numbers is because there was a lot of incorrect and misleading information being posted on various forums. I thought people might benefit if I posted hard data providing comprehensive comparisons of certain calibers instead of just making sweeping generalizations or comparing one or two specific loadings or manufacturers.

Maybe you don't like what the numbers say, but that doesn't make it useless or a waste of time.
 
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I own both a G20 and a G21, had 'em both for a good number of years. If you're going to shoot HEAVY loads in the G20, you'll want a heavier recoil spring for sure--and an aftermarket bbl for better case support. Without a bbl that provides better support than the stock Glock bbl, you won't be reloading the brass very many times.

Now, if the crystal ball told me "today is the day that you will NEED your gun", NO QUESTION FOR ME, I would grab the 10mm with some hot 180gr truncated cone FMJ's or maybe alternate the mag with 180gr HP's mixed in--profiles are nearly identical. I've fooled around with these on various materials, and I gotta say they impress me like no other auto loader that I've seen. As to performance on living things, I belong to the Clint Smith school of reasoning that "two big bleeding holes are better than one".

As to the guy comparing the 10mm to a 357maggie (I have numerous 357's too, out of which I've also shot up to 180gr handloads) I will say not much of a comparison in my book (from the destructive power that I've personally witnessed). SIXTEEN rounds of bigger, hotter 10mm compared to six--easy decision. Regards,

NS
 
another interesting thread... though... my eyes did glaze over when we got into upper / lower % bla bla bla...

... generally I find the whole topic interesting though... hmm... 38 special vrs 357 mag ( if the velocity doesn't really matter )

... 2 bleeding holes, vrs expending 100% of the bullets energy into the target...

If I were buying another gun, to use just for self defense... it would be a big bore... likely a 44 special... but that is only because I don't shoot 45 acp well...

provided the 1st hole is of sufficient size, then I prefer to capture all the bullets energy into the target....

if I were buying a gun for use in the woods, as well as self defense, the 10 mm would be close to top the list, edged out by the 357 mag, again because I shoot wheel guns better...

if I were after an auto for self defense, & capacity were important, I'd probably choose the 40 S&W...
 
Hot-loaded .357 Magnum rounds are slightly "hotter" than hot-loaded 10mm rounds
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The only round I know that has greater FPS and FPE than the doubletap rounds are buffalo bore. Are there any others? For almost all of the commercially available rounds, the 10mm wins.

I totally disagree that the 10mm loses shootablility for the added power. I find the G-20 easily tames even the doubletap rounds and have seen teenage girls shoot the gun quite well. Saying that the 10mm adds nothing to the .45acp as a manstopper is not quite true. You keep saying the 10 is the twin to .357mag, which I will agree they are pretty close. There are several polls running on these forums and over 60% of folks say that the .357mag is a superior manstopper than the .45. If the 10mm is the ballistic twin than everyone is talking out of both sides of their mouth. The 10mm is a 16 round bottom feeder .357mag.

Don't believe the 10mm has anything to add up close? Take a look at the gelatin results of the 135, 155, and 165gr rounds now available. Look at the ballistics and gelatin results for yourself. Don't listen to any of the OPINIONs rendered from folks entrenched with their favorite caliber, then decide for yourself.:cool:
 
Buffalo Bore sells two .357Mag loadings that beat the hottest 10mm loading on the commercial market (from Double Tap). One by 2%, the other by 4.5%
 
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I find the G-20 easily tames even the doubletap rounds and have seen teenage girls shoot the gun quite well.
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With double taps? I've never shot them but I've been told they are quite snappy.

There are several polls running on these forums and over 60% of folks say that the .357mag is a superior manstopper than the .45.
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If it was called the .38 Standard Revolver+ people would overwhelmingly side with the .45. The .357 still carries a lot of weight from when the average lawman carried a .38 special.

Here's a comparison of the DT .357 magnum load versus the .45 acp load:
12.75" / .69" (357)
15.25" / .95" (.45 ACP)
 
There are several polls running on these forums and over 60% of folks say that the .357mag is a superior manstopper than the .45.
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Should one be amused or sad that someone actually believes the polls on these forums are a source of credible information? :rolleyes:
I find the G-20 easily tames even the doubletap rounds and have seen teenage girls shoot the gun quite well.
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I remember the first time I gave my teenage sister my Super Blackhawk. She shot it quite well: That didn't mean the Super Blackhawk tamed the .44 Magnum--it merely meant that she could shoot. :rolleyes:
 
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That didn't mean the Super Blackhawk tamed the .44 Magnum--it merely meant that she could shoot
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True, but in this case, the teenager then shot my GP-100, and it nearly put her on her butt, and she was shaking her had because it hurt. That is the difference.

Should one be amused or sad that someone actually believes the polls on these forums are a source of credible information
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If you choose to call the folks at THR idiots who don't know what they are talking about, fine go ahead, but the ballistics don't lie.:rolleyes:

Don't knock it unless you have shot a G-20 before.
 
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Do you really believe these polls are a source of valid data? :rolleyes:

I don't believe I called "the folks at THR" (or TFL for that matter :) ) "idiots who don't know what they are talking about" (but I'm not too sure about people who don't even know where they are). ;)
 
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i'll agree with the others that have already said it. 10mm ammo is sparse to put it lightly. check your local area for availablity. i'd hate to see you run out on the range and not have a place to buy more that doesn't take two weeks to get to you from an internet dealer.
 
Saying that the 10mm adds nothing to the .45acp as a manstopper is not quite true. You keep saying the 10 is the twin to .357mag, which I will agree they are pretty close. There are several polls running on these forums and over 60% of folks say that the .357mag is a superior manstopper than the .45. If the 10mm is the ballistic twin than everyone is talking out of both sides of their mouth. The 10mm is a 16 round bottom feeder .357mag.
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I would argue that the 10mm _should_ have higher stopping power than the standard .357 Magnum 125 grain JHP. Energy is only part of the story. The old police load .357 Magnum is from before the FBI got us all concerned with sufficient penetration. It expands violently and dumps a lot of energy fast. IMO, the penetration is "good enough" but a hot 10mm is going to give you more. Plus it has a larger diameter bullet to start with. Heavier as well.

Again IMO, the 10mm is probably the most effective manstopper we've got that doesn't look like it needs a bipod mounted under the barrel. You get all that power in something like a high capacity G20. That's a significant upgrade from a S&W M19. How fast could the average shooter dump six max .357 Magnum loads on target with a four inch M19 compared to the G20? And the G20 is ready to just keep going after that while the revolver guy is reloading. But the 10mm with the best loads is more than what the average CCW person should really be carrying. The guns are too big. They recoil too much. So I see the 10mm as the professional's choice. I'm sure you will find the occasional mall ninja with a 10mm but I usually find that 10mm users are far above average shooters.

I don't carry 10mm myself because of the whole gun size and weight issue. I wouldn't find the recoil to be a limitation. I shoot several times a week and have for decades so I can adapt to anything. But I'm not willing to carry something that big all the time. Although I've looked at the G29 more than once!!

My favorite 10mm advocacy article: http://www.greent.com/40Page/ammo/10/10mm-advoc.htm

Gregg
 
So I see the 10mm as the professional's choice
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I use to think the same way. Now my Colt's commander 1911 45ACP is what accompany me 95% of the time. It's not the most accurate auto I have in the inventory, I have a custom 10mm 1911 and a Para 40 that will group 2" or less at 25 yards all day long. It's not the most powerful pistol I have in the inventory, I own three 357 mag revolvers and two 10mm pistols. But it is the most comfortable pistol with enough assurance it will take the bad guys out at handgun fighting distances. josh
 
I use to think the same way. Now my Colt's commander 1911 45ACP is what accompany me 95% of the time.
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My writing wasn't explicit enough. I didn't mean that "a profession WOULD pick a 10mm over anything else." I meant that people who DO tend to carry 10mm's usually turn out to be "serious gun people." I agree that a vast majority of such "serious gun people" will be carrying something other than 10mm. But it doesn't seem that very many mall ninjas or wannabes carry 10mm. They may TRY for a short period of time but the weight of the guns usually outweighs the "cool factor" in short order!

So, if I discover that somebody is actually carrying a 10mm, that is usually one positive "mark" in my subconscious evaluation of them.

Gregg
 
IMO don't purchase a 10mm unless you are, or will be a reloader. Ammo is much more expensive and much harder to find. 10mm is great to load because of all the possible combinations. For the price of a case of Double Taps you could have a nice reloading setup.

I own a 10mm mainly because of the flat trajectory. When I hunt, I sometimes need to shoot out to 100 yards. A hot-n-heavy 10mm has a negative 1" trajectory where as the .45 ACP ball ammo is dropping fast at a negative 7-8” at the same distance. This is not relevant for defensive situations, but for my needs, very relevant.
 
10mm vs 45acp

Me personaly favoring the 10mm, i think the 10mm out does the 45acp in almost every way.I know for a fact that the 10mm will kill a bear not saying the 45 wont.One thing i do not like about the 10mm is its a very snappy calibier.For example a 10mm can knock over steel poppers at 75 yards:eek:
 
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