10mm and 45ACP

H

hot sauce

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This thread is not intended to start a caliber war! :D I hear a lot of people say 10mm beats the 45acp in every way. I thinking about purchasing a Glock 21"glocks problem child" but I am curious about the 10mm Glock 20. I have not shot a 10mm before and I do not know anyone that has one.How much more powerfull is it? How much more recoil does the 10mm have? Is it true that the 10mm beats up a gun faster? I have not heard any horror stories about the 10mm either. Does anyone have personel experience of a KB with the 20? Thanks.
 
The 10mm will generate about the power of the .357 magnum. Recoil will be snappy. I don't own a Glock 20, but have 2 friends that shoots one. One is a 4 year old model that is shot right much and neither of the 2 have caused any problems. Probably the biggest trick to them is a heavy recoil spring to control the slide. I do shoot the cartridge in a S&W M610 ( a N-frame revolver) and it shoots on par with a N-frame .357 magnum revolver.
 
Theres basically two flavors of 10mm, the FBI load which is not hard on the gun and then full power loads which could accelerate wear a little. I really wouldnt worry about it though expecially in a Glock. I had a Glock 21 that never gave me any problems at all and I wish I still had it. Both are exellent guns though and you'd be well served with either. The 45acp will be easier to find ammo for but the 10mm will hold a few more rounds and can double as an outdoors gun with full power loads that are more powerfull than any 357mag. Both are identical in size. The FBI load is not intimidating so I wouldnt be worried about recoil if you'd like to try the 10mm. Good luck
 
I don't want any flames so I will not comment on the ballistics of the 10mm vs the .45. Look them up yourself. The 10mm ranges from a high .357mag to a low .41cal. The FBI lite rounds are a waste of resources, you may as well get a .40cal. Recoil is very subjective. I find that the G-20 tames the recoil quite nicely and is not as bad as my GP-100. I did research on handguns for several years before deciding on the G-20, 10mm. Not my only one, but the one that serves my role as chairman of the department of home defense. 16 rounds of 10mm is an awesome package and a lot of firepower.:D :cool:
 
The 10mm ranges from a high .357mag to a low .41cal.
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Just for the sake of clarity, the 10mm does not fall between the .357 Magnum and .41 Magnum is terms of power. The 10mm and .357 Magnum are for all practical purposes ballistic twins. A hot .357 Magnum load will exceed a lower (mild) .41 Magnum load (as does a hot 10mm load). A hot .41 Magnum easily outstrips them both.
The FBI lite rounds are a waste of resources
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Actually, the lighter loaded 10mm rounds are probably better choices for personal defence than the hot loads some boutiques peddle. There is absolutely nothing to indicate the hotter rounds are any more effective in an anti-personnel role, but they do decrease shootability somewhat. FWIW, probably the best personal defence/general purpose 10mm load is the medium-loaded 175-grain Silvertip (and the Federal Hydra-Shok has proven itself in actual usage LE/personal defence as well).
 
The "medium loaded" Silvertip is the third most energetic 10mm round loaded by a big name maker (omitting those pesky boutiques ;) ). CorBon has the two hottest loads--they exceed the Silvertip by about 7%.

The Federal HS 10mm round is the third from the bottom of 10mm commercial loadings measured by energy. It's actually less energetic than half the .40S&W loadings on the market.

The .357Mag can be loaded to have about 5% more energy than the 10mm, but the average 10mm loading has about 9% more energy than the average .357Mag loading. That's pretty significant if you consider that about half the commercial 10mm loadings do not make any use of the 10mm's considerable energy/velocity advantage over the .40S&W.

The .41Mag is in a different league--its average loading turns in about 34% more energy than the average 10mm load. Interestingly enough, in spite of that, the top 10mm loads' energy numbers will trump more than a quarter of the commercial .41Mag loads on the market. Which, I guess would make a statement like "the 10mm ranges to a low .41 Magnum" perfectly correct although juliet charley is correct in that the 10mm and the .357Mag are close to duplicates in terms of typical performance numbers.

The energy numbers and information above about commercial loadings are accurate as of mid-year 2006 and reflect all commercial loadings for which ballistics information was available on the internet at that time.

If you're measuring by energy or IPSC power factor, the 10mm can outperform the .45ACP. If you prefer to measure by bullet weight or diameter, the .45ACP wins.

I think once you get out of the service pistol class (9mm, .38spl, .40S&W, .357Sig, .45ACP) into the magnum rounds (10mm, .357Mag, etc.) you're beginning to trade shootability for what may not be huge gains in terms of self-defense performance.

On the other hand, most of the magnum rounds offer a good number of reduced loadings on the market for those who would like to work their way up.
 
Remember what that say: "statistics don't lie, but . . ." :)

We don't load our handguns with "averages." :rolleyes:

Hot-loaded .357 Magnum rounds are slightly "hotter" than hot-loaded 10mm rounds. Low-end .357 Magnum rounds are considerably milder than low-end 10mm rounds (which, of course, totally skews the statistics--but then, again, we don't load "averages"). The .357 Magnum is a little more versatile in that sense.
Which, I guess would make a statement like "the 10mm ranges to a low .41 Magnum" perfectly correct
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The statement is correct, but it could conceivably be misinterpreted to indicate the 10mm falls in power between the .357 Magnum and .41 Magnum which was the reason for the clarification. There is a lot overlap between between high-end .357 Magnum/10mm loads and low-end .41 Magnum loads. There is some overlap between high-end .40 S&W loads and low-end 10mm loads.
 
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I have a G20 and G21. The recoil is not that much more out of the G20 (and I routinely shoot full power Double Tap loads; I carry their 180 grain Gold Dots). There are definite advantages to the G20. The 10mm punches through hard barriers easier than the .45, and the gun holds 2 more rounds. You just have to get used to the added recoil, though. However, up close and personal, I still prefer the .45 (especially in Winchester Ranger-T 230 grain +P); I just like the heavier slug. When I'm out on the highway I usually have the G20 with me. At night, under my pillow, I have the G21.
 
The only KB I've ever witnessed was a Glock 20. The trigger had been fiddled with, and I think it fired slightly out of battery. Pretty impressive display, as the contents of the magazine shot out the bottom of the grip as bits of internal mechanism appeared in an opening between the bulged frame, and slide. I was standing just off the shooter's right shoulder, thinking how glad I was that the extractor wasn't embedded in my forehead. The shooter had a bloodblister that ran from the base of his trigger finger, around the web, and half-way up his thumb. A new frame and internals put the gun back in business.
I saw an interview with the late Col. Cooper, recorded maybe three years ago, and he admitted that the 10mm was not the end-all defensive caliber, as had been promoted back in the '80s. While he still appreciated what the cartridge can do - flat trajectory! Same energy at 75 yards as a .45 at the muzzle! - he admitted that defensive shootings don't take place at 75 yards, so there was nothing to be gained in exchange for increased blast, recoil, wear, etc. Although I've never packed my 10, my "defense load" is (would be) a Nosler 135HP at 1400fps; shoots like .45 hardball, with more energy and more momentum than the vaunted 125gr .357.
 
I think you've already gotten a lot of good data on the 10mm round from those that know far more than me, so I'll just talk about the Glock 20 vs. a .45.

Have owned a Glock 20 for about 6 months now and put hundreds of rounds through it. Gun is great to shoot, 100% reliable and I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as durability. I think Double Tap actually test their loads in a Glock and I don't think you'll have any worries that the gun can't handle the hotest loads.

I also don't find recoil to be much of an issue. Recoil is a little sharper than with a .45, but you should be able to shoot a couple of hundred rounds in relative comfort. Honestly, I think the combination of stopping power, reliability, ease of use and round count make the G20 a pretty terrific handgun. Although I'm not ordinarily a huge Glock fan and for slow fire target shooting find I'm more accurate with a good 1911 or my SIG 226, if I was going to carry a full-size gun, it would be the Glock 20, since in that context I'm more concerned with reliability, ease of use, stopping power and lots of rounds than I am with pinpoint slowfire accuracy.
 
I think once you get out of the service pistol class (9mm, .38spl, .40S&W, .357Sig, .45ACP) into the magnum rounds (10mm, .357Mag, etc.) you're beginning to trade shootability for what may not be huge gains in terms of self-defense performance.
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I couldn't agree more. Survival has little to to with caliber and a lot to do with shot placement and putting rounds on target first. The .45ACP is a lot easier to drive than a 10mm. The 10mm sacrafices a lot of drivability for a little gain in performance. Remember, the only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
 
JohKSA's analysis is dead-on. For ordinary self-defense purposes, the .45 acp is probably a better choice, for shootability reasons, and the extra power of the 10mm is unneeded. Not to mention wider surface area / bigger hole of the .45. But the 10mm, like the .357 mag, is a versatile round for say LEOs, who may have to do things like shoot through winshield glass in order to save a crowd of people from a crazed driver, let's say. The LEO would be justified in using deadly force to save others, whereas you and I wouldn't - we'd just get out of the way to save ourselves. Plus an LEO is just going to be put into more situations where use of the gun is self-defense is more likely than with non-LEOs. More situations translates to more *unusual* situations, where the extra power may be required. Another example might be a longer distance (say 40-60 yards), in order to pick off a BG when he steps away from a hostage at that distance. The flatter trajectory of the 10mm would give him a potential advantage over the .45 in such a situation, whereas you or I would not be justified in taking such a long shot, unless perhaps it was a spouse or child, about whom one has a right in most states to use deadly force to protect. And going back the winshield, a 10mm is going to perform better than a .45 against one, due to the better sectional density, and higher velocity/energy. The 10mm round was specifically designed to be an improvement over the .45 acp, giving more capacity AND more power. It has succeeded in giving more capacity and more power, but not necessarily succeeded in being an improvement for most people, because of the tradeoff in shootability (recoil). Another reason some subsribe to for using a 'standard' round like a .45 acp over a 10mm is the theory that a prosecutor might make a lot of hay to the gun-ignorant jury over your super-duper hot 'n' deadly round you used to incapacitate the bad guy, showing an alleged eagerness and intent to kill, in the event you are charged with homocide and your defense is self-defense.
 
Out of my 10mm's and 45's, I note that the 10mm in a 1911 format has a sharp recoil and a bark for the report. It happens fast. You want a good grip but it is not painful or the like. The 45 is just a big push with 230 hardball. I don't really think about shooting the 45 much in a 1911, it just happens. The 10mm on the other hand can be pretty snappy.

This is assuming you are shooting 10mm power levels and not 40 power levels like most big name ammo.
 
Another thing to consider. 10mm ammo is somewhat scarce and rather expensive. .45ACP ammo is ubiquitous, and if you shop around, you can get it far less expensively.

If it were my money, I'd go with the .45. My two cents.
 
The 10mm has too much recoil for most people to be used as a personal defense weapon. Calibers such as the 9mm, .357 sig, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP are all fine choices for self defense with much less recoil. Yes the 10mm is more powerful but you give up alot in the way of multiple shot accuracy and speed.
 
Hot-loaded .357 Magnum rounds are slightly "hotter" than hot-loaded 10mm rounds.
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Said that. Even quantified the difference.
Low-end .357 Magnum rounds are considerably milder than low-end 10mm rounds...
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That's not correct. If you compare the lowest 25% of commercial loadings in each caliber, the .357Mag energy is only 5% lower. That's actually a SMALLER difference than comparing the overall average energy of the two calibers.
The statement is correct, but it could conceivably be misinterpreted to indicate the 10mm falls in power between the .357 Magnum and .41 Magnum...
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I suppose it could--but ONLY if one didn't read the next paragraph in my post.
We don't load our handguns with "averages."
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Finding the information on a specific loading is very simple. Getting an overall picture based on available commercial loadings is much harder. Averages are a handy, relatively easy, and commonly understood way to make comparisons between large data sets. If you prefer some other reasonable statistic, I guess I can provide that as well.
 
"Statistics don't lie, but . . . "

That's not correct. If you compare the lowest 25% of commercial loadings in each caliber, the .357Mag energy is only 5% lower.
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Black Hills (and Georgia Arms) loads the .357 Magnum to a ME of ~225 fpe--which is considerably milder than a a low-end 10mm (as was correctly stated).

If there is an award for totally meaningless humus, I nominate the following:
If you compare the lowest 25% of commercial loadings in each caliber, the .357Mag energy is only 5% lower.
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Who in their right mind cares what the average of "the lowest 25% of commercial loadings." :rolleyes: Somebody really needs to get a life.

The bottom line is the .357 Magnum and 10mm are for all practical purposes ballistic twins. It's not a matter choosing between the .357 Magnum or the 10mm, but between a wheelgun and and a bottom feeder (or maybe between not having to pick up brass and having to pick up brass). :)
 
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