1000-yard hunting with a .308
- Thread starter Theohazard
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That depends on the terrain. In many places 400 yards is as close as you will ever get. I'm a bow hunter too, I don't hunt with my bow in those places. Not all hunters have the luxury of being able to hunt in those areas where 20 yard shots are a long one.
Not something I'd do, my personal skills aren't nearly that good, but with an aerodynamic 200 gr bullet a 308 has more energy at 1000 yards than a 44 mag from a revolver has at the muzzle. It is probably not as unrealistic as it seems at first glance.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I don't care how skilled you are, nor how much high-tech gear you have. All it takes at 1,000 yards is a little puff of invisible wind to turn a kill-shot into a crippling shot.
And that's why many of us think, "Unethical." Knowingly taking a shot that all too easily could become a crippling hit.
It's why many hunters in Colorado became contemptuous of Texas hunters is the early years of the 7mm Rem Mag. Too many crippled elk.
And that's why many of us think, "Unethical." Knowingly taking a shot that all too easily could become a crippling hit.
It's why many hunters in Colorado became contemptuous of Texas hunters is the early years of the 7mm Rem Mag. Too many crippled elk.
tahunua001
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yearling elk is still a good 100 pounds heavier than the average whitetail. much wider bodied too.
4runnerman
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I don't hunt anymore so maybe I am out of date here. But going from hunting to bench shooting as I have done I can say this. As a deer hunter I was pretty much limited to 300 to 400 yard shots where we went, that was considered a great shot. Now shooting long range ( and a rookie at that). I see that 300 to 400 yards is very easy. I don't know how big the kill zone is on a big elk,but I do shoot with some guys that could hit the kill zone 10 out of 10 times at 1000 yards. And yes that includes shooting in the wind as that is what we do. Matches are not called because of wind and still they hit the bullseye. So the question of it being ethical would boil down to how good you are. There are some people that ( using what your calling ethical ) should not be shooting deer at 100 yards.
So the question really is- Are you calling it un ethical because it is beyond your realm of precision or shooting ability?. Is it un ethical for a few deer hunters I see every year at the range that can't hold a 5 inch group at 50 yards to shoot a deer at 100 or more yards. My concern is a 308 at 1000 yards. Myself- I would never do a 1000 yard shot,but that is because it is beyond my ability right now.
Case in point- When I was deer hunting,holding 3 inch or 4 inch groups at 300 yards was good to go. Now shooting F Class I find that 3 to 4 inch groups is horrible.
So the question really is- Are you calling it un ethical because it is beyond your realm of precision or shooting ability?. Is it un ethical for a few deer hunters I see every year at the range that can't hold a 5 inch group at 50 yards to shoot a deer at 100 or more yards. My concern is a 308 at 1000 yards. Myself- I would never do a 1000 yard shot,but that is because it is beyond my ability right now.
Case in point- When I was deer hunting,holding 3 inch or 4 inch groups at 300 yards was good to go. Now shooting F Class I find that 3 to 4 inch groups is horrible.
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Panfisher, you nailed it right here. I've killed several elk, and a bunch of deer, some of which were "too far". When these guys lob bullets at game that far away, they seldom know if they have hit or missed the animal. Almost every elk I've shot took off as if it wasn't even injured, and if you can find the same tracks the elk was standing in 1000 yards away, you're doing verrrry good. We find the skeletons of elk that I suspect have been shot by guys like this, and I doubt the "hunter"
even knew he had connected. jdOK,first,he was talking semi-auto .308.
I know when the pressures get a little hot,an ArmaliteAR-10 leaves the brass in the chamber.Is our hero single loading his semi-auto 1000 yd Elk gun?
Or are we going to be realistic about 2.8 COAL and these deep seated 200 gr 308 wonder loads?
As I understand it,keeping a 308 supersonic at 1000 is challenging,and may involve longer barrels and hot loads better suited to a bolt gun.
Now,call your bullet MFGR and ask the minimum velocity for the bullet to expand and perform.Its usually just under 2000 fps.So tell me what is the MV you get with a 200 gr bullet from an AR-10?
OK,so,benched and bagged or with a bipod your AR ,golly,its a good one!!It does .400 MOA groups at 100 yds.But,no,wait.That does not count.
If you shoot 1 shot,cold bore.Then come back tomorrow,and shoot 1 shot,cold bore..do this ten times,AND,I want to know how far each was from perfect center of the target.
One shot,you are going for an elks kill zone.Not his liver or guts or leg.Thats generally regarded as a 10 inch target.
Fair chase means you are not using a vehicle.You are on your feet with no bench or sandbags.You want a bipod,OK.
I won't say no one can do it.Darn few keyboard commandos can shoot 1 MOA under hunting field conditions at 1000 yds.
Or make a1st round hit on a 10 in target.,not just sometimes.Near every time.
For the shooter,the "risk" is only ego.For the elk,it is prolonged agony.
IMO,its a stunt involving a distinct lack of respect for the animal.
Oh,and,yeah,I do understand.I have a Kestrel and a Leica and a ballistic calculator and a chronograph .I even have a decent long range rifle.
No,not shooting 1000 yds on a game animal.
I know when the pressures get a little hot,an ArmaliteAR-10 leaves the brass in the chamber.Is our hero single loading his semi-auto 1000 yd Elk gun?
Or are we going to be realistic about 2.8 COAL and these deep seated 200 gr 308 wonder loads?
As I understand it,keeping a 308 supersonic at 1000 is challenging,and may involve longer barrels and hot loads better suited to a bolt gun.
Now,call your bullet MFGR and ask the minimum velocity for the bullet to expand and perform.Its usually just under 2000 fps.So tell me what is the MV you get with a 200 gr bullet from an AR-10?
OK,so,benched and bagged or with a bipod your AR ,golly,its a good one!!It does .400 MOA groups at 100 yds.But,no,wait.That does not count.
If you shoot 1 shot,cold bore.Then come back tomorrow,and shoot 1 shot,cold bore..do this ten times,AND,I want to know how far each was from perfect center of the target.
One shot,you are going for an elks kill zone.Not his liver or guts or leg.Thats generally regarded as a 10 inch target.
Fair chase means you are not using a vehicle.You are on your feet with no bench or sandbags.You want a bipod,OK.
I won't say no one can do it.Darn few keyboard commandos can shoot 1 MOA under hunting field conditions at 1000 yds.
Or make a1st round hit on a 10 in target.,not just sometimes.Near every time.
For the shooter,the "risk" is only ego.For the elk,it is prolonged agony.
IMO,its a stunt involving a distinct lack of respect for the animal.
Oh,and,yeah,I do understand.I have a Kestrel and a Leica and a ballistic calculator and a chronograph .I even have a decent long range rifle.
No,not shooting 1000 yds on a game animal.
4runnerman
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OK,so,benched and bagged or with a bipod your AR ,golly,its a good one!!It does .400 MOA groups at 100 yds.But,no,wait.That does not count.
If you shoot 1 shot,cold bore.Then come back tomorrow,and shoot 1 shot,cold bore..do this ten times,AND,I want to know how far each was from perfect center of the target.
HiBC- yes I can do this and cold bore shot is always very very close everytime.
I do not have a large margin of error. With my 223 it is within 1/2 inch always.
As I have stated-I would never try a shot like this on a animal.
To look at it another way- I don't know a one sniper that tells his target to wait while he warms up his rifle with a few shots before he shoots them.
When I shoot 1000 yard matches,we get unlimited sighters. This is not to warm up the barrel before shooting. It is to get on target only. Most , me included only need about 2 or 3 shots to do it. And first cold bore shot is with in 10 inches very easy. If you have a good rifle and a good scope it is not a Hail Mary shot.
I can take my BR from 100 yards dial out to 1000 yards and first shot will be within 10 inches always.
Which brings me back to-- Me I would never do it, But don't judge other peoples shooting skills based on how good you are. I thought I was a crack shot till I started shooting comp. Reality sucks and it hurts the ego sometimes to. I can attest to that with my personnel experience. Very belittling to say the least.
One of the matches last year, Only 600 yards at that one, But we had 2 people that showed up with ( to me any how) looked like rifles that were built before man was created, open sights and the 2 people shooting them looked to be as old. Those 2 gentleman were on the bullseye right off the bat. I would sit and could not help but wonder-With a new rifle and a good scope- what could they do?. Probably put all of us to shame. Same day same match- I had a 11 year old dust my rear end in that match. My point is-No matter how good you think you are, believe me- There is someone out there that will put you in your place fast.
Could be a 11 year old or a guy (2 of them) that need a cane and a walker to stand up.
If you shoot 1 shot,cold bore.Then come back tomorrow,and shoot 1 shot,cold bore..do this ten times,AND,I want to know how far each was from perfect center of the target.
HiBC- yes I can do this and cold bore shot is always very very close everytime.
I do not have a large margin of error. With my 223 it is within 1/2 inch always.
As I have stated-I would never try a shot like this on a animal.
To look at it another way- I don't know a one sniper that tells his target to wait while he warms up his rifle with a few shots before he shoots them.
When I shoot 1000 yard matches,we get unlimited sighters. This is not to warm up the barrel before shooting. It is to get on target only. Most , me included only need about 2 or 3 shots to do it. And first cold bore shot is with in 10 inches very easy. If you have a good rifle and a good scope it is not a Hail Mary shot.
I can take my BR from 100 yards dial out to 1000 yards and first shot will be within 10 inches always.
Which brings me back to-- Me I would never do it, But don't judge other peoples shooting skills based on how good you are. I thought I was a crack shot till I started shooting comp. Reality sucks and it hurts the ego sometimes to. I can attest to that with my personnel experience. Very belittling to say the least.
One of the matches last year, Only 600 yards at that one, But we had 2 people that showed up with ( to me any how) looked like rifles that were built before man was created, open sights and the 2 people shooting them looked to be as old. Those 2 gentleman were on the bullseye right off the bat. I would sit and could not help but wonder-With a new rifle and a good scope- what could they do?. Probably put all of us to shame. Same day same match- I had a 11 year old dust my rear end in that match. My point is-No matter how good you think you are, believe me- There is someone out there that will put you in your place fast.
Could be a 11 year old or a guy (2 of them) that need a cane and a walker to stand up.
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Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
"And first cold bore shot is with in 10 inches very easy."
Yup. No doubt. Probably a fair number of people can do that very thing. Trouble is, that could be five inches behind the heart, in the stomach. Or grazing across the front of the chest, making nice smelly blood for the wolves.
Hunting has a shortage of Mulligans.
Yup. No doubt. Probably a fair number of people can do that very thing. Trouble is, that could be five inches behind the heart, in the stomach. Or grazing across the front of the chest, making nice smelly blood for the wolves.
Hunting has a shortage of Mulligans.
buck460XVR
New member
A few weeks back I was watching a show on one of the outdoor channels where they were pushing long range shooting and their long range shooting school. The star of the show and owner of the shooting school took a shot at a mule deer at 800-900 yards and missed. Blamed his miss on his spotter claiming he was too inexperienced to realize there was an updraft coming up the valley. He even claimed he was uncomfortable taking the shot because of the inexperienced spotter. BUT he still took the shot. This is a guy that teaches others to shoot 1000 yards.
The point he was trying to make is that even an experienced long range shooter sometimes misses the little things. The point I got outta it was that even for experienced long range shooters, the odds of making a poor shot on an animal at that range, even with the best of equipment, is quite high. IOWs, the show isn't promoting ethics, outdoormanship or hunting skills, just the idea that anyone can sometimes hit something out to 1000 yards.4runnerman
New member
Art- That is very true, But that is me. I am a rookie. Some of the guys I shoot against are not rookies. Again let me state- I do NOT condone shooting a animal at 1000 yards. I am simply saying there are those that can do it very well.
Snyper- A snipers job is to take the target out ( DEAD) not wound. Not sure where you get your info from. A wound is only if called for, but there main job is to kill the target. At 1000 yards if you shoot at a moving target , that is not wise. Bullet flight time is? what 1 second?. Standing targets dont move far in one second. The 10 inches is Me. As posted above. I am a rookie and Don't claim to be anything more. My point as I will state again- Don't judge un ethical based on your shooting talent. That means squat to many.
I seem to be under the gun here for saying this. My stance is- I would NOT as I have said 3 or 4 times already. But I do know people that could do this. I am just mearly saying that lots of people here are jumping the gun and saying trash about this guy in question with out even knowing anything about his talent or expirence. Because none of us would or could do it, That means no one else can either. Sad mantality I think. This started out as a question and went to trash the shooter right away. I am simply saying if he is that good, then more power to him. My main concern from the beggening was a 308 for the job.
Snyper- A snipers job is to take the target out ( DEAD) not wound. Not sure where you get your info from. A wound is only if called for, but there main job is to kill the target. At 1000 yards if you shoot at a moving target , that is not wise. Bullet flight time is? what 1 second?. Standing targets dont move far in one second. The 10 inches is Me. As posted above. I am a rookie and Don't claim to be anything more. My point as I will state again- Don't judge un ethical based on your shooting talent. That means squat to many.
I seem to be under the gun here for saying this. My stance is- I would NOT as I have said 3 or 4 times already. But I do know people that could do this. I am just mearly saying that lots of people here are jumping the gun and saying trash about this guy in question with out even knowing anything about his talent or expirence. Because none of us would or could do it, That means no one else can either. Sad mantality I think. This started out as a question and went to trash the shooter right away. I am simply saying if he is that good, then more power to him. My main concern from the beggening was a 308 for the job.
4runner.Ijust read your post,then I went back and read mine.
I think maybe you were responding to your own thoughts,not mine.
I'm really pretty humble about my ability to shoot.(With justification!)
So,no,I do not take the egocentric view that because I can't,no one else can.I know better.
I also recognize some amazing things are done by top shooters.There was a paper plate posted at Cache la Poudre Rifleworks with 5 holes in it,fired at 1000 yds,witnessed.It was done with a 45-70 Shilo Sharps and iron sights
You mention sighters. A few sighters to get on.I have fired groups less than 10 in at 1090 yds upon occasion after a few sighters.Even my mediocre me can do that.Actually,the rifle did it more than I did.
When an elk hunter takes "sighters" its a leg shot(low,left),then a gut shot(elevation good,10 but you were a foot right) oh,gosh,hes flopping around....
I still do not,and did not, say no one can do it.
But I stand by my statement.Keyboard commando is easy.
The person who can sight in at the range,probably on a bench,with wind,mirage,altitude,temperature,etc at the range,travel to a different altitude and conditions,walk around,up and down,find an improvised shooting position on the ground,and get a first round hit within a 5 inch radius of point of aim at 1000 yds is uncommon.That is what I said,and,IMO,there is nothing to argue about.
I don't know you or your shooting.If you want to claim you can,OK.
I think maybe you were responding to your own thoughts,not mine.
I'm really pretty humble about my ability to shoot.(With justification!)
So,no,I do not take the egocentric view that because I can't,no one else can.I know better.
I also recognize some amazing things are done by top shooters.There was a paper plate posted at Cache la Poudre Rifleworks with 5 holes in it,fired at 1000 yds,witnessed.It was done with a 45-70 Shilo Sharps and iron sights
You mention sighters. A few sighters to get on.I have fired groups less than 10 in at 1090 yds upon occasion after a few sighters.Even my mediocre me can do that.Actually,the rifle did it more than I did.
When an elk hunter takes "sighters" its a leg shot(low,left),then a gut shot(elevation good,10 but you were a foot right) oh,gosh,hes flopping around....
I still do not,and did not, say no one can do it.
But I stand by my statement.Keyboard commando is easy.
The person who can sight in at the range,probably on a bench,with wind,mirage,altitude,temperature,etc at the range,travel to a different altitude and conditions,walk around,up and down,find an improvised shooting position on the ground,and get a first round hit within a 5 inch radius of point of aim at 1000 yds is uncommon.That is what I said,and,IMO,there is nothing to argue about.
I don't know you or your shooting.If you want to claim you can,OK.
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Theohazard
New member
He wasn't saying a sniper's goal was specifically to wound, he was saying that a sniper shot where the target is only wounded isn't a bad thing. Sure, it's better to kill the target, but a wounded enemy is still a good thing and is usually better than not taking the shot at all.4runnerman said:
It's different with hunting: Merely wounding the target isn't considered a good thing, and it's usually considered better to not take a shot instead of risk it and end up wounding the animal.
4runnerman
New member
Theohazard- I agree. That is why I or you or many others here would take the shot. But to think no one else could is not right
Theohazard
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I don't think anyone is saying that no one could make the shot. What we're saying is that the practice itself is considered a bad one, regardless of the shooter's skill.
It's the same way with gun safety: I know that I'm safe enough and a good enough shot that I could get away with doing things like shoot a sign that my wife holds up or shoot with an insufficient backstop. But things like that go against the principles of established gun safety rules, so I won't do them.
It's the same way with gun safety: I know that I'm safe enough and a good enough shot that I could get away with doing things like shoot a sign that my wife holds up or shoot with an insufficient backstop. But things like that go against the principles of established gun safety rules, so I won't do them.
buck460XVR
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I think the reason it went to trash right away is most of us realize that anyone with the skill and knowledge to legitimately shoot at game at 1000 yards is not going to do it with an off the shelf semi-auto .308. I wonder why the guy didn't use the same firearm he had used to shoot all those animals he claims to have shot at 800 yards. Sometimes it's easy to pick out the chaff from the grain.
4runnerman
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Buck460- Bingo. This is the main point I have been trying to make. A 308 whether it be semi or bolt is not the right choice for this shot. If he can do the shot is something only he knows.
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