100 vs 100
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Unlicensed Dremel
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No don't disregard it - just realize that it's one of many factors in the penetration half of the terminal performance equation (expansion being the other half)....along with speed (AT the point of impact), bullet construction and how that relates specifically to the speed at the point of impact, and sheer weight without regard to sectional density. Sectional density can often be THE most important factor in penetration. But sometimes it's not - when it's trumped by weak construction and high velocities or just sheer weight (momentum), which counts for a lot. Here, since the weights are the same (100/100), the SD does count for something - a lot even, but it's still a minute marginal increase in SD between those two bullets. Really, it's all about bullet construction in the end, and MATCHING that construction to your speed at the point of impact (or range of possible hunting point of impact distance scenarios), and the game in question (size, anatomy, etc.). So for choosing a chambering, go with what you like or what your gut tells you.
Making the hit itself in the right place is far more important than anything else, so that bodes slightly in favor of the .25-'06 because the extra vel can help you minimize wind-drift-estimation error and drop-estimation error. In other words, making the hit in this close of a call trumps the terminal ballistics differences, and more vel is always better for making the hit, espec. on the windy pronghorn plain. So if you think you might have trouble crawling within 200 yards every time (where the .243 would be perfectly fine), then you might lean toward the .25-'06, just for a bit more velocity. The only downside is more recoil, more cost, longer action, and *possibly* a tiny bit shorter barrel life. Another advantage of .25-'06 is bullet stability / accuracy. A 100 grain lead/copper bullets is at the edge of what 1 in 10 .243 can stabilize, and a 1 in 12 .243 might NOT shoot it. But it's in the "middle" of weights for the standard .25-'06 twist rate, so all .25-'06s should be able to shoot any 100 grainer, including a gilding metal bullet.
I hate to recommend .25-'06 over my beloved .243 chambering, but for a dedicated pronghorn rig, it's tough to beat. Besides, you don't NEED much penetration to completely blow through a speed goat, even quartering. And in the event you think you do, you can always go premium bonded bullet. Heck, a guy on here was just showing his WY speed goats taken with a .22-250 and a bonded Nosler 64 gr flat point... bonded yes, but ALL .224 bullets have a pretty poor SD, including that one.
In the end, just keep in mind that making a good hit is by far the most important thing of all. Either one will do if you practice and know your rifle and load. But in high winds (i.e. SE Wyoming, etc.), the .25-'06 will shine a bit better, especially past 200 yards. Either chambering will easily do the job terminally, once you pick the right bullet for your rig and situation. In fact, if I was using .243 win on a speed goat, I'd use a gilding metal 85 myself - something like the Nosler E-Tip, or even a non-premium 85. But in a .25-06, I WOULD use a 100, because that's the sweet spot for MV/BC in that caliber. So the comparison *itself* is probably not a relevant one, unless you're going to also shove this rifle into the mulie role (remember, you may have both tags in your pocket- pronghorn and mulies - in that event, with a .243, I WOULD want a 100 gr bullet over an 85, most likely!)
You see what I'm saying? .... This is what I'd want:
1. Dedicated pronghorn rig, .243: Premium OR non-premium 80 or 85
2. Dedicated pronghorn rig, .25-'06: Non-premium 100
3. Dual-role, including mulies, .243: Non-premium 95-100, OR premium 85 [But NOT a non-premium 80 or 85]
4. Dual-role, including mulies, .25-'06: [Still] a non-premium 100...or a non-premium 115-117.
...if that makes sense. Just my .02. No reason to pay for premium bullets if there's no need to. But then again, there are exceptions to that. If I think the mulie encounter could happen under 100 yards, where a non-premium 100 grainer could explode, then I'd opt for a PREMIUM 100 or non-premium 115 in .25-'06. But I sort of discounted that possibility because the whole subject here is plains & desert, where the pronghorn roam (and some of the mulies do too - and some elk & cous deer for that matter)...point being that longer shots are the norm and a shot under 100 would be unlikely. So lemme ask you - is this solely a pronghorn rig, for sure?
Making the hit itself in the right place is far more important than anything else, so that bodes slightly in favor of the .25-'06 because the extra vel can help you minimize wind-drift-estimation error and drop-estimation error. In other words, making the hit in this close of a call trumps the terminal ballistics differences, and more vel is always better for making the hit, espec. on the windy pronghorn plain. So if you think you might have trouble crawling within 200 yards every time (where the .243 would be perfectly fine), then you might lean toward the .25-'06, just for a bit more velocity. The only downside is more recoil, more cost, longer action, and *possibly* a tiny bit shorter barrel life. Another advantage of .25-'06 is bullet stability / accuracy. A 100 grain lead/copper bullets is at the edge of what 1 in 10 .243 can stabilize, and a 1 in 12 .243 might NOT shoot it. But it's in the "middle" of weights for the standard .25-'06 twist rate, so all .25-'06s should be able to shoot any 100 grainer, including a gilding metal bullet.
I hate to recommend .25-'06 over my beloved .243 chambering, but for a dedicated pronghorn rig, it's tough to beat. Besides, you don't NEED much penetration to completely blow through a speed goat, even quartering. And in the event you think you do, you can always go premium bonded bullet. Heck, a guy on here was just showing his WY speed goats taken with a .22-250 and a bonded Nosler 64 gr flat point... bonded yes, but ALL .224 bullets have a pretty poor SD, including that one.
In the end, just keep in mind that making a good hit is by far the most important thing of all. Either one will do if you practice and know your rifle and load. But in high winds (i.e. SE Wyoming, etc.), the .25-'06 will shine a bit better, especially past 200 yards. Either chambering will easily do the job terminally, once you pick the right bullet for your rig and situation. In fact, if I was using .243 win on a speed goat, I'd use a gilding metal 85 myself - something like the Nosler E-Tip, or even a non-premium 85. But in a .25-06, I WOULD use a 100, because that's the sweet spot for MV/BC in that caliber. So the comparison *itself* is probably not a relevant one, unless you're going to also shove this rifle into the mulie role (remember, you may have both tags in your pocket- pronghorn and mulies - in that event, with a .243, I WOULD want a 100 gr bullet over an 85, most likely!)
You see what I'm saying? .... This is what I'd want:
1. Dedicated pronghorn rig, .243: Premium OR non-premium 80 or 85
2. Dedicated pronghorn rig, .25-'06: Non-premium 100
3. Dual-role, including mulies, .243: Non-premium 95-100, OR premium 85 [But NOT a non-premium 80 or 85]
4. Dual-role, including mulies, .25-'06: [Still] a non-premium 100...or a non-premium 115-117.
...if that makes sense. Just my .02. No reason to pay for premium bullets if there's no need to. But then again, there are exceptions to that. If I think the mulie encounter could happen under 100 yards, where a non-premium 100 grainer could explode, then I'd opt for a PREMIUM 100 or non-premium 115 in .25-'06. But I sort of discounted that possibility because the whole subject here is plains & desert, where the pronghorn roam (and some of the mulies do too - and some elk & cous deer for that matter)...point being that longer shots are the norm and a shot under 100 would be unlikely. So lemme ask you - is this solely a pronghorn rig, for sure?
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I opened this thread certain of the 25-06. Then read some of the replies.
My thoughts are that the 25-06 presents a better cartridge when you pull the trigger. It is simply faster, heavier, and so forth than the .243. the .270 offers a strong contender, bypassing them both, but as you say, it's not part of the debate. The .243 has a lot of other things going for it. Short action, ammunition availability, lighter weight, etc.
Either one of them will be able to put a kill shot on the skinny little boiler room of a pronghorn and do it well. There will be maybe 2-5% of all shots taken in which the 25-06 would have made the difference between success and failure. That simple. You have no real benefit, IMO, in 90% of the cases, by going with the 06. Use either one, but base your decision on other considerations, not which cartridge you think is more lethal. It's all very minor considerations.
I personally would pack in a .25-06, because of personal consideraions, and only a little bit of consideration towards ballistics.
Thousands of critters have been killed with either round, and hey, the .257 roberts and .250 savage worked pretty well, too. it's more important to practice, get accurate and efficient ammo, and make the hit.
My thoughts are that the 25-06 presents a better cartridge when you pull the trigger. It is simply faster, heavier, and so forth than the .243. the .270 offers a strong contender, bypassing them both, but as you say, it's not part of the debate. The .243 has a lot of other things going for it. Short action, ammunition availability, lighter weight, etc.
Either one of them will be able to put a kill shot on the skinny little boiler room of a pronghorn and do it well. There will be maybe 2-5% of all shots taken in which the 25-06 would have made the difference between success and failure. That simple. You have no real benefit, IMO, in 90% of the cases, by going with the 06. Use either one, but base your decision on other considerations, not which cartridge you think is more lethal. It's all very minor considerations.
I personally would pack in a .25-06, because of personal consideraions, and only a little bit of consideration towards ballistics.
Thousands of critters have been killed with either round, and hey, the .257 roberts and .250 savage worked pretty well, too. it's more important to practice, get accurate and efficient ammo, and make the hit.
Colorado Redneck
New member
We can all cherry pick data
Here is mine:
25-06 Remington
100 Gr. Nosler BT (Sectional Density = 0.216 BC = .393)
MV = 3352
MPBR = 390 (5" vital radius JBM)
Energy at MPBR = 1274 ft. lb
Drop @ 500 yards = -28.5
Energy at 500 yards = 1034 ft. lbs.
Wind Drift @ 500 yds = 19.7"
243 Winchester
90 Nosler BT (Sectional Density = .218 BC = .365)
MV = 3240
MPBR = 374 (5" vital radius JBM)
Energy at MPBR = 1037 ft. lb.
Drop at 500 yds = -32.0
Energy at 500 yds = 796 ft. lb.
Wind Drift @ 500 yds = 22.6"
I used a 250 yard zero for both rounds to compare drop at 500 yards.
The velocities are from Nosler Load data.
The bullets are damned near exactly the same in BC and SD, thus a very fair comparison IMO
I still would take the 25-06 for larger mulies at longer range. The retained energy at MPBR for that round is 23 % higher than the 243. That is significant.
So yes, if you buy an unusual rifle with a fast twist, and you hand load, and you care to buy higher end components the 243 is comparable and under some very rare conditions may be a bit better.
Here is mine:
25-06 Remington
100 Gr. Nosler BT (Sectional Density = 0.216 BC = .393)
MV = 3352
MPBR = 390 (5" vital radius JBM)
Energy at MPBR = 1274 ft. lb
Drop @ 500 yards = -28.5
Energy at 500 yards = 1034 ft. lbs.
Wind Drift @ 500 yds = 19.7"
243 Winchester
90 Nosler BT (Sectional Density = .218 BC = .365)
MV = 3240
MPBR = 374 (5" vital radius JBM)
Energy at MPBR = 1037 ft. lb.
Drop at 500 yds = -32.0
Energy at 500 yds = 796 ft. lb.
Wind Drift @ 500 yds = 22.6"
I used a 250 yard zero for both rounds to compare drop at 500 yards.
The velocities are from Nosler Load data.
The bullets are damned near exactly the same in BC and SD, thus a very fair comparison IMO
I still would take the 25-06 for larger mulies at longer range. The retained energy at MPBR for that round is 23 % higher than the 243. That is significant.
So yes, if you buy an unusual rifle with a fast twist, and you hand load, and you care to buy higher end components the 243 is comparable and under some very rare conditions may be a bit better.
Colorado Redneck,
You say retained energy is 23% higher at MPBR. That is totally true, and completely irrelevant.
Let me put that into perspective.
1274 ft/lbs minus 1034 ft/lbs is 240 ft/lbs energy. Slightly more energy than a 22long rifle from a rifle barrel at the muzzle, less energy than 9x18 Makarov at max published energy, at the muzzle.
Both rounds at MPBR are within the energy range of a 44 magnum depending on load and barrel length.
Both loads are over 1,000 ft/lbs of energy at MPBR, which is something that a 30/30 has a hard time doing past 170 yards. (don't tell the deer, they'll start figuring out they aren't supposed to die when shot with a 30/30!)
As FrFrog likes to say, "incremental improvements are meaningless." The pronghorn won't be able to tell the difference.
Jimro
You say retained energy is 23% higher at MPBR. That is totally true, and completely irrelevant.
Let me put that into perspective.
1274 ft/lbs minus 1034 ft/lbs is 240 ft/lbs energy. Slightly more energy than a 22long rifle from a rifle barrel at the muzzle, less energy than 9x18 Makarov at max published energy, at the muzzle.
Both rounds at MPBR are within the energy range of a 44 magnum depending on load and barrel length.
Both loads are over 1,000 ft/lbs of energy at MPBR, which is something that a 30/30 has a hard time doing past 170 yards. (don't tell the deer, they'll start figuring out they aren't supposed to die when shot with a 30/30!)
As FrFrog likes to say, "incremental improvements are meaningless." The pronghorn won't be able to tell the difference.
Jimro
Colorado Redneck
New member
Jimro--This is all opinion based on fact biased by nebulous individual factors.
Here is what I said: "I still would take the 25-06 for larger mulies at longer range. The retained energy at MPBR for that round is 23 % higher than the 243. That is significant."
If you get an animal in the shoulder the extra umph may be the difference in nailing that critter down. In the netherworld of gun discussions, what is the difference in the 308 and the 30-06? Probably less than what we are talking about here for these two rounds. Yet there some who will argue tooth and nail that the extra few yards of MPBR are worth the increase in recoil and muzzle blast. To some, the 223 is a fine antelope round. Not to me. Maybe the 22-250 with 60 gr. Partitions would be good to 300 yards. But I would rather use a 243. See??
The same argument could be made about the .38 special and the 9mm. And on and on.
Now, as I said before, the 243 is a fine round. I have nothing against it. But YOUR concept of what is significant is different than MINE. So you do what ever you wants to and I will too. There. That settles that!
Here is what I said: "I still would take the 25-06 for larger mulies at longer range. The retained energy at MPBR for that round is 23 % higher than the 243. That is significant."
If you get an animal in the shoulder the extra umph may be the difference in nailing that critter down. In the netherworld of gun discussions, what is the difference in the 308 and the 30-06? Probably less than what we are talking about here for these two rounds. Yet there some who will argue tooth and nail that the extra few yards of MPBR are worth the increase in recoil and muzzle blast. To some, the 223 is a fine antelope round. Not to me. Maybe the 22-250 with 60 gr. Partitions would be good to 300 yards. But I would rather use a 243. See??
The same argument could be made about the .38 special and the 9mm. And on and on.
Now, as I said before, the 243 is a fine round. I have nothing against it. But YOUR concept of what is significant is different than MINE. So you do what ever you wants to and I will too. There. That settles that!
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curmudgeon1
New member
Phew ! Lotta jousting for .007" difference in diameter.
(I kill paper once a week with .223 rem.)
(I kill paper once a week with .223 rem.)
Colorado Redneck
New member
But Curmudgeon! You can kill paper just as good with a 22 LR!
Joke---just joshin.
Yeah--these purse swinging affairs get carried away. But when the weather is cold and there is snow on the ground, it beats going to the bar and is sure better than anything on TV.
Joke---just joshin.
Yeah--these purse swinging affairs get carried away. But when the weather is cold and there is snow on the ground, it beats going to the bar and is sure better than anything on TV.
curmudgeon1
New member
The oratory is great entertainment, I read every word.
Colorado Redneck
New member
Jimro--I do agree. And in fact would pick a 243 if buying a different hunting rifle at this time. Happen to have a 25-06 and 270. I have entertained the idea of buying another barrel for the Savage 12 I use for prairie dogs, only in 243, and getting a Boyds Stock for it to use for game hunting. I re-barreled that Savage a couple months ago and have the tools, just need the new tube and the go/no-go gauge.
All of the above conversation was opinion.
All of the above conversation was opinion.
After reading this entire thread I view the dialog as not too meaningful. More emphasis should be placed on the gun, not the cartridge. With either cartridge, if the gun is inaccurate or poorly fit to the shooter he will be dissatisfied. If the gun is accurate and a good fit to the shooter he will think he made the better choice for cartridge selection. Having owned both and hand-loaded for both I favor the 25-06.