hardworker
New member
I'm with you on the tight patterns. I use full choke for everything
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#1 Buck for HD
- Thread starter C0untZer0
- Start date
Sorry, didn't understand at first that for HD we no longer point a shotgun but need take careful aim with effectively a big bullet, and we don't slap the trigger with both eyes open but take a proper position, get a cheek weld, sight alignment, control our breath, squeeze the trigger like an eye-dropper, follow through...
No need to pick those descriptions apart; Training Counselors/Coaches/Instructors/practiced students get 'em.
And I wish we knew more about patterning for deer hunting BEFORE they named the damned stuff BUCKshot. What were the idiots thinking before sensitive tactical cops couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag, lawyers, and FliteControl* wads?
*Warning: LE ammo is NOT recommended for deer or bear hunting.
No need to pick those descriptions apart; Training Counselors/Coaches/Instructors/practiced students get 'em.
And I wish we knew more about patterning for deer hunting BEFORE they named the damned stuff BUCKshot. What were the idiots thinking before sensitive tactical cops couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag, lawyers, and FliteControl* wads?
*Warning: LE ammo is NOT recommended for deer or bear hunting.
I know enuff about buckshot to want a tight pattern to hit my future supper in a vital region without any pellets opening up the guts to taint my venison. I also do not care for excessive meat damage. A 14" maximum pattern gives me plenty of pellets to the vital zone without ripping into the backstraps or guts as a 30" pattern surely would do.And I wish we knew more about patterning for deer hunting BEFORE they named the damned stuff BUCKshot.
Anything less accurate on your part could leave your target able to fight on while your lead payload soars through a wall or window on to points unknown... I do "point" to an extent... But only so far as I am still center of mass as the "effectively a big bullet" will likely do all I need if I am off by an inch or 3 in any direction... this goes back to Lee's description of light in, blood out and disruption of important anatomical processes.Sorry, didn't understand at first that for HD we no longer point a shotgun but need take careful aim with effectively a big bullet,
I never "slap" a trigger... I squeeze mine.and we don't slap the trigger with both eyes open but take a proper position, get a cheek weld, sight alignment, control our breath, squeeze the trigger like an eye-dropper, follow through...
I can be deadly accurate from many positions but only due to the fact that me and this gun have been together for a long time and we have, jointly, made many piles of hulls. But a shoulder mount and consistent, repeatable cheek weld are my most accurate.
They were thinking that they ought to make do with what was available until advancements in technology made a better man stopper.What were the idiots thinking before sensitive tactical cops couldn't shoot their way out of a paper bag, lawyers, and FliteControl* wads?
Even you can, in all your infinite wisdom, will agree that the old stuff was never called "manshot" and the new stuff will continue to be called "buckshot" due to pellet sizes used even though for long range deer hunting we choose a bit harder recoiling faster traveling payload.
Brent
*Warning: LE ammo is NOT recommended for deer or bear hunting.
Sez who? I haven't heard that one before. The LE ammo I prefer to use (Federal's LE127 00) is a full velocity 9-pellet 1325 fps load, and given published information is apparently no different from Federal's PFC154 00 hunting load.
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/buckshot.aspx?id=516
http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/shotshell/tacticalbuckshot.aspx
I can see not suggesting any reduced recoil buckshot load for hunting (I won't even use RR for HD given a choice), if that's the intention, but a blanket statement like the one quoted above is far too broad brush and without foundation as far as I can see.
lpl
Sez who? I haven't heard that one before. The LE ammo I prefer to use (Federal's LE127 00) is a full velocity 9-pellet 1325 fps load, and given published information is apparently no different from Federal's PFC154 00 hunting load.
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/buckshot.aspx?id=516
http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/shotshell/tacticalbuckshot.aspx
I can see not suggesting any reduced recoil buckshot load for hunting (I won't even use RR for HD given a choice), if that's the intention, but a blanket statement like the one quoted above is far too broad brush and without foundation as far as I can see.
lpl
Ive never used #1 for self defense, but I have killed a fair # of deer with it. Before the the internet and any of us knew anything about ballistics gellatin we would put up a paper plate, back of twenty five or thirty yards and let fly. Whatever shot size and choke combo put the most pellets in that plate is what we hunted with. For my 2 3/4" chambered, 28 inch barreled, modified choke, 1100 it was Winchester #1 and #0.
On Actual flesh and bone I never saw ANY difference in pellet size. If the deer was close enough and the pellets struck a vital area, it died. PERIOD. Some died quicker than others. Pellets through the lungs were fatal but the sometimes the deer went a ways, break both shoulders or clip the spine and they piled up right there. If a deer was close enough we shot in the head. DRT. Hundreds of thousands of deer have been killed with 12, 16 and 20 gauges, with everything from #000 to #4, so common sense would tell you that at those sizes in the vitals would also be fatal to humans.
If it kept me awake at nights, I would get a target and see what shot best out of my scattergun at 15-20 yds. I would also actually learn how to shoot one.
The idea of aiming a shotgun defeats its purpose. Might as well use a carbine. IF your shotgun fits you correctly it should shoot where you look, whether the payload is #8 or #00 and the target is clay or flesh and bone. I assure you we were not "aiming" at those deer busting out of cover. We were looking intently where we wanted the pellets to go. The guys that couldnt hit anything had one eye closed and were "aiming". Gun fit and muscle memory are the only "sights" necessary on a shotgun.
On Actual flesh and bone I never saw ANY difference in pellet size. If the deer was close enough and the pellets struck a vital area, it died. PERIOD. Some died quicker than others. Pellets through the lungs were fatal but the sometimes the deer went a ways, break both shoulders or clip the spine and they piled up right there. If a deer was close enough we shot in the head. DRT. Hundreds of thousands of deer have been killed with 12, 16 and 20 gauges, with everything from #000 to #4, so common sense would tell you that at those sizes in the vitals would also be fatal to humans.
If it kept me awake at nights, I would get a target and see what shot best out of my scattergun at 15-20 yds. I would also actually learn how to shoot one.
The idea of aiming a shotgun defeats its purpose. Might as well use a carbine. IF your shotgun fits you correctly it should shoot where you look, whether the payload is #8 or #00 and the target is clay or flesh and bone. I assure you we were not "aiming" at those deer busting out of cover. We were looking intently where we wanted the pellets to go. The guys that couldnt hit anything had one eye closed and were "aiming". Gun fit and muscle memory are the only "sights" necessary on a shotgun.
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hardworker
New member
It's a well known fact that after the invention of the internet anything smaller than 44 mag and 000 buck became about as effective as a paintball gun
That is what we called "swing shooting". And I know plenty of guys who pile up deer with rifles on the run too.I assure you we were not "aiming" at those deer busting out of cover. We were looking intently where we wanted the pellets to go.
And there are times and places where I, personally, prefer to AIM my gun. Squirrel sitting still on a limb, feral cat squeaked to a halt... I am not fond of firing a second shot when one could be a clean kill. Why would a person "swing" on a stationary target?
An intruder gets what ever is in my gun at the time... I think I have #4 bird in it right now since I do not have any one job weapons. The snake is due for a squirrel and my dogs are quick to run them so I need the gun ready right now.
The buck I have here is only #3 but I will keep a tube full of 00 when I get a 12 gauge to add to my meager but capable "arsenal"...
Brent
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I am just a frugal man... Spartan, utilitarian actually. That 20 was bought with short barrel intended for my wife. She won't practice but every year or so she has me walk her thru the functions. She will use it if needed.
I went years with very little (literally) in the way of home defense following a burglary that cost me all of my firearms including the 20 gauge.
I got it back 11 years later from the city PD where I lived at time of theft.
The 20 does anything I need it to do. It has been really tuff to justify a new gun to myself. I now have my heart set on a new Mossberg 930 auto loader in blue and walnut with 26 inch barrel. If I ever get that, it will always have 00 in it or very near it.
Brent
I went years with very little (literally) in the way of home defense following a burglary that cost me all of my firearms including the 20 gauge.
I got it back 11 years later from the city PD where I lived at time of theft.
The 20 does anything I need it to do. It has been really tuff to justify a new gun to myself. I now have my heart set on a new Mossberg 930 auto loader in blue and walnut with 26 inch barrel. If I ever get that, it will always have 00 in it or very near it.
Brent
Actually the closest I seen to that term in print was in the June 2011 NRA American Hunter mag and they are writing about rifle shooting at running game as "swing through".
So if you see a bunny or squirrel stationary, you just swing the gun up and fire?
Is that 100% hit rate? My method is but we are now far from the topic of #1 buck for HD... Someone care to start a thread here or in hunting regarding the art of the mount and fire techniques?
As I said, I am frugal... I do not wing shoot game birds as the cost per pound/meal is too high with practice and hunt ammo costs.
Brent
So if you see a bunny or squirrel stationary, you just swing the gun up and fire?
Is that 100% hit rate? My method is but we are now far from the topic of #1 buck for HD... Someone care to start a thread here or in hunting regarding the art of the mount and fire techniques?
As I said, I am frugal... I do not wing shoot game birds as the cost per pound/meal is too high with practice and hunt ammo costs.
Brent
ForneyRider
New member
I picked up Remington HD 12ga 2x4 2 3/4in. @ 1250fps. They were 10count/box for a lot of dough and 5count/box Winchester Supreme 00 buck 3in @1450fps were about $6.50.
A lot of very interesting discussion on this topic, hmmmm...
Instead of giving the link to Wakeman's opinions I am going to post the link to the Firearms Tactical Institute finding which Wakeman references.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
And if you want to read what Randy Wakeman says on the subject:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm
Instead of giving the link to Wakeman's opinions I am going to post the link to the Firearms Tactical Institute finding which Wakeman references.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
And if you want to read what Randy Wakeman says on the subject:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm
Were getting off topic here, but I mount my shotgun focus on my target and shoot. If the target is moving so is my gun. I actually dont have a bead on the two shotguns I shoot the most. They are nothing more than a distraction for your eyes, IMO.
The shotgun goes to where you are looking. The mount and move should be smooth so that your eyes never come off the target. With practice your hands will move to where your eyes are looking. It does not matter if the target is stationary or moving.
The shotgun goes to where you are looking. The mount and move should be smooth so that your eyes never come off the target. With practice your hands will move to where your eyes are looking. It does not matter if the target is stationary or moving.
Saltydog235
New member
Were getting off topic here, but I mount my shotgun focus on my target and shoot. If the target is moving so is my gun. I actually dont have a bead on the two shotguns I shoot the most. They are nothing more than a distraction for your eyes, IMO.
The shotgun goes to where you are looking. The mount and move should be smooth so that your eyes never come off the target. With practice your hands will move to where your eyes are looking. It does not matter if the target is stationary or moving.
True dat. Shotguns are point and shoot. The only time a shotgun trigger should be squeezed is if its on a rifled barrel with a slug, and technically you have a rifle at that point. You don't sight a shotgun otherwise.
I'd be inclined to take frugal shotgunner's with a grain of salt. Too much read theory and not enough real life practice. Personally, the only time I mount the gun is on target aquisition, then its point fire and pick up the dead shtuff.
You might not but I do... For a few circumstances.You don't sight a shotgun otherwise.
While I may be frugal now, there was a time when I could honestly tell the walmart store that I wanted to buy all of the ammo in what ever caliber/gauge fit the latest new purchase...I'd be inclined to take frugal shotgunner's with a grain of salt. Too much read theory and not enough real life practice. Personally, the only time I mount the gun is on target aquisition, then its point fire and pick up the dead shtuff.
And this practice took place ONCE PER WEEK!!!! 4 times per month unless there were 5 thursdays at which time it was 5 new purchases per month... AT LEAST!
Was fun to fill a buggy with a shopping cart of 12 gauge to go along with my new walmart purchased Mossberg 500 Bullpup!
And i would be low on ammo by sunday night as I threw shooting days every weekend possible for my "Club Brothers" and I bought the ammo used in my guns.
As for practice... you really are barkin' up a slick tree. Granted, I do not practice or fun shoot like I once did but it isn't just about the money... I am at a point in my life where 5 rounds pre huntin' season is all I need to shake the rust off myself.
During the year, I am a one shot killer of squirrels for Jr.'s pet snake which can easily handle 2 per week. As well, I am equally lethal on feral cats and other uninvited trespassing species. Why spend $.50 on 2 rounds when .25 for one can get the job done EVERYTIME?
Brent
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445654
And every once in a while even this blind squirrel does follow through/swing through shooting and manage to pull off a kill...
If you can't handle seein' a dead cat, do not open the link.
Brent
And every once in a while even this blind squirrel does follow through/swing through shooting and manage to pull off a kill...
If you can't handle seein' a dead cat, do not open the link.
Brent
Saltydog235
New member
Where's the golf clap smiley? We need one for the pat's oneself on the back too.
Congrats on killing a kitty cat and buying out Wal-Mart every week. Sounds like they would have started to anticipate your purchases and stocked more or did you just buy that up too? Never met anyone that hit everything they shot at, must be a helluva feeling to be that good. I bet you got stickers on your gun barrels too. You drink Do Equis too?
FOS
Congrats on killing a kitty cat and buying out Wal-Mart every week. Sounds like they would have started to anticipate your purchases and stocked more or did you just buy that up too? Never met anyone that hit everything they shot at, must be a helluva feeling to be that good. I bet you got stickers on your gun barrels too. You drink Do Equis too?
FOS
Saltydog235
New member
No barrell stickers? Dern I was sure there would be a "Meat Stick" or at least a "***** Kwiller" one. Did you lug a ruck filled with bricks 10 miles up hill in that "hunert degree 90% humidity" first?
I use to shoot flies with my Red Ryder. Had a sadistic cousin shove a bottle rocket up a cats arse too. That was a sad sound. He'd of come running to help with your cat problem. Sort of the Hanibal Lecter of Felines.
I use to shoot flies with my Red Ryder. Had a sadistic cousin shove a bottle rocket up a cats arse too. That was a sad sound. He'd of come running to help with your cat problem. Sort of the Hanibal Lecter of Felines.