$1 Billion in fraud from Hurrican Katrina! We need a national ID card!!!
- Thread starter stephen426
- Start date
stephen426
New member
I hate to break it to you guys but your whole idea of privacy is pretty much a myth. There is so much information that is public record and the internet makes it easier to for example, my wife went online to pay a parking ticket. On that same website, she noticed that you could look up marriage records as well. With just the first and last name of either the bride OR groom you can get the wedding date and birthdays. Even scarrier is Property records. With just the first and last names and city of residence, you can easily find someone's address.
I believe that most of us work. You have to submit your name, social security number, date of birth, address, and tons of other additional information. Most of us drive and that means that the government has all of the information listed on your driver license as well as your picture. Don't forget that most states require you to update your address on your license within 10 days of moving to a new address. How many of you have a concealed weapons permit? Did you have to submit a full set of fingerprints and a photo to the police department like I did? Doesn't that qualify as giving the government your information? How about the required background checks that you go through everytime you buy a gun? Take a look at that little yellow form next time you buy a gun. Who do you think that gun dealer is referencing your information from? How many of you have credit cards? You would be suprised how much information is available about your credit history. Anytime you travel, you have to submit your information to the airlines, who make all of their information available to the government. About the only mode of transport that does not require ID is by bus.
The goverment already has tons of information on us. Unless you live in a shell, the government knows who and were you are. How come BATF has not stormed into your house to take away your guns? We have rights and we need to defend those rights. I don't recall the right to privacy being in our Bill of Rights. The closest I could find was the 4th Ammendment which states:
According to a friend of mine who is a deportation officer, the police do have the right to detain you and ask for an identification. This is not considered a unreasonable search according to her since they can pretty much claim probable cause.
I believe that most of us work. You have to submit your name, social security number, date of birth, address, and tons of other additional information. Most of us drive and that means that the government has all of the information listed on your driver license as well as your picture. Don't forget that most states require you to update your address on your license within 10 days of moving to a new address. How many of you have a concealed weapons permit? Did you have to submit a full set of fingerprints and a photo to the police department like I did? Doesn't that qualify as giving the government your information? How about the required background checks that you go through everytime you buy a gun? Take a look at that little yellow form next time you buy a gun. Who do you think that gun dealer is referencing your information from? How many of you have credit cards? You would be suprised how much information is available about your credit history. Anytime you travel, you have to submit your information to the airlines, who make all of their information available to the government. About the only mode of transport that does not require ID is by bus.
The goverment already has tons of information on us. Unless you live in a shell, the government knows who and were you are. How come BATF has not stormed into your house to take away your guns? We have rights and we need to defend those rights. I don't recall the right to privacy being in our Bill of Rights. The closest I could find was the 4th Ammendment which states:
According to a friend of mine who is a deportation officer, the police do have the right to detain you and ask for an identification. This is not considered a unreasonable search according to her since they can pretty much claim probable cause.
AugustWest
New member
Being halfway down a slippery slope doesn't make it ok to let go and slide the rest of the way down. Wrong is wrong.
This is the result of the USSC's Hiibel decision. One in a recent string of wrongs they've committed.
+1 to that
stephen426
New member
Jager1,
if you want to turn this into a personal attack, then I won't bother to waste my time responding to your posts. If you want to have an intellectual debate, then I'm all ears.
One other thing is this thread is about if there is any value of a having a national ID card and if it would prevent fraud... not about whether the government is responsible for helping out its citizens or about self sufficiency.
Coinneach,
I know that nothing short of mind control can prevent crimes from occuring or even fraud from occuring. Having the National ID card WITH biometric data makes it a whole lot easier to catch those criminals and defrauders. In the hurricane Katrina example, if someone has already received aid, their finger print will allow them to be positively identified and no addtional aid will be given. If I tell you that I lost my wallet and that my name is Jim Bob, could you verify it? Even if you took a picture of me, how would you compare thousands of pictures. Now if there was some database where a picture would pop up when your name was entered, then it would be of some value. By the way, the police already have this. If you say you left your license at home, they could look you up on their laptops by searching for your name.
if you want to turn this into a personal attack, then I won't bother to waste my time responding to your posts. If you want to have an intellectual debate, then I'm all ears.
One other thing is this thread is about if there is any value of a having a national ID card and if it would prevent fraud... not about whether the government is responsible for helping out its citizens or about self sufficiency.
Coinneach,
I know that nothing short of mind control can prevent crimes from occuring or even fraud from occuring. Having the National ID card WITH biometric data makes it a whole lot easier to catch those criminals and defrauders. In the hurricane Katrina example, if someone has already received aid, their finger print will allow them to be positively identified and no addtional aid will be given. If I tell you that I lost my wallet and that my name is Jim Bob, could you verify it? Even if you took a picture of me, how would you compare thousands of pictures. Now if there was some database where a picture would pop up when your name was entered, then it would be of some value. By the way, the police already have this. If you say you left your license at home, they could look you up on their laptops by searching for your name.
Stephen, you have far more faith in a system which has repeatedly proven itself to be broken beyond repair than I do. Can you, with your knowledge of history, honestly believe that biometric data can't be forged, stolen, or used in illegal ways by those who you trust to protect it?
stephen426
New member
Coinneach said:
Coinneach,
I am fully aware that my opinion has no impact on your rights. I merely stated that our right of privacy was not guaranteed specifically in the bill of rights. While the 9th Ammendment states that "we have rights even if they are not specifically listed on the bill of rights", there are many laws that do limit our rights. If you really feel that you have a right to privacy, try coming back into the US without your passport or try getting on a plane without an official ID.
stephen426
New member
Coinneach,
The personnel information from the US Department of Energy's Nuclear Weapons Agency was hacked. If that can be done, I believe that almost any system CAN be compromised. What percentage of the population can defeat or alter their biometric data? I can guarantee that it is infinantly smaller than those that can forge an ID card. If you eliminate just 80% of the problem, you have accomplished a tremendous feat.
Maybe I am a little naive in my trust of the government. It is our responsibility to research those we vote into power and watch their actions. If we do that, I have faith that our free and democratic society will carry out the will of the people (majority).
The personnel information from the US Department of Energy's Nuclear Weapons Agency was hacked. If that can be done, I believe that almost any system CAN be compromised. What percentage of the population can defeat or alter their biometric data? I can guarantee that it is infinantly smaller than those that can forge an ID card. If you eliminate just 80% of the problem, you have accomplished a tremendous feat.
Maybe I am a little naive in my trust of the government. It is our responsibility to research those we vote into power and watch their actions. If we do that, I have faith that our free and democratic society will carry out the will of the people (majority).
First of all, thank you for responding to my question...this thread has become a multiheaded beast.stephen426 said:
This could be done today. We don't need to know who the fingerprint belongs to, just that it was used before.stephen426 said:
A national ID card would quickly become the cornerstone of your identity. It would be exploited and abused by financial and healthcare institutions, lost on removable drives by government contractors and sold for pennies on the black market. Our government and private institutions are not prepared to handle that type of information responsibly.
I believe it will happen eventually, but now is the wrong time and FEMA is, IMO, the wrong reason.
stephen426
New member
jcims,
You have made some highly valid points and yes this thread is really taking all sorts of twists and turns. You have stated my point more concisely than I have up to this point by saying "A national ID card would quickly become the cornerstone of your identity". That is the whole idea behind a national ID card.
As for potential abuses, doesn't our current stuation already permit that to happen? By requiring biometric data, simply having someone's facts and figures would not be sufficient to establish their identity. Many credit cards now offer their card holders the option of putting their picture on the card. Isn't that a form of biometric data? PIN numbers can be stolen or guessed and are easily defeated.
Folks, biometric data is being collected whether we like it or not. As I have already mentioned, practically all states require a full set of finger prints and a photo ID be submitted for a concealed weapons permit. Many foreign travellers are fingerprinted and photographed when passing through immigration. We need to know who is crossing our borders. Isn't it time that we have the ability to ascertain who we have within our borders?
jcims said:
jcims,
There is no need to thank me. I appreciate your insight and more importantly, your ability to hold an intelligent debate without resporting to personal attacks. You have my respect even if we may have differing opinions.
I have a friend who had her house nearly destroyed by the hurricane that came after Katrina, and because a FEMA inspector put an ordinary X instead of an X in a box on her house, she couldn't get any relief money after going heavily into five digits on tree removal and house repairs. Or something like that.
Meanwhile, morbidly obese women with five bratty kids show up all over the place buying X-boxes and bigscreens proclaiming "yayuh, dat FEMA done me right dis year!"
I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of fraud directly corresponds to the level of welfare usage, per area.
Meanwhile, morbidly obese women with five bratty kids show up all over the place buying X-boxes and bigscreens proclaiming "yayuh, dat FEMA done me right dis year!"
I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of fraud directly corresponds to the level of welfare usage, per area.
AugustWest
New member
From your first post:
Some of us believe that the problem isn't the lack of national ID's, but "whether the government is responsible for helping out its citizens or about self sufficiency." It's entirely appropriate to argue that based upon your original post.
What if the majority believe that firearms ownership should be illegal? What if it believes that free speech rights should be abridged, or that the police should be able to enter your home and search it at any time without probable cause? Too much power in the hands of the majority is a very dangerous thing. Our Constitution and its first 10 Amendments were designed to protect us from majorities.
I guess it comes down to whether you're willing to trust government and the majority to preserve freedom. I don't. So I greatly mistrust any proposal that will put more power into their hands.
Please, do not attempt to claim some sort of moral high ground because I am pointing out the idiocy and ineffectiveness of your position. With 6 people agreeing with you in the posted poll, 6 people “unsure” and 36 (76%) offering a resounding NO, this places you in the minority opinion and certainly opens you up to contempt. I disagree with what you claim are merits of a national ID card for reasons others have astutely stated previously. I needn’t debate with you. Your position defeats itself. Telling others to “think through” their position prior to posting isn’t a personal insult? Hypocrisy and a refusal to acknowledge your own repugnant behavior. With those traits, sounds like you’d make a great door-to-door salesman. Do you really think I care if you respond to me or not? I’ve only a passing interest is whether or not anyone responds positively to your advocacy of such a proposition. Suffice it to say, my interest is satisfied I needn't waste many electrons.
It won’t. And no amount of your claiming it will is going to change that.
You did. You lost. Get over it.
Let me make sure I understand this. The govt fails to take care of someones every need, and your answer is to give the govt more control? Then we wonder why everybody thinks the govt is the answer for everything. If someone doesn't clear out when a hurricane is coming they are a fool. Don't tell me they couldnt get out. Theyre city govt failed them there. As for someone being to poor to prepare, anybody can work. None of them are tied down. This is America, where you can go anywhere you want and live and work and better yourself. I fail to see how a natl ID would do anything positive at all. Or maybe you dont believe we would all get an asterisk on ours to denote our ownership of guns. NO WAY. ERIC
Scott Conklin
New member
I suppose a NID might, might, have some use and purpose...if everyone had one and nobody faked them. As one guy who'll not take one and who will create whatever fakes and frauds he can I'll be helping to throw a wrench in the whole works.
FedGov has more than enough info and it is too centralized already. Giving them more in a simpler, easier to use Economy Size is quite probably insane.
FedGov has more than enough info and it is too centralized already. Giving them more in a simpler, easier to use Economy Size is quite probably insane.
stephen426
New member
Big Ruger said:
Big Ruger,
The bolded part of your post is NOT my point. Whether or not the government handouts was not the point of this thread nor is whether or not the residents of New Orleans should bear the responsibility because they failed to evacuate.
My point is that I feel a National ID card with a biometric database will greatly reduce fraud. This may be fraud related to credit cards, employment eligability, or government aid such as after hurrican Katrina (whether we should even be giving aid is another another matter).
I believe that the main issue here has to deal with a distrust of our government. I also believe that this forum attracts more conspiracy theorists than most (maybe there is good reason for it too?). As noted on my previous posts, concealed weapons permits are issued by the government and require all of your personal data as well as a finger print and photo. Gun purchases require background check that are verified through who? The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Do you really believe that they don't know who has and who doesn't have guns? I believe we are making big strides in the war against gun control. With only 4 states denying permits and another 10 states restricting permits, we have come a hell of a long way. Furthermore, many states now have reciprocity agreements which allow residents of any state recognizing their carry permit to carry.
Maybe we should just start buying our guns off the streets and carrying them without carry permits lest the government find out we have guns.
Scott Conklin
New member
OUTSTANDING idea! Why didn't anyone think of this before? Wait...they did, and it worked ok...
stephen426
New member
Since everyone is saying that the residents of New Orleans are responsible for their own misfortune by not evacuating, I want to know many of you guys actually have any experience with hurricanes. I'm willing to be that many of you (if you lived in New Orleans) would have stayed guarding your precious stockpiles of supplies. Many of you would probably even scoff at mandatory evacuations, saying "like hell I'm going to let the government to leave my home and all that I've worked for.".
I wonder how useful your preparations might be if your house was flooded up to its roof. How much of your supplies could you reasonably carry in your car and how long would it last you? Would you actually leave when the possibility of getting hit by a hurricane was still pretty remote? Would you leave your home, the majority of your possessions, your businesses (if you own one), your jobs? Maybe most of you are fairly well off and can afford to just up and leave
I live in Florida and we have had our fair share of hurricanes. Very few people leave unless a storm is within 24-48 hours away. According to the Red Cross, a hurricane warning is issued when hurricane conditions are POSSIBLE within 36 hours. A hurricane warning is issued when a storm is EXPECTED to hit within 24 hours. Even 48 hours is a very short time to get everything and go (depending on how many people are evacuating). Lines at gas stations get crazy, last minute supply shoppers go crazy (this is their fault for not being prepared earlier of course), and the worst part is that the roads get crazy. The problem is that Florida is a peninsula and the only way out is north. If the roads get crazy congested as they often do, you may end up weathering the storm in your car. I sure as hell would not want to be stuck in my car during a major storm. Before this turns into a debate as to whether or not our location of choice for living makes us liable for any catastrophies that may happen, don't forget that natural disasters can strike almost anywhere. Maybe we should just abandon some of the most valuable real estate in the US (California and Florida for example). There are even predicitions that a major hurricane could go as far north as New York, and they are definately NOT prepared for it. This is just a little info about how it really is in the hurricane zone. We have had years and years without a hurricane. I guess it is as they say... "When it rains, it pours!"
I wonder how useful your preparations might be if your house was flooded up to its roof. How much of your supplies could you reasonably carry in your car and how long would it last you? Would you actually leave when the possibility of getting hit by a hurricane was still pretty remote? Would you leave your home, the majority of your possessions, your businesses (if you own one), your jobs? Maybe most of you are fairly well off and can afford to just up and leave
I live in Florida and we have had our fair share of hurricanes. Very few people leave unless a storm is within 24-48 hours away. According to the Red Cross, a hurricane warning is issued when hurricane conditions are POSSIBLE within 36 hours. A hurricane warning is issued when a storm is EXPECTED to hit within 24 hours. Even 48 hours is a very short time to get everything and go (depending on how many people are evacuating). Lines at gas stations get crazy, last minute supply shoppers go crazy (this is their fault for not being prepared earlier of course), and the worst part is that the roads get crazy. The problem is that Florida is a peninsula and the only way out is north. If the roads get crazy congested as they often do, you may end up weathering the storm in your car. I sure as hell would not want to be stuck in my car during a major storm. Before this turns into a debate as to whether or not our location of choice for living makes us liable for any catastrophies that may happen, don't forget that natural disasters can strike almost anywhere. Maybe we should just abandon some of the most valuable real estate in the US (California and Florida for example). There are even predicitions that a major hurricane could go as far north as New York, and they are definately NOT prepared for it. This is just a little info about how it really is in the hurricane zone. We have had years and years without a hurricane. I guess it is as they say... "When it rains, it pours!"