$1 Billion in fraud from Hurrican Katrina! We need a national ID card!!!

[stephen426]

You obviously have no concept of what being prepared for a disaster is all about. It's a way of life and smart one and I shouldn't have to pay for other people that don't take the time to prepare themselves.

In that case, why don't you enlighten me? I live in Miami and I am well aware that I may may get hit with a hurricane. I have my canned food, bottled water, propane tanks, flash lights, batteries, first aid kits, a couple of gas cans, and my guns of course. How long do you think I can survive off of these things? I probably have at least a week to 10 days worth of supplies. Even if I had a month's supply of food and water, what would I do after that? What if I just happened to be really unlucky and had a random tornado touch down and wipe out my stock pile? What about an electrical fire?

My point is that it is impossible to plan for every possible circumstance. You might be wealthy enough to stockpile supplies and buy sufficient insurance. What about those that are less fortunate? Another thing to consider is how long can you reasonably expect to sustain yourself?

 

[Eghad]

You obviously have no concept of what being prepared for a disaster is all about. It's a way of life and smart one and I shouldn't have to pay for other people that don't take the time to prepare themselves.

You can be prepared out the wazoo....and still not be prepared. Mother nature has a way of throwing some wicked punches. A Hurricane can take out all your prep in minutes.......

 

[Wildcard]

Furthermore, is it someone's fault if they cannot AFFORD to prepare? Is it someone's fault they are not wealthy?

No, its not their fault. But, its not my responsibility to be forced to pay via my tax dollar. If I want to help (and I did), private charity is the vehicle to do so.

How about we take the tornado example you gave us. What if a tornado wiped out your house? Should the goverment leave you to fend for yourself?

Happened to my Grandparents, and their neighbors. Funny, I did not see any FEMA trucks, people tracking them down to give them credit cards at the taxpayers expense.

Either that or you associate unpreparedness with stupidity.

Yes, I do. If you know a CAT 5 is heading your way, you head north, fast. I watched an interview with a lady, after Katrina hit. One of the responses she gave to a question sums it up for me. It was: "If it would have hit next week I would have had my check." You plan, you prepare. I know you cant plan for everything, thats a given. But, dont expect taxpayers to put you up, or rebuild your house for you. That is not right. Sounds a little like "each according to their need". Let private charties do what they do. Let the government rebuild the infrastructure. Rebuilding roadways, etc....on the taxpayers dime is one thing, rebuilding your house is another.

 

[stephen426]

Wildcard,

please reread the following...

First of all, how accurate have hurricane prediction models been? Would you leave almost everything you have if there is a possibility that a hurricane will strike? When a hurricane is imminent, it is often too late to get supplies and prepare, much less evacuate.

Hurricane tracking models never predicted that Katrina would pick up strength so quickly. By the time they knew it was a catagory 5 and headed their way, it was too late to do anything. If I had to choose between getting stuck on the highways in a catagory 5 storm or weathering it out in my home or a shelter, I wouold stay too. As they say, hind sight is 20/20. No one thought that the levees would break. Besides, the levees were built by the Army Corp of Engineers and they accepted the blame for not properly fortifying the levees. One problem is that Nagin did not order an evacuation earlier.

Wildcard, are you going to pack up and leave anytime there is a tropical depression headed your way? It is not practical to just get up and go on the slim possibility you will get hit. Like I said, hurricane tracking is about probablilities rather than an exact science. I believe that most of us here are employed. Would your boss put up with you not showing up for work based on the possibility that you might get hit by a hurricane? Furthermore, could you afford to evacuate everytime there was a threat? Last time I checked, airfare, gas, and hotels weren't free. Those who wait too long can NOT evacuate since the highways clog up.

The reality of it is your tax dollars go to many things that do not benefit you directly, if in any way at all (think of the many special interest groups, the war in Iraq, the billions of dollars given in foreign aid). the truth of the matter is that we are the protector of the free world. We must do what is right and help others even though they may never help us in return because that is what the United States is about. Don't you believe that we should help our own people?

I'm somewhat prepared but I'd certainly welcome a helping hand from anyone if I were in their situation. I am a honest law abiding citizen. If push came to shove and I didn't get the assistance I needed, I might be forced to turn to crime if that is what it took to feed my family. There certainly wouldn't be any jobs available even if I wanted to. I feel that this govenrment aid is designed to keep become from becoming so desperate.

 

[jcims]

We're getting sidetracked from the original question. Exactly how does a national ID card prevent this kind of fraud?

This was a localized disaster...why wasn't state id sufficient? I'll tell you why, because they weren't going to say no to someone that didn't have their state id, and you're not going to convince me they will now say no to someone that doesn't have their national id...

We as a country (both gov't and private sector) are not prepared to safely handle a new form of citizen identification. We just need to make better use of what we have, and make a few examples of those that got busted with their hands in the cookie jar last time.

 

[Twycross]

I read over the original post, and the summary of the benefits of a national ID card, and I am less than persuaded. Please correct me if I am misreading.

1. Greatly reduce consumer fraud ...can be swiped with a credit card for verification purposes, or eventually replace individual credit cards altogether ...biometric security ...billions of dollars that could be saved from credit fraud alone ...a finger print database could allow authorities to pull up a picture and other information to properly identify someone...

I don't see why a national ID is required. Regardless of where you stand on the whole biometric idea, this could be just as easily put onto a driver's license or standard state ID card. Also, I am not sold on the idea that biometrics can uncrackable. Anything designed by humans can be broken by humans. When you build a better mousetrap, mother nature will build a better mouse.

As for replacing credit cards, :barf:

What a wonderful idea; give the government control over your ability to buy electronically. I'm sure this power would never be abused

2. Significantly cut back on illegal workers in the US. Rather than 10 acceptable forms of ID or a combination of 19 different IDs, a national ID card could be much more easily verified and much more difficult to forge. If biometrics such as fingerprints were required as well, forged documents will become very difficult. Many employers still hire people "under the table" and these IDs won't prevent that. Random stings involving fines will greatly decrease illegal employment since authorities can ask for ID cards of all employees working there and compare it to the employers federal employer ID. This will significantly cut back on employee tax fraud and will probably even help out our social security situation.

You admit that the problem is not the lack of an effective ID system, but the 'under the table' hirings. We already have numerous effective ID forms, and a new one is not going to help anything. A new, single, ID form might make the process of verification more convenient, but that is all. And 'convenience' is hardly a compelling argument for such an invasion of privacy. I fail to see how a national ID will help the 'social security situation', whatever that might be.

3. Reduce or eliminate cases of mistaken identity. Retinal scans and fingerprints are practically foolproof. With a national database, there will be less innocent people put in jail and more criminals going to jail. Aliases will be practically useless.

We already have a good ID system. Federalizing it is not going to improve anything in that regard, and as I have previously stated, there is nothing about biometrics which requires a national base. It can be done with a drivers license. And that's assuming that we are in favor of biometrics, which is a much debated issue.

Don't you believe that we should help our own people?

As Wildcard has been saying, it may be moral to help those in need, but there is no obligation to do so. If your house gets washed away in the next hurricane, then I can give you aid. But I don't owe it to you, and you have no right to demand it.

 

[Wildcard]

Reduce or eliminate cases of mistaken identity. Retinal scans and fingerprints are practically foolproof. With a national database, there will be less innocent people put in jail and more criminals going to jail. Aliases will be practically useless.

If you believe that, I have some property, on the beach (no disasters will hurt you) in Utah to sell ya.

 

[Wildcard]

NO national ID, no way.

Sorry, had to post again, did no like my post count number, 666.

 

[dmckean44]

Stephen,

I have similar items to what you have except I have an 250 gallon tank of gas and at least 6 months worth of canned and dried food and six months worth of propane and wood to cook with. I also have seeds to plant a garden if things got bad for a while. I wish I had room to raise some livestock but I'm still stuck there. Anytime I used any of this stuff I replenish it immediately.

 

[dmckean44]

But seriously, a national ID card system won't fly in this country. We value our privacy too much. One of the great things about this country was always the ability to travel anonymously. I was always taught in school (during the cold war) that was what separated us from places like the Soviet Union and China.

 

[Trapp]

Stephen,

You're kidding, right?

Just trolling for debate?

For you living in Miami, would have thought you'd have a different attitude about hurricanes.......

 

[gdm]

I dont think a national ID would do anything....good.it might open up a whole new can of worms though.


with the right technology and money, anything can be faked, anything can be abused and most often,ambitious crooks will find a way to do so.


somehow the idea of all my personal data being on a single card doesnt make me feel any better...be it used by the govt for identification or some data control that monitors buying habits.abused..naw

 

[AugustWest]

Your post makes it seem that you hold the resident of New Orleans responsible for what happened.

While what happened to alot of those folks is tragic, living below sea level with water on three sides never struck me as a safe way to live. So yeah, IMO anyone who chose to live there does share some of the responsibility.

The problem wasn't the lack of national ID cards. The problem was a legislative branch and an executive branch overly eager to take other people's money and throw it around so that it would look like something was being done.

 

[stephen426]

We're getting sidetracked from the original question. Exactly how does a national ID card prevent this kind of fraud?

This was a localized disaster...why wasn't state id sufficient? I'll tell you why, because they weren't going to say no to someone that didn't have their state id, and you're not going to convince me they will now say no to someone that doesn't have their national id...

We as a country (both gov't and private sector) are not prepared to safely handle a new form of citizen identification. We just need to make better use of what we have, and make a few examples of those that got busted with their hands in the cookie jar last time.

jcims,

A national ID card must also contain a biometric data for identity confirmation. Lets say that Katrina wiped out any wireless networks and that satallite based communications is too expensive to be practical. If FEMA's agents were equipped with PDAs that could take fingerprint scans and/or retinal scans, then they could account for everyone they gave money to. When they return to thier headquarters, they could upload all of the information to a database and verify that the National ID number matched the finger print or retinal scan. If it proved to be false or if aid requests were duplicated, that data would be downloaded to the PDAs and that person would be rejected or possibly even arrested. The most important thing is that there needs to be one number to positively ID a person and their biometric ID should be linked to that number.

 

[Trapp]

If BATFE's agents were equipped with PDAs that could take fingerprint scans and/or retinal scans, then they could account for everyone that owns guns.

*bold, italic, underlined words were changed to make a point........

 

[stephen426]

While what happened to alot of those folks is tragic, living below sea level with water on three sides never struck me as a safe way to live. So yeah, IMO anyone who chose to live there does share some of the responsibility.

So I guess that means that everyone should move out of Florida. Lets see where hurricanes can strike... Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Hawaii, and possibly the entire Atlantic coast. The after everyone moves out of there, we can move out of any places with seismic activity including the whole state of California. The we can clear out Tornado Alley after that. Face it... Natural disasters are a part of life. You choose to live in Connecticut where it is cold as hell in the winters. One of my cousins died in an auto accident because he slid into oncoming traffic after hitting some black ice. He left behind a newborn daughter and a young wife. You face those risks as well... EVERY WINTER, while I get an occasional hurricane. Did you know that Miami did not have a major hurricane since Hurricane Andrewin 1992? Even though the 2004 season did not really touch South Florida, we can say that South Florida did not have any major storms for 12 years. Our historic average is one big storm per decade. Hopefully we will have many years of hurricane years after this year.

Am I responsible for my own fate since I choose to live here? I guess in part I am. I accept that responsibility and those odds.

 

[stephen426]

You're kidding, right?

Just trolling for debate?

Trapp,

I am not trolling nor am I joking. It seems that many members of this forum want an answer to the illegal immigration problem but most of the suggestions deal with building a fence and shooting any people crossing over like dogs. I know that almost any technology can be defeated but biometric data is much more difficult to defeat. Easily forged IDs will become useless. Very few people has access to the technology required to defeat fingerprints and retinal scans. I'd say that if both were used in conjunction, the chances of establishing a positive ID if very high and the chances of fraud becomes infinantly small.

 

[john1911]

There is a potential for natural disaster anywhere in the U.S.. You need to take that potential into account when you choose where to live. You need to prepare for disaster by planning and getting insurance. If you think you can't afford insurance, you better change your budget. Sell a gun, sell some of your "Bling", skip the movies or eating out, do something.

A National I.D. card won't help.
John

 

[Jager1]

Who is going to clear the debris from the roads and your house? Why don't you pay to have your own garbage dumped. What about medical care? What about calling in the national guard to enforce security and prevent looting? That is government funds.

Who did it before the government assumed that responsibility? Did America fail as a country and a people prior to instituting FEMA? How did they handle medical injuries in the wake of a disaster? What did they do when no National Guard troops were present?

They were SELF-RELIANT. Hard to imagine, huh? Going to offer up how the government might be more proficient at all of the above?

Go tell it on the levee. :barf:

Your post makes it seem that you hold the resident of New Orleans responsible for what happened. Either that or you associate unpreparedness with stupidity.

It wasn't my statement, but I will respond to it.

Yes, I DO hold the residents who lived below sea level, possessed no flood insurance and exhibited no self-sufficiency whatsoever in the face of what was estimated to be the largest storm to hit the city in years responsible for what happened to THEM. Yes, I associate unpreparedness with stupidity. Nature has a law relating to just such instances. Or perhaps you prefer fables? Try the ant and the grasshopper.

Furthermore, is it someone's fault if they cannot AFFORD to prepare? Is it someone's fault they are not wealthy?

In this instance, and predominantly in all instances; yes, it is.

What about preventing credit card fraud?

Don't own credit cards. Work, save and pay cash. Back to that self-sufficiency thing that has you so baffled.

Please think your comments through before posting.

Really? Please indulge yourself in your own advice.

What if...

(countless times)

Reminds me of being on a long road trip with a backseat full of 8 year olds that have a tendency to fail to acknowledge any of the answers to their questions as ending their line of questioning by portraying it as ridiculous.

NO to a national ID card on the basis of any of the reasons presented.

Further, on the basis of historical precedence that allows educated people to know where this idiotic type of argument leads.

Seems to be a common thread in this thread.

Don't make me pull over.

 

[AugustWest]

So I guess that means that everyone should move out of Florida.

That's up to you. You have to decide whether or not the risks outweigh the rewards of living there. But you're not entitled to any handouts if things get ugly.

My retinas...my DNA...how many guns I own...anything else that I choose to do with my life...are none of the government's business unless I'm using them to infringe upon the rights of others.

And cold as hell is Minot, ND in January. CT's just kinda brisk.