$1 Billion in fraud from Hurrican Katrina! We need a national ID card!!!

[stephen426]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13304506/

I can't believe how FEMA is handling OUR tax dollars. I understand that they were trying to get aid to the victims as quickly as possible, but we the taxpayers became the victims. The $1 Billion fraud is a clear indication of FEMA's incompetence.

I believe that the underlying problem is that we do not have a national ID card. While most countries have national ID cards, the only national IDs the US has are passports, permanent or temporary resident cards, or military ID cards. Social security cards have no pictures so they are practically useless for ID purposes. Besides, they are not allowed to be laminated and are probably one of the most highly forged documents in the US. The only official ID most adults have is a driver license which is issued by their state's DMV. For being one of the most advanced countries in the world, this is a major joke.

National ID cards can be issued at the DMV like driver licenses and the information should be forwarded to the federal government. Hell, a national ID card can even replace a driver's license. The information should include name, address, birth date, sex, eye color, social security number and legal status. Fraud prevention elements should include a digital photo taken on-site, bio-metric information such as a finger print. In addition, the card should have a magnetic strip or smart chip to store information. As consumer fraud continues to increase, biometric information will become more and more prevalent. A retinal scan and a full set of fingerprints can be stored on a database.

I know that this view is contrary to the view many members of this board may have. I'm sure many of you have some level of distrust of the government or prefer your privacy. Some may even say I should go ahead and take DNA samples of everyone while I am at it. I feel that having a fraud resistant national ID card will achieve the following:

1. Greatly reduce consumer fraud since there will be one uniform card for the whole country. The ID card can be swiped with a credit card for verification purposes, or eventually replace individual credit cards altogether. This can be combined with biometric security such as requiring a finger print to match the one on file. Right now, finger prints are practically useless unless you have a prior criminal history or have voluntarily submitted your finger prints for a concealed weapon or something similar. Think of the billions of dollars that could be saved from credit fraud alone. Even if someone claimed to have lost their card, a finger print database could allow authorities to pull up a picture and other information to properly identify someone (such as someone filing for FEMA assistance 10 times).

2. Significantly cut back on illegal workers in the US. Rather than 10 acceptable forms of ID or a combination of 19 different IDs, a national ID card could be much more easily verified and much more difficult to forge. If biometrics such as fingerprints were required as well, forged documents will become very difficult. Many employers still hire people "under the table" and these IDs won't prevent that. Random stings involving fines will greatly decrease illegal employment since authorities can ask for ID cards of all employees working there and compare it to the employers federal employer ID. This will significantly cut back on employee tax fraud and will probably even help out our social security situation.

3. Reduce or eliminate cases of mistaken identity. Retinal scans and fingerprints are practically foolproof. With a national database, there will be less innocent people put in jail and more criminals going to jail. Aliases will be practically useless.

This site is pretty impartial and shows the pros and cons of a national ID card. Many of the short comings can be addressed by including biometric data and requiring its use in conjunction with the card for positive ID. Even if a card was lost or stolen, it would be useless since the biometrics would not match. Besides, if biometrics were required, a fraudulent card could still be traced back to the bearer of the fingerprint or retinal scan.

A national ID card would have significantly reduced the possibility of fraud after Hurricane Katrina. By requiring the national ID card (or biometric data in the event the card was "lost"), there would be little or nor chance for multiple requests for aid. It is even possible that the FEMA credit be automatically transferred to the card.

I know that many on this forum value their privacy. The arguments for a national ID card are very compelling though. Lets take a poll on it.

 

[Jguy101]

And guess what happens after you get your National ID? Eventually, you'll be implanted with the VeriChip, of course.

There's an Arab proverb, which I believe I heard here in L&P: If you let a camel stick it's head into your tent, you'll eventually have the entire camel inside.

 

[stephen426]

I know you guys will probably say that we will eventually be branded with the mak of the beast as well. 666

Many countries are using this and there are benefits that cannot be denied. I just want to know if you all feel that the benefits out weigh the consequences.

 

[Wildcard]

No more government bail outs. Let private charity take care of it, not my tax dollars.

 

[Marko Kloos]

How exactly would a National ID Card have fixed the problem of freeloaders deliberately cheating the system?

If I can get federal disaster assistance with a bogus address and SSN simply by claiming I've lost my driver's license and SS card in the disaster, what's to keep me from telling FEMA that my National ID Card swam away as well?

If they can deny me the benefit for lack of a National ID Card, they can just as well deny it to me for lack of any other commonly accepted form of ID. Sorry, your argument is a non-sequitur.

 

[Eghad]

FEMA has a pretty good track record if it only got swindled out of 1 billion....

That is only 4 percent of the 25 billion the rest of the US Government can not account for. Maybe you should write FEMA a thank you letter for only losing a billion.

of course what the story also failed to mention is how much money did go for the right things and did actually help folks. When you read most news stories they are going to focus on only the negative aspects of things...

 

[carbiner]

Ah yes, one government program is failing, so lets create a new one to monitor the other one.

No to ID cards.

 

[Eghad]

I think the National ID card is a good idea for all Politicians in DC

 

[stephen426]

How exactly would a National ID Card have fixed the problem of freeloaders deliberately cheating the system?

If I can get federal disaster assistance with a bogus address and SSN simply by claiming I've lost my driver's license and SS card in the disaster, what's to keep me from telling FEMA that my National ID Card swam away as well?

If they can deny me the benefit for lack of a National ID Card, they can just as well deny it to me for lack of any other commonly accepted form of ID. Sorry, your argument is a non-sequitur.

A national ID card would have significantly reduced the possibility of fraud after Hurricane Katrina. By requiring the national ID card (or biometric data in the event the card was "lost"), there would be little or nor chance for multiple requests for aid. It is even possible that the FEMA credit be automatically transferred to the card.

Markos, I have a friend who is a FEMA inspector. He busted people left and right after Katrina. With biometric data, you're not likely to lose your fingerprints or your retinas. As long as this data is recorded at the time the aid is given, those people can always be tracked down later. Does that make enough sense for you?

 

[rapier144]

I'm with Wildcard on this one.

 

[stephen426]

FEMA has a pretty good track record if it only got swindled out of 1 billion....

That is only 4 percent of the 25 billion the rest of the US Government can not account for. Maybe you should write FEMA a thank you letter for only losing a billion.

of course what the story also failed to mention is how much money did go for the right things and did actually help folks. When you read most news stories they are going to focus on only the negative aspects of things...

eghad,

While 4% of $25 BILLION may seem like a small amount to you, I doubt that many of us feel it is chump change. I am all for helping out those who have been touched by disaster. I am NOT for making them rich or sending them on cruises. We are talking about BILLION with a capital B. Wasteful spending is wasteful spending period. If we had a national ID card system with biometric information, we would greatly reduce the amount of fraud, or at least have a way to prosecute those who did cheat us out of OUR hard earned money. Besides, how much does FEMA have to pay their investigators?

One other side benefit of a National ID card/Biometric database would be the ability to quickly identify the dead. Their families could be contacted or their information could be posted so their family members would not have to worry for days, weeks, or months. This biometric database would also reduce or eliminate the Jane or John Does in hospitals or morgues. No ID? No problem.

 

[Eghad]

eghad,

While 4% of $25 BILLION may seem like a small amount to you, I doubt that many of us feel it is chump change.

its called sarcasm....

 

[stephen426]

No more government bail outs. Let private charity take care of it, not my tax dollars.

Wildcard and rapier144,

I'd hate to be you if something as catastrophic as a catagory 4 hurricane hit you. Lets see how far you would get. What if you aren't wealthy enough to have loads of insurance to cover all that you lost? Besides, how quickly do you think insurance companies paid out claims post Katrina? Do you always carry your insurance policies with you? What will you eat, what will you wear, and where will you sleep while you wait for your insurance money?

Lets take this a step further... What does government bail outs mean to you? Who is going to clear the debris from the roads and your house? Why don't you pay to have your own garbage dumped. What about medical care? What about calling in the national guard to enforce security and prevent looting? That is government funds.

Few people, if any, can survive a natural disaster of that magnitude on their own. Private charities do help a lot. Aren't tax deductions for donations to private charities a form of government bailout? Why don't we eliminate tax deductions for private charities and see what happens to donations?

Please think your comments through before posting. Put yourself in their shoes. You just lost your home and all of your belongings. New Orleans was spared from the full brunt of the storm. While the levies broke and flooded much of the city, few homes were flattened as with hurricane Andrew in 1992. At least they could go into their homes and retrieve some items. Failure to care for those in need lead to a break down in society and victims will be forced to beg or steal. Is that how you feel things should be?

 

[contender6030]

Markos, I have a friend who is a FEMA inspector. He busted people left and right after Katrina. With biometric data, you're not likely to lose your fingerprints or your retinas. As long as this data is recorded at the time the aid is given, those people can always be tracked down later. Does that make enough sense for you?

How exactly would biometric data track down someone that had given you a false name and address? I would think you would also have to plant some sort of a tracking device on them for this to have a chance of working.
One other question-- Exactly how much would this National ID card cost the taxpayers? Seems to me there is more important things to worry about than tracking US citizens, like tracking Illegals that come across the border !

 

[Wildcard]

What does government bail outs mean to you?

Giving people money because they were too stupid to plan for a future emergency.

I grew up in tornado alley, we had a plan. My uncle's family lived in the gulf coast, they had a plan. If you live in an area that you know a big disaster might happen in your lifetime, you plan for it. A national ID card will not help. It is not the governments job to replace your house, car, or put you up in a hotel by using my tax money. Handouts should not be government funded, use private charity to do that.

I contributed to several Katrina relief funds. Several thousand Katrina folks were housed in my area. My wife and I even hired one to work at our business. It is my opinion that charity needs to stay private. I do not want tax money going for booze and breast implants.

If you live in New Orleans, or anywhere on the Gulf coast/atlantic coast, you need to get your head out of your anal region and have an evac plan in place. It is not the job of our government to cover your arse, with my tax money, because you were too stupid to prepare.

 

[stephen426]

How exactly would biometric data track down someone that had given you a false name and address? I would think you would also have to plant some sort of a tracking device on them for this to have a chance of working.
One other question-- Exactly how much would this National ID card cost the taxpayers? Seems to me there is more important things to worry about than tracking US citizens, like tracking Illegals that come across the border !

contender,

How much is not having a national ID card costing us? Just look at credit card fraud and employee tax fraud alone. Fraudulent claims after Hurricane Katrina already cost tax payers $1 BILLION by itself.

As for using biometric data to track someone, a fully integrated system would allow it to be done very easily. By fully integrated, I mean that everyone would have to have their biometric data stored on a database. Biometric data would need to be given when using credit cards, applying for jobs (submit a fingerprint), during traffic stops, voting, unemployment requests, welfare office, etc... Biometric information could even be required anytime someone entered a government building. If the person defrauded the government and the government had positive identification, it would be somewhat easy to track. By basically requiring that biometric information be given for almost everything, they would show up sooner or later (most probably sooner).

As for the illegal issue, a National ID card would be very important. Biometric information cannot be forged, unlike the countless number of fake work permits and social security cards. I believe that illegal immigration must be stemmed from the inside as well as the border. If employers are required to submit biometric information along with IDs, a national database will be able to quickly identify fraudulent applications. INS inspectors could easily and quickly identify citizens and legal immigrants from illegal immigrants.

 

[Eghad]

How do you as an individual plan to get rid of all the debris from an entire city? I just went through Hurricane Rita. The amount of debris from trees was enormous. You couldnt burn it because it was so dry. There is just more than most folks could do even if they grouped together. A lot of communities in SE Texas spent a lot of money helping the Katrina vicitms only to end up being vicitms of Rita. The morning after Rita was a real waker upper. Yes a lot of private citizens started clearing the roads in my small town. So there was a lot of work done here by the citizens without waiting for government help, thats probably why we didnt get much coverage in Texas because folks were too busy getting things back to normal instead of making controversy. Private charities donated a lot of aid also. The local WalMart donated a lot of stuff to the local government and law enforcement to keep them up and running.

 

[stephen426]

Giving people money because they were too stupid to plan for a future emergency.

I grew up in tornado alley, we had a plan. My uncle's family lived in the gulf coast, they had a plan. If you live in an area that you know a big disaster might happen in your lifetime, you plan for it. A national ID card will not help. It is not the governments job to replace your house, car, or put you up in a hotel by using my tax money. Handouts should not be government funded, use private charity to do that.

If you live in New Orleans, or anywhere on the Gulf coast/atlantic coast, you need to get your head out of your anal region and have an evac plan in place. It is not the job of our government to cover your arse, with my tax money, because you were too stupid to prepare.

Wildcard,

Your post makes it seem that you hold the resident of New Orleans responsible for what happened. Either that or you associate unpreparedness with stupidity. First of all, how accurate have hurricane prediction models been? Would you leave almost everything you have if there is a possibility that a hurricane will strike? When a hurricane is imminent, it is often too late to get supplies and prepare, much less evacuate. Furthermore, is it someone's fault if they cannot AFFORD to prepare? Is it someone's fault they are not wealthy?

So far, we have only touched on hurricanes. Lets look at a few other natural disasters. What if there was a tsunami like the one that hit Indonesia? An underwater volcanic eruption or a meteor hitting the ocean could wipe out coastlines. What about earthquakes? It is great to be prepared, but it is impossible to prepare for everything... especially if it expensive to prepare and the odds are not exactly clear.

How about we take the tornado example you gave us. What if a tornado wiped out your house? Should the goverment leave you to fend for yourself? Maybe we should just live where no natural disasters can touch us. That means no coastal cities, no where near fault lines, some place that does not have tornados or other crazy weather, somewhere that does not have wildfires... you get my point (I hope).

If you feel that it is not the govenrment's responsibility to help those affected by catastrophy, than maybe a national ID card won't help in that case. What about preventing credit card fraud? Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

P.S. Thank you for your efforts in helping those affected by the hurricanes. While it would be great if we could count on a helping hand from other like you, what if there was not enough money from private charities? What if there was no central organization to coordinate the relief efforts? Thank God for the American Red Cross, even though there were complaints about their efficiency as well.

 

[dmckean44]

stephen426,

You obviously have no concept of what being prepared for a disaster is all about. It's a way of life and smart one and I shouldn't have to pay for other people that don't take the time to prepare themselves.

 

[Redneckrepairs]

national id ?? when hell freezes over