I took my daughter out with my old starter gun. Youth model 870 wingmaster in 20ga. Its a little big and to front heavy for her. With a little help from me she shot the 3/4oz low brass but didnt want to shoot again. She is determined to hunt but this gun is not going to work for her. I am considering picking up one of the cheap rossi single shot .410's. Has anyone trained their kid with one? Is the recoil on the .410 that much less than a 3/4oz 20ga? I hate to spend money on guns that will get left to the side and not used after a year or 2. I would hate even more to drop money on a semi auto thats cut down. My boys are grown and off to college so my little girl is my new hunting partner so long as we can get a shotgun that she can comfortably use. The other option is to make her follow me around for another year or 2 and only give her range time with the rimfire.
Youth gun .410? Need advice
- Thread starter BoogieMan
- Start date
They grow up to fast !!
Wow, how old is she? ......
Good Luck and;
Be Safe !!!
Wow, how old is she? ......
I did not know they made a youth model, in the Wingmaster. Currently, I have three Grandsons that have all started out with the Youth Model 870-Expresse. Two have now worked up to the 12's in Browning and Remington and the youngest one will inherit the 20. As I can recall, most found the 20 a bit heavy to start but in no time, worked into them. Perhaps start out loading two shells to lighten the load. As far as the .410, if you feel this will work out for her to start, so be it but in no time, she will be shooting the 20. ...
Good Luck and;
Be Safe !!!
jaguarxk120
New member
Be careful of the 410 single shots, they can be very light in weight. The recoil will be more than your 20 gauge pump.
hounddogman
New member
My brother bought a Mossberg 410 pump made for kids short stock etc for his 11 year old godson to shoot clays and it has been a good gun
g.willikers
New member
For the present and near future, a well fitted 20 gauge semi-auto might be the way to go.
An ill fitting shotgun is the worst.
A good fitting one makes all the difference, including with the perceived recoil.
But it takes a real shotgun expert to fit her with one.
So you can probably forget buying the gun at a sporting goods store or most gun shops.
Or how about just hunting for small game with .22s for awhile, yet.
Translation: do her kind of hunting, instead of yours.
An ill fitting shotgun is the worst.
A good fitting one makes all the difference, including with the perceived recoil.
But it takes a real shotgun expert to fit her with one.
So you can probably forget buying the gun at a sporting goods store or most gun shops.
Or how about just hunting for small game with .22s for awhile, yet.
Translation: do her kind of hunting, instead of yours.
She turned 10 on St. Patricks day and asked for her hunting license for her birthday. She actually wants to hunt deer but I explained to her that we need to ease into that with small game. In NJ that pretty much consists of birds with a shotgun at farms. She is not interested in squirrel.
She'll get frustrated fast with a .410. .410's are for experts. Not anywhere near enough shot for a new hunter.
If a 20 ga. pump is too much recoil, buy her a 20 ga. semi-auto. Remington makes a Youth Sportsman Compact 11-87. Not exactly cheap though. Charles Daly has one too. 600CY Compact.
If a 20 ga. pump is too much recoil, buy her a 20 ga. semi-auto. Remington makes a Youth Sportsman Compact 11-87. Not exactly cheap though. Charles Daly has one too. 600CY Compact.
Bill DeShivs
New member
Any pump or semi will be front-heavy. Perhaps find a used NEF or H&R single 20 ga. Cut the stock to fit her, and fit a good recoil pad. The 20 ga. guns are usually on the same frame as the 12 ga. This makes them heavier and cuts down on recoil.
Blindstitch
New member
I started using a 410 to shoot grouse and squirrels. Most of the time the birds were on the ground and closes. The gun had a full wood stock and average barrel.
So when I got my wife into shooting I thought why not get a 410 and if it goes wrong it's mine. I bought a Rossi Youth 22lr 410 combo with the plastic stock because I couldn't find a wood stock.
Bought the shells at $15 a box and headed out to the range. She shot the gun once and it nearly jumped out of her hands, shot it again with the same results so I shot it. The gun weighs in at about 3 pounds and kicks almost as hard as a 12 gauge.
The gun turned into a dedicated 22lr and the 410 barrel hasn't been on since.
Last season I bought a mossberg 500 20 gauge youth and filled the plastic stock with sand. She can shoot that about 50 times before getting tired of the recoil.
So when I got my wife into shooting I thought why not get a 410 and if it goes wrong it's mine. I bought a Rossi Youth 22lr 410 combo with the plastic stock because I couldn't find a wood stock.
Bought the shells at $15 a box and headed out to the range. She shot the gun once and it nearly jumped out of her hands, shot it again with the same results so I shot it. The gun weighs in at about 3 pounds and kicks almost as hard as a 12 gauge.
The gun turned into a dedicated 22lr and the 410 barrel hasn't been on since.
Last season I bought a mossberg 500 20 gauge youth and filled the plastic stock with sand. She can shoot that about 50 times before getting tired of the recoil.
I'd Rather be Huntin
Inactive
I have the Rossi .410 (also has the .22 barrel)
My son is going to be 11 in June. He's on the taller side of his 5th grade class. I bought the Rossi with a .410 barrel and a .22 barrel for him a few years ago. The .410 has a pretty stout kick, and he still doesn't care for it.
He has also shot his grandma's 28 Gauge O/U, and did pretty well with it, for his first skeet shoot. He handled the recoil without a problem, but the gun is a bit long for him. Since then he was able to shoot his cousin's 20 Ga BPS, and did very well with it.... So that's what he wants for his birthday this year (More than an XBOX
)
He's been "Bird Boy" for the last 3-4 years, and is really looking forward to passing the duties to his younger brother
My son is going to be 11 in June. He's on the taller side of his 5th grade class. I bought the Rossi with a .410 barrel and a .22 barrel for him a few years ago. The .410 has a pretty stout kick, and he still doesn't care for it.
He has also shot his grandma's 28 Gauge O/U, and did pretty well with it, for his first skeet shoot. He handled the recoil without a problem, but the gun is a bit long for him. Since then he was able to shoot his cousin's 20 Ga BPS, and did very well with it.... So that's what he wants for his birthday this year (More than an XBOX
)He's been "Bird Boy" for the last 3-4 years, and is really looking forward to passing the duties to his younger brother
Picking a gun for her to start with ....is more about matching something to her upper body strength...so she can aim, and swing the gun..with some reasonable amount of success ( so length and weight are critical issues ). You could probably experiment with a dowel rod and some weight taped to it...to see how much weight she can shoulder and swing comfortably...( use fired shotshells ...filled with lead shot ...as moveable weights ) for balance, etc to evaluate.
A 28ga ...is probably the best choice../ and one of the lighter gas operated semi-autos in 28ga would be even better ....but its more about her upper body strength and the weight of the gun than most everything else.
You need to find that compromise between the overall weight of the gun - and what she is strong enough to handle..and swing smoothly....but a .410 is probably not your best choice - unless you find one in a semi-auto / but the .410 pattern is the issue - its too small - except in the hands of experienced shooters to be sucessful.
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Maybe something like this 20ga Browning ...at about 6 lbs...with a 24" barrel is a good gas operated semi-auto....and you could drop the shells down from the traditional 7/8oz to 3/4oz ( like a 28ga ) ...at around 1150 fps...to reduce the recoil.
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?fid=020B&cid=011&tid=389
Beretta makes a youth model too...in their semi-auto lineup.
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Every kid is different....desire goes a long way to making something work ...but the kids vary so much in upper body strength ...and hand eye coordination from 10 - 16 or so, its not a one gun fits everyone prospect. Some kids are just fine at 10 ....and some are not ready for shotgunning at 15 ....it varies a lot / and primary issue is their upper body strength and desire.
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In general, stay away from fixed breech guns...pumps and over unders...and look for a gas operated semi-auto...and something light enough they can handle it.
A 28ga ...is probably the best choice../ and one of the lighter gas operated semi-autos in 28ga would be even better ....but its more about her upper body strength and the weight of the gun than most everything else.
You need to find that compromise between the overall weight of the gun - and what she is strong enough to handle..and swing smoothly....but a .410 is probably not your best choice - unless you find one in a semi-auto / but the .410 pattern is the issue - its too small - except in the hands of experienced shooters to be sucessful.
------------
Maybe something like this 20ga Browning ...at about 6 lbs...with a 24" barrel is a good gas operated semi-auto....and you could drop the shells down from the traditional 7/8oz to 3/4oz ( like a 28ga ) ...at around 1150 fps...to reduce the recoil.
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/detail.asp?fid=020B&cid=011&tid=389
Beretta makes a youth model too...in their semi-auto lineup.
----------------
Every kid is different....desire goes a long way to making something work ...but the kids vary so much in upper body strength ...and hand eye coordination from 10 - 16 or so, its not a one gun fits everyone prospect. Some kids are just fine at 10 ....and some are not ready for shotgunning at 15 ....it varies a lot / and primary issue is their upper body strength and desire.
-------------------------
In general, stay away from fixed breech guns...pumps and over unders...and look for a gas operated semi-auto...and something light enough they can handle it.
Forget the single shot 410...too light, poor ergos, more kick then expected.
I'll disagree with some about the payload of the 410 being too small, the reason that she'll miss more is because the manufacturers insist on fixed full chokes..at best you'll get a fixed modified choke to many times will pattern tight. Basically they are trying to make 40 yard guns out of a 25 yard gun. If you chose a 410, find at least Modified choke and keep shots to 25 yards or less. Shot sizes bigger than 7 1/2 will generally not be needed and will more likely result in poorer patterns.
One of the biggest problems facing small statured shooters is stock fit. Simply going with a chopped down stock for kids is a poor choice in many cases. If the pistol grip area is too wide or too long (made for adult hands) poor grip and poor shots will result. Look at purpose built youth stocks like thiose found on the Mossberg 505 or 510's. The pistol grip is abreviated so the finger can better reach the trigger. Shims come with the guns so you can grow the stock into the child before you need to buy a new stock with a longer LOP. They also have the forearm moved back so they smaller shooter doesn't have to stretch to reach it resulting in better balance.
If the stock and over all gun fitment is good, the small statured child can better tolerate the weight of the gun and the recoil. If the young lady in question has the upper body strengt to hold up a 510 20 gauge, she will more likely be able to shoot it well. If she can't tolerate the weight of the 20 the 410 can come into play.
A common complaint about the 410 for big guys is that they feel 'whippy'. For someone who can't hold up a heavy gun that gun will swing much more smoothly. Shame the BPS 410 isn't offered in youth models; they have screw in chokes.
Just the $.02 from a guy that is 5'4" and put up with poor stock fit for too long.
I'll disagree with some about the payload of the 410 being too small, the reason that she'll miss more is because the manufacturers insist on fixed full chokes..at best you'll get a fixed modified choke to many times will pattern tight. Basically they are trying to make 40 yard guns out of a 25 yard gun. If you chose a 410, find at least Modified choke and keep shots to 25 yards or less. Shot sizes bigger than 7 1/2 will generally not be needed and will more likely result in poorer patterns.
One of the biggest problems facing small statured shooters is stock fit. Simply going with a chopped down stock for kids is a poor choice in many cases. If the pistol grip area is too wide or too long (made for adult hands) poor grip and poor shots will result. Look at purpose built youth stocks like thiose found on the Mossberg 505 or 510's. The pistol grip is abreviated so the finger can better reach the trigger. Shims come with the guns so you can grow the stock into the child before you need to buy a new stock with a longer LOP. They also have the forearm moved back so they smaller shooter doesn't have to stretch to reach it resulting in better balance.
If the stock and over all gun fitment is good, the small statured child can better tolerate the weight of the gun and the recoil. If the young lady in question has the upper body strengt to hold up a 510 20 gauge, she will more likely be able to shoot it well. If she can't tolerate the weight of the 20 the 410 can come into play.
A common complaint about the 410 for big guys is that they feel 'whippy'. For someone who can't hold up a heavy gun that gun will swing much more smoothly. Shame the BPS 410 isn't offered in youth models; they have screw in chokes.
Just the $.02 from a guy that is 5'4" and put up with poor stock fit for too long.
In a slightly small, but still full size gun, the .410 recoil makes it a good choice for a beginning shooter, BUT the small bore for a shotgun makes hits on moving targets (wingshooting the traditional shotgun forte) very difficult, and in this regard, a .410 is an expert's gun.
For a shotgun, I started out with a bolt action .410. After a day firing an entire box of shells and not hitting a single moving thing, I put the .410 back in my Grandfather's closet, and took his Ithaca 12ga sxs, and although I split my lip the first time I fired it at a bird, I did get hits, and didn't go back to the .410 for decades.
Also, I was 14 at the time, a bit older and bigger than your daughter.
If she is determined, she will overcome all obstacles. Just make sure she understands that one need not overcome them all at once.
Good luck
For a shotgun, I started out with a bolt action .410. After a day firing an entire box of shells and not hitting a single moving thing, I put the .410 back in my Grandfather's closet, and took his Ithaca 12ga sxs, and although I split my lip the first time I fired it at a bird, I did get hits, and didn't go back to the .410 for decades.
Also, I was 14 at the time, a bit older and bigger than your daughter.
If she is determined, she will overcome all obstacles. Just make sure she understands that one need not overcome them all at once.
Good luck
Thanks for all the advice guys. Keep in mind the gun I put in her hands is a youth model 870 wingmaster (marked lightweight) fixed choke, 20ga with 3/4oz 1200fps loads. I took a couple shots with it also and recoil (when properly shouldered) is similar to a 22mag. I think the reason the recoil bothered her is that the gun is still to long in LOP and front heavy. SA would be just as heavy as well as any doubles.
I am going to give up on the Rossi single shot 410 because this is the 2nd time I have heard that they kick rather hard.
I could cut back the 870 stock an inch but that wont cure the nose heavy issue and I hate to do anything to such a pretty stock. I dont see an option that will fix this at this point other than letting her continue with the rimfire (AR) at the range until she grows a bit more. Its also Softball season so she should be strengthening up a bit and she doesnt have much time to shoot with me anyway.
I am going to give up on the Rossi single shot 410 because this is the 2nd time I have heard that they kick rather hard.
I could cut back the 870 stock an inch but that wont cure the nose heavy issue and I hate to do anything to such a pretty stock. I dont see an option that will fix this at this point other than letting her continue with the rimfire (AR) at the range until she grows a bit more. Its also Softball season so she should be strengthening up a bit and she doesnt have much time to shoot with me anyway.
Boogieman, simply go on Ebay and Gunbroker and start watching for another stock for that shotgun. They come available frequently and aren't terribly expensive. Find a cheap youth stock that you can further cut off and add a nice soft recoil pad. If you have even minimal woodworking skills, you can do an acceptable job in an afternoon in the garage. Then, you'll have the original stock for when she grows a bit.
If I recall, there is a frame difference between 870's. I seem to recall the 12ga frame being bigger than the 20ga frame. I also vaguely recall someone mentioning that the 12ga lightweight version used the same frame as the 20ga. If that is indeed the case, you'll need to buy a 20ga frame at least. I don't know if there were frame design changes during the 870 production lifetime that made stocks unique for a certain year.