You're not my Lawyer but....

[dogtown tom]

MLeake Now, here is a thought...

If you sell your car, but don't verify the transfer of title, you can potentially be held financially liable for any accident that vehicle has with its new owner, as officially you are still the owner.

Seems like a firearm bill of sale might not be such a bad idea.

Since when do firearms have a title on file with the state?

Apples and oranges.

 

[MLeake]

dogtown tom... not really.

Assuming you were the first owner of the NIB gun, the ATF knows what dealer received the gun. If it was within the record-keeping requirement period that dealer probably has your purchase info.

And, of course, there are those people who live in states that require registration; or purchase permits that require make and serial number; or even FOIDs or range permits that require make(s) and serial number(s).

If you are a second-hand owner in a non-registration state, then the analogy is less applicable.

 

[Frank Ettin]

What a supremely silly comment.

[1] Any time one makes any kind of bargained for exchange with another person, it is, in the broadest sense "business."

[2] This also applies to transactions having nothing to do with guns.

What a supremely stupid answer.

Do you spend your whole life, every waking hour in "business"?

Sounds like a painful life.

Do you save every prescript from every dailt transaction?
It might be time to get a life.

Of course I don't. But on the other hand business (the legal side at least) has been my business and why I don't have to work for a living anymore. Nothing terribly painful about that.

And no, one would have no good reason to document every transaction. It depends on the nature of the transaction, the type of item and the amount of money involved. So when I buy a couple of folding chairs for $5 a piece at a neighborhood lawn sale, there's no reason to bother. But when I buy a watch for $10,000, you can be sure that I not only document that transaction but have also done a good deal of research on the seller and the provenance of the watch.

Also, during the course of my career I've seen plenty of examples of people caught up in awful, and ultimately very expensive, situations because they didn't give some activity the respect it deserved and went about things in a lackadaisical, offhand way. When dealing with things that cost a meaningful amount of money or that are often stolen or counterfeit, a little front-end rigor can avoid a great deal of possible back-end trouble.

 

[shortwave]

Good 'business practices' are taught and learned by some.

Others pay cash to attorney's when they step in that pile of pooh they didn't see coming. Then they want to sit back and scream about what that 'no-good, shyster att'y costs them and how they hate att'ys....till the next time they need one cause they didn't learn anything the first time.

 

[medalguy]

Maybe I'm missing something here, if so please enlighten me.

I believe TXAZ asked what happens if he buys a gun from someone and there's no paperwork. OK I'm with him so far. Then he says a few years later the police come to him and start asking questions. This is where I lose the conversation.

If there's no paperwork in the first place, how would anyone, let alone the police, know who bought the gun, or who possessed it several years later?

To move to the second question, if I sold a gun and it were used in a crime later, would the police not be asking me about the gun AND where I was at the time of the commission of any related criminal activity? Would they not take into account who I was, my own background, and the lack of any possible connection to the crime or the individuals involved? Or have we been watching too mucn CSI where they figure out the neighbor of the gardener's girlfriend really committed the crime and tell all the details before even arresting the evil doer?

Just sayin'.....

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Would they not take into account who I was, my own background, and the lack of any possible connection to the crime...

Why would the police know who you were or your background? You know you're a good guy, and your friends know you're a good guy. But to a whole world of strangers out there, including the police, you're just another stranger about whom they really know nothing.

 

[wayneinFL]

Mike38 Let’s say a guy comes to you for a face to face sale of a handgun that you have advertised, you bought it a couple years before, new from a FFL dealer. You show him the handgun in the opened case, he says I’ll take it, without even picking it up. Gives you cash, no receipt, no record of sale. He then takes it home, inside the case, puts on gloves, shoots his wife, drops the handgun next to her and leaves. Who do you suppose the police are going to question? Your finger prints are all over the handgun, and only your finger prints.

Far fetched story? I’m sure it’s happened.

First, I can't imagine selling a gun to someone who won't even pick it up and look at it. That's just weird. If I get a funny feeling, the sale's off. Second, the first suspect is always the husband. Especially if he left town. Third, where's the motive? Fourth, they can question if they want, I don't have to answer a darned thing.

 

[Justice06RR]

Why would the police know who you were or your background? You know you're a good guy, and your friends know you're a good guy. But to a whole world of strangers out there, including the police, you're just another stranger about whom they really know nothing.

I think what he was saying is maybe if you were out of the country when the crime happend, or you have a valid alibi when the crime happend, etc. Lets say your background is you travel for work, or maybe the crime happend in CA and you were in FL the whole time. Doesn't matter if you had a receipt for a gun you sold. Sure the cops may ask you to investigate but the facts should clear you (if indeed you didn't commit the crime).

I'm not against using Bill of Sale for firearms transactions. Do it for your own purposes, but many states don't even require firearm registration so a gun purchased privately may not really be tracked to you. For all you know the gun has passed multiple owners without any record of transaction...

 

[raftman]

If you sell your car, but don't verify the transfer of title, you can potentially be held financially liable for any accident that vehicle has with its new owner, as officially you are still the owner.

Seems like a firearm bill of sale might not be such a bad idea.

Since when do firearms have a title on file with the state?

Apples and oranges.

dogtown tom... not really.

Assuming you were the first owner of the NIB gun, the ATF knows what dealer received the gun. If it was within the record-keeping requirement period that dealer probably has your purchase info.

And, of course, there are those people who live in states that require registration; or purchase permits that require make and serial number; or even FOIDs or range permits that require make(s) and serial number(s).

If you are a second-hand owner in a non-registration state, then the analogy is less applicable.

In states without a registration, even if you did purchase the gun from an FFL with all the appropriate paperwork and background check, this is still not considered registration that binds the gun to you and requires some kind of documentation if the possession of the firearm is transferred to someone else. As a result you can't be held accountable for what the firearm is used for however many owners down the line unless perhaps you knowingly sold the gun to someone who cannot legally take ownership of it.

If you are in a state that does require registration, FOID, etc then it is likely very much illegal to sell/trade/give the gun to someone without an official record of the transfer anyways; legally speaking you do not have a choice in the matter. So regardless of whether you're in a state the requires registration or not, an informal bill of sale is pretty immaterial.

 

[ltc444]

Given my experience over the last two years, I think many of you have to much faith in the police and legal system.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

My faith is mostly in the immeasurably small odds.

I stand a better chance of being abducted by aliens than having some hypothetical gun I might hypothetically sell being used in a hypothetical crime that magically gets traced to me and for which I have no hypothetical alibi or witnesses but for which the hypothetical receipt that I kept and hypothetically managed to not lose will be a magical talisman turning the cops in a new direction.

 

[Mr. James]

peetzakilla,

For the win. The entire question is absurd. If folks want to stare at the ceiling at night worrying about acts committed eleven years down the road, by people you have not yet, or will never, meet, feel free. Or, if you want to get bills of sale that have little evidentiary value (since there are small odds of establishing their provenance), feel free. Personally, I have the great fortune to live in a free state, and I don't give a damn. If the seller wants my ID and a signed bill of sale? Fine. If he doesn't? Fine. If I think the seller is a greasy bastard selling a stolen firearm? I'm outtta there. He has the same option if he thinks I'm a greasy bastard.

In my many face-to-face transactions, so many of which were arranged through this very board, I've never had the slightest hiccup. And, oddly enough, no one has dropped one of my pistols beside his dead wife.

Sheesh. Can we get real here?

 

[MLeake]

Mr. James, on the one hand, odds are low.

On the other hand, when it comes to immediately recognizing "greasy bastards," you do realize that Ted Bundy got to many of his victims by charming them, right? Med student, well-spoken, intelligent, physically attractive, and well-dressed...

And he choked women, or beat them to death with blunt objects.

Or the Craigslist killer that murdered the masseuse - another med student, from a good family, engaged to a nice fiance.

Not all greasy bastards are readily apparent.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....when it comes to immediately recognizing "greasy bastards," you do realize that Ted Bundy got to many of his victims by charming them, right? Med student, well-spoken, intelligent, physically attractive, and well-dressed...

And he choked women, or beat them to death with blunt objects.

Or the Craigslist killer that murdered the masseuse - another med student, from a good family, engaged to a nice fiance.

Not all greasy bastards are readily apparent.

And successful greasy bastards are indeed not apparent. That's why they can get away with things for so long. Bernie Madoff is another example. A greasy bastard who looks like one isn't going to get very far as one.

Anyway, if one gets in the habit of following good business practices and being disciplined in financial dealings, it's no more of a burden than brushing your teeth.