You're not my Lawyer but....

T

TXAZ

New member
Following up on the "CYA when you buy / sell a firearm form" thread, Oh great brilliant TFL legal minds:

Some here are not paper trail kind of guys / girls. The question to you is so what if you don't have a receipt when you buy a weapon (legally) with good intent but without a detailed (or any) receipt?

CLARIFICATION
I buy a gun from a willing private seller, and I am not legally prohibited from doing so.
So what if I don't get a receipt (or more likely can't find it after x years).
Have I committed a crime?
Do I really care?
If the police call a few years later and have questions, so what?
(not trying to be glib, just pushing the point from the previous thread, so what if there isn't a receipt or recollection of the seller's details)
 
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Do you have any emails or such? Otherwise, if the weapon isn't reported stolen, how does anyone prove it's not yours?
 
The law says you have to be proven guilty, not you must prove you are innocent. If you have a firearm and it is in your possession, and you say it is yours, and it has not been reported stolen...what is the deal? Its yours, or it must be proven otherwise in court. It would not be your problem to prove it was yours, it would be your accusers problem to prove it was not yours.

There is only one problem, and that is the LE list of stolen firearms is not generally available to the general public. It would be much better if it was. I prefer to know the whole history of any C&R weapon I might purchase, I mean right back to the original purchaser not just the last FFL transaction...I have several weapons that I received as gifts/purchased before there were any FFLs. (that is Pre 1968)
 
I don't understand what your asking?

Why do I need a receipt? Is the seller giving me a 90 day warranty or something?
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LOL.

OP, please clarify your question. As discussed in the other thread, my opinion is that you don't need a receipt to buy/sell if its not required in your state. If it wasn't in my possession during the crime, then it doesn't matter if I have a receipt or not.
 
Clarification

Yes Justice06rr, you are making my point.
I buy a gun from a willing private seller, and I am not legally prohibited from doing so.
So what if I don't get a receipt (or more likely can't find it after x years).
Have I committed a crime?
Do I really care?
If the police call a few years later and have questions, so what?
(not trying to be glib, just pushing the point from the previous thread, so what if there isn't a receipt or recollection of the seller's details)
 
Let’s say a guy comes to you for a face to face sale of a handgun that you have advertised, you bought it a couple years before, new from a FFL dealer. You show him the handgun in the opened case, he says I’ll take it, without even picking it up. Gives you cash, no receipt, no record of sale. He then takes it home, inside the case, puts on gloves, shoots his wife, drops the handgun next to her and leaves. Who do you suppose the police are going to question? Your finger prints are all over the handgun, and only your finger prints.

Far fetched story? I’m sure it’s happened.
 
Mike38 said:
Let’s say a guy comes to you for a face to face sale of a handgun that you have advertised, you bought it a couple years before, new from a FFL dealer. You show him the handgun in the opened case, he says I’ll take it, without even picking it up. Gives you cash, no receipt, no record of sale. He then takes it home, inside the case, puts on gloves, shoots his wife, drops the handgun next to her and leaves. Who do you suppose the police are going to question? Your finger prints are all over the handgun, and only your finger prints.

Far fetched story? I’m sure it’s happened.
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Totally impossible in NY, since transferring a handgun requires it be listed on his permit before he takes possession.
Even if it were possible, you have the ad you placed and a record of correspondence with the guy (phone records or email). Additionally, I would have the guys name. Its not like I think it's a "No questions asked" proposition. I'll at least get a name. I also have the fact that we AT LEAST made the sale in a public place (no need for a stranger in my home) and more likely in my pizza shop, which is equipped with 8 full-color video and audio cameras. That combined with the murder of a woman you've never met, in her own home, with no forced entry or struggle...

Far-fetched isn't even the right adjective.

On the other hand, this is America. Do as you please. Just like some people carry a primary handgun, 2 reloads, a primary BUG, 2 reloads for that, a BUBUG and 2 reloads for that, because "it might happen" doesn't mean it ever will happen and doesn't mean they're going to convince me to do it.

Same thing with all the paperwork, paper trails, notarized statements and such. This is America. If it makes you feel better, have at it. However, being free not to do it makes me happy and you'll have to sell and buy from someone else, because I WON'T do it.
 
PK, I agree it's far-fetched.

However, as far as NY goes, I think your state is in the minority with the pistol permit / FOID thing. That is for die-hard blue states, and North Carolina, IIRC.
 
TXAZ said:
...I buy a gun from a willing private seller, and I am not legally prohibited from doing so.
So what if I don't get a receipt (or more likely can't find it after x years).
Have I committed a crime?
Do I really care?
If the police call a few years later and have questions, so what?...
Click to expand...
Pretty much depends on what kind of questions they're asking. For example, if it turns out that your gun matches one reported stolen several years ago, you'll have some explaining to do. Your explanation will go a lot better if you have some sort of documentation for the transaction in which you purchased the gun.

It's generally a good business practice to document transactions, especially when dealing with items that are expensive or often stolen. Chances are that even if you don't, nothing will happen.

At the same time, many of my colleagues at the Bar have made a bunch of money sorting out problems for people who could easily have avoid those problems with a little care and attention to detail.

I personally like documentation. If you don't care for it, that's your choice. It won't be my problem.
 
I keep a log of what I've purchased. I have receipts for maybe 10% of the guns I've purchased.... If I have a receipt, I stuff it in the box (if it had one) and toss it in the attic. I don't lose any sleep over not having receipts at all.

The only time I'd care about receipts is if it adds anything to the provenance of a particular gun.
 
Let’s say a guy comes to you for a face to face sale of a handgun that you have advertised, you bought it a couple years before, new from a FFL dealer. You show him the handgun in the opened case, he says I’ll take it, without even picking it up. Gives you cash, no receipt, no record of sale. He then takes it home, inside the case, puts on gloves, shoots his wife, drops the handgun next to her and leaves. Who do you suppose the police are going to question? Your finger prints are all over the handgun, and only your finger prints.
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They will question the husband - not some guy who has no connection with the person who was shot!

I have sold several guns face to face with nothing more than looking at their licenses to make sure they were legal age and residents of my state. I did nothing illegal, kept no records of the transaction and I haven't lost one night's sleep over it. I do note in my log when I sold the gun - but that's all.
 
Mike38 Let’s say a guy comes to you for a face to face sale of a handgun that you have advertised, you bought it a couple years before, new from a FFL dealer. You show him the handgun in the opened case, he says I’ll take it, without even picking it up. Gives you cash, no receipt, no record of sale. He then takes it home, inside the case, puts on gloves, shoots his wife, drops the handgun next to her and leaves. Who do you suppose the police are going to question? Your finger prints are all over the handgun, and only your finger prints.

Far fetched story? I’m sure it’s happened.
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Sure its happened.......Murder She Wrote, CSI, Law & Order, Perry Mason, Starsky & Hutch all have those episodes.

Real life is another matter.:rolleyes:

You think having a receipt will somehow cause those fingerprints to disappear? Please.
 
...many of my colleagues at the bar have made a bunch of money sorting out problems for people who could have easily avoided those problems with a little attention to detail.
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^^^This also^^^

Aaaagh hell fiddle, just repost the whole statement. :D
 
If I have a gun bought with a form 4473 than I would possibly worry...

But the guns I buy are free of the papertrail... coming and going...;)

But I don't really own guns... I am really a 10 year old North Korean boy who dreams of a day when my fellow countrymen can have freedom like you silly amalikans...

Brent
 
brickeyee said:
It's generally a good business practice to document transactions...
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So you are in business without an FFL?
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What a supremely silly comment.

[1] Any time one makes any kind of bargained for exchange with another person, it is, in the broadest sense "business."

[2] This also applies to transactions having nothing to do with guns.
 
What a supremely silly comment.

[1] Any time one makes any kind of bargained for exchange with another person, it is, in the broadest sense "business."

[2] This also applies to transactions having nothing to do with guns.
Click to expand...

What a supremely stupid answer.

Do you spend your whole life, every waking hour in "business"?

Sounds like a painful life.

Do you save every prescript from every dailt transaction?
It might be time to get a life.
 
Now, here is a thought...

If you sell your car, but don't verify the transfer of title, you can potentially be held financially liable for any accident that vehicle has with its new owner, as officially you are still the owner.

Seems like a firearm bill of sale might not be such a bad idea.
 
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