Your opinion on these for SD/HD...

6

6.8mmSPC_Fan

Inactive
I've been trying to maximize the capabilities of my shotgun, for SD/HD purposes... Where I live, armed home invasions are on the rise, and perps are less likely to just leave...

I have a Remington 870, Desert Recon II, w/Trijicon TX30, and Knoxx-Stox affixed. For ammo, I've tentatively chosen a mix that may include the following:

Winchester's Supreme Elite PDX1 12ga ammo:

http://www.winchester.com/Products/s...s/S12PDX1.aspx

and

PolyWad's Quik-Shok's 12ga ammo:

http://www.polywad.com/quikshok.html

I'd appreciate your insight. Thanks in advance.

6.8mmSPC_Fan, out...
 
You may be over-thinking here...at home defense distance(ie; across the living room) I doubt a burglar will be able to tell the difference between Winchester AA trap loads you bought at WalMart and the fanciest whiz-bang home-defense rounds on the market.
As a disclaimer, I have neither shot anyone with a shotgun nor been shot with a shotgun...the above is merely my opinion, since you asked for it.
 
At living room distances, pretty much all shotgun rounds will either still be in the wad, or barely starting to shed the wad...

Not a whole lot of difference as SSgt noted above.

To decide what will be best for your particular home, break out a tape measure and determine the distances that you would typically be forced to shoot. (Ex: Bedroom into hallway entry, across the living room, etc) Then go out to the range, measure off these distances, and pattern your gun/loads at those distances.

Take a wide variety of ammo and a lot of choke tubes and figure out which one will perform the best for your particular situation. Just don't expect them to print a 18" pattern at 20ft....
 
Even #4 buckshot is marginal and will fail FBI testing criteria. The other issue is over penetration so some recommend "bird shot" which will not over penetrate anything. If you live in close quarters to others make sure you have predetermined lines of fire. OO buck is the minimum I would use and your firearm choice seems sound.
 
Hard 2 Go Wrong

Anything that's double 00 buck will ruin anyone's day. Low brass shells also

help take the kick out of follow up shots on shotguns. If I am not mistaken

your main concern is home defense, so any quality Double 00 buck

shot(remington, black hills, federal) will knock folks

down {close range out to 15 meters} (main concern cause you want threat

stoppage), tear tissue and damage organs. Shotguns can leave the image of

bloody worm holes in a chest, and can blow man's head practically clean

off. So, as long as you are using quality ammo in your weapon. It will get

the job done.
 
That Winchester PDX1-12 is more a load for taking it outside than for any in-the-home scenario that I can think of.

DC
 
That Quik-Shok slug looks like a good idea, but it's a full-power 1500FPS load producing punishing recoil making for slow follow-up shots in the event of a miss. If they were available in low recoil i'd consider getting them. Considering that they're twice the price as conventional slugs and buckshot, it's just not worth it..


Why anyone would use anything except buckshot and slugs from their shotgun in a defensive scenario is amusing to me.. Guys suggesting to use birdshot, flechettes, dragon's breath, bolo rounds, etc, don't have a clue! None of that overpriced mall-ninja rubbish offers any advantage over slugs or buckshot, and costs twice the price

Buckshot's been taking bad guys down since the days of the old west. I guess it's just not tacti-kewl enough to use in their laser-equipped, dot sighted, high-capacity, wing-ding ultra-magnum "shotty". Winchester is capitalizing on this by introducing their PDX lineup. No thanks, i'll stick with reduced recoil 00 buck


...And don't mix different shotshells in the magazine - that's also mall-ninja
 
Pattern your shotgun with either 00 or 000 at the longest distance you would most likely take a shot at for H.D.

Your shotgun may pattern one of those loads better than the other at said distance. ( longest H.D. distance )
 
There's NO ineffective 12 gauge slugs. That one you picked, in a 7.5 lb shotgun, generates recoil past that of a 375 H&H. Something with less of a recovery time and lower unit price is a better choice.

Same with buck. 00 is close to optimum, and testing a few loads will give you a spectrum of performance to choose from.

Some folks like spread,some like tight clusters they can place surgically in the CNS. I'm in the second camp. Try a few brands and pick whatever gives a 10-15 inch spread or less at the longest distance possible in your domicile.

Then, whatever you choose, PRACTICE with your shotgun until you know it like your tongue knows your teeth. That goes for any other responsible adult who may need to defend themselves and you with it.

HTH....
 
"Then, whatever you choose, PRACTICE with your shotgun until you know it like your tongue knows your teeth. "

Dave, I've read every published word I think you've ever said out of great respect. But THAT is the Coolest thing ever to leave your face, and now it's mine. I can't wait to use it...all the time, whether it's appropriate or not. :) Thanks very much...Zebulon
 
12-gauge PDX1 puts a bunch of energy into a target with deep slug penetration.
The pattern on paper is a rough triangle with the slug striking approximately in the center.
Spread through one recent test gun was:

7 Yds 5 11/16 Inches
15 Yds 10 1/8 Inches
25 Yds 17 1/4 Inches

Most efficient use would be with rifle or optic sights of some sort regulated to the slug's POI.
Effective range on a human-sized torso in a defensive situation is probably limited to about 25 yards (depending on the individual shotgun & choke) in keeping all three pellets "inside the lines" & avoiding injury to bystanders in the vicinity of the target. Might be able to extend to 30 yards.
Denis
 
The PDX1 by Winchester is a great round, I do have a experience with this round and have never been disapointed. Although I have not used it against a perp, But with this round the perp is going down for the count guranteed.
 
Feel free,Zeb, but if you get paid for saying it I want a cut.

As for the buck and ball loads, I see them as neither fish nor fowl. IMO, sticking with either a proven load of 00 OR a decent slug will serve better. Learning Select Slug and Crisis Reloading drills is mandatory.
 
That Quik-Shok slug looks like a good idea, but it's a full-power 1500FPS load producing punishing recoil making for slow follow-up shots in the event of a miss. If they were available in low recoil i'd consider getting them. Considering that they're twice the price as conventional slugs and buckshot, it's just not worth it..


Why anyone would use anything except buckshot and slugs from their shotgun in a defensive scenario is amusing to me.. Guys suggesting to use birdshot, flechettes, dragon's breath, bolo rounds, etc, don't have a clue! None of that overpriced mall-ninja rubbish offers any advantage over slugs or buckshot, and costs twice the price

Buckshot's been taking bad guys down since the days of the old west. I guess it's just not tacti-kewl enough to use in their laser-equipped, dot sighted, high-capacity, wing-ding ultra-magnum "shotty". Winchester is capitalizing on this by introducing their PDX lineup. No thanks, i'll stick with reduced recoil 00 buck
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In a home defense situation, birdshot has a very real place. I don't care how well you do at the range shooting at paper, or at Blackhawk going thorugh some tactical house, the real "Oh Crap" feeling cannot be replicated. You miss with that buckshot in a house, and those pellets are going ro go through a wall, maybe into your child's room. At HD distances, birdshot is gonna end the fight, and a miss isn't going to blow through your son's bedroom door.
 
Birdshot has no use in a defensive scenario.
Suggesting others to do so is also irresponsible in my opinion. Here's why:

If the situation arises that you need to discharge your shotgun inside of your home, would you still risk taking the shot if you knew there was a family member in the line of fire behind the bad guy? Any round capable of adequately penetrating a bad guy will also be able to penetrate common building materials in the event of a miss.

Birdshot simply does not have the sectional density and momentum for adequate penetration. A bad guy with superficial birdshot wounds will still take a minute or so to lose consciousness from blood loss. Buckshot has the ability to penetrate into the CNS▬birdshot may or may not.. That's a gamble i'm not willing to bet my life on. The smallest HD buckshot size i personally recommend using is number 4 buckshot.

Not every bad guy will quake in his boots at the sound of hearing you rack the slide of your pump-shotgun, or be immediately incapacitated by a light trap load of 7-1/2 birdshot. That's all Hollywood rubbish. Too many variables to factor in for home-defense scenarios, that's why we practice and prepare for the worst case scenario, NOT under ideal conditions. Drugs, climate, distance, etc..

It's true that many bad guys/offenders that were shot in a non-vital, non-life-threatening body part halted their assault due to psychological reasons, not from loss of blood or CNS hit. That's what it seems TO ME is the main reason that those who use birdshot and less-lethal ammo for SD appear to rely on.
 
Colt, I disagree. Would I risk a shot if there was a family member behind him? Nope, but how would I know that if he's in my house in the middle of the night? And since I would be shaking like a leaf, I'm not convinced that my aim would be as good as it is on the range. It's a trade off. The odds of you using that weapon in a real HD situation are extremely low. 99.9% of gun owners will never fire their shot in a real situation (not counting soldiers or cops). I've seen gunshot victims with birdshot wounds. It is frigging nasty. The victims were all DOA. You could always compromise and go with a heavier birdshot. Still better than buck. But we all have our opinions.
 
At HD distances,
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How in the world would anyone know what that is? If someone is 75 yards away and putting slugs through my windows, do you think that has now become an "HD distance"? I surely do.

The idea that anyone knows the maximum distance at which they may have to use their weapon is delusion of the highest order.

Anyone that has ever been in a real fight (I haven't, thank God, been in a gunfight, but have been involved in my share of bare handed brawls) knows that you simply do not know what may happen. You have to prepare for all possibilities, even those that may seem unlikely to you.

Therefore, bird shot is not a viable choice for me, unless I am on the dove field. Your choice is your choice, beat them with your wife's purse if you like. Me I am using 00 buckshot with some slugs on hand for select fire if needed.
 
How in the world would anyone know what that is? If someone is 75 yards away and putting slugs through my windows, do you think that has now become an "HD distance"? I surely do.

The idea that anyone knows the maximum distance at which they may have to use their weapon is delusion of the highest order.

Anyone that has ever been in a real fight (I haven't, thank God, been in a gunfight, but have been involved in my share of bare handed brawls) knows that you simply do not know what may happen. You have to prepare for all possibilities, even those that may seem unlikely to you.

Therefore, bird shot is not a viable choice for me, unless I am on the dove field. Your choice is your choice, beat them with your wife's purse if you like. Me I am using 00 buckshot with some slugs on hand for select fire if needed.
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You're in fantasyland. Come back to earth and we'll talk. who are you that someone might be firing slugs into your house from 75 yards and you will have to return fire? Measure the longest distance from any point in your house to another UNOBSTRUCTED, and tell me how far it is. Unless you're very wealthy, it's probably less than 10 yards. From the top of my staircase to my front door is about 6 yards (bi-level house). If you have to fire on someone 75 yards away, a shotgun isn't gonna do it. Sure, you can make the shot if you have the time to line up a shot, and you're super calm, but in a real shooting (and why even bring up a fistfight?) you're not shooting at 75 yards, and if you do, be prepared to lose your house defending your actions.
 
You're in fantasyland. Come back to earth and we'll talk. who are you that someone might be firing slugs into your house from 75 yards and you will have to return fire? Measure the longest distance from any point in your house to another UNOBSTRUCTED, and tell me how far it is. Unless you're very wealthy, it's probably less than 10 yards. From the top of my staircase to my front door is about 6 yards (bi-level house). If you have to fire on someone 75 yards away, a shotgun isn't gonna do it. Sure, you can make the shot if you have the time to line up a shot, and you're super calm, but in a real shooting (and why even bring up a fistfight?) you're not shooting at 75 yards, and if you do, be prepared to lose your house defending your actions.
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Very well put, Homerboy.
 
A few things the bird shot for defense crowd all seems to have in common; they most likely have never patterned bird shot @ the distances they speak of. Also they have obviously never tested for penetration. Last, when you present them with test evidence, they ignore it and stick to the myths they believe in.

You know come to think of it, most bird shot for defense advocates also tend to believe that the racking noise of the shotgun will scare someone away. :rolleyes:
 
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