You Wear the Badge

Rob-
Uh,oh. May be our first public disagreement coming. ;) When you speak of the LEAA's bill, I believe you're referring to the one that would allow police officers to carry in any state.

If my assumption is correct, I have to disagree with your position. The proposed law only increases the gulf between "police rights" and "everyone elses rights", and therefore, the gulf between police and other citizens. In also increases the trend toward federalization of the police.

I'd much prefer the LEAA get behind a National CCW Reciprocity Law that allows all citizens, uniformed and non-uniformed, to protect themselves and their families when abroad. This concept of priority for one group, on the promise of support for the next has generally been a historical failure. The loosers are, inevitably, the public.

By lobbying for this pet law, LEAA risks developing a reputation no better than the Teacher's Lobby.... ie: Grab what you can before it's all gone.
Rich
 
Rich; I agree with you. What this country doesnt need is a law-any law-that gives any group of citizens rights which all do not enjoy.
Heres something to think about. Does anybody here oppose no-knock dynamic entry at the correct address of known criminals? Or are you only objecting to those cases of mistaken address or mistaken identity or insufficent cause for a warrant cases where innocents are killed or otherwise mistreated?


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Better days to be,

Ed
 
No doubt in my mind, at least, that much abuse is at the Federal Police level and from the many armed alphabet agencies. Some of this arogance has filtered down to state or local agencies who get the dough from the Federales. Klinton has directed local, police to set up roadblocks around the country to enforce seat belt laws and save the children. Search and seizure results from these roadblocks. Sure, most police like my cousin in southwest Virginia are decent and try to do a good job. But Federal pressure is increasing all the time on local police who being militarized in many places by Federales. I am in favor of a Constitutional Convention to disband this Federal System as it is presently structured.
 
On the surface, Rich, you are correct, but let me give you the background:

7 years ago: LEAA drafts original version of HR 218, which would grant national CCW to ALL off duty active or retired LEOs.

This in itself is a huge thing, and is not at all designed to cater to LEOs. The bill would mandate that:

1. Cops get to carry off duty. Did you know that technically many police officers are not supposed to carry weapons off duty or out of uniform? Its True. The idea is that not even cops are trustworthy enough to have guns. Now, in a place like DC or NJ were this policy exists how can any normal citizen think they have a snowballs chance in hell of getting a permit? They can't. The first thing that the proponents tell the judge/legislators is that not even off duty cops have guns, why should Mr. Smith ??
So, this law would instantly put hundreds of thousands of armed people on the street, with the sanction of the gov't. In theory, there would be no "Ok Corral" type scenarios, it would be proven that the guns carried stopped crime.. thus, making it easier for regular citizens to get CCW permits and defeating many of the traditional arguments against CCW.

2. The kicker in the Bill is that it includes retired officers. Retired officers have NO continuing training, NO LE status and NO special police powers. They would be the same as a trained NON-LE citizen. This would set an enourmous precedent for civilian CCW.

Now, you can sit back and say "BS!" the LEAA will drop it after cops get the privelege and it'll be all over!
BUT:
Fact One: LEAA intends to work on behalf of national CCW for everyone. the leadership of the LEAA firmly believe that armed citizens prevent crimes, and has distributed literature to that effect since day one.
Fact Two: a significant percentage of the LEAA's membership is non-LE, so there would be a driving force to keep the LEAA focused on the goal.

If you are still a non-believer, let's fast forward a bit from the original Bill:

About 6 months ago HR 218 is amended to become NATIONAL RECIPROCITY for all LEOs and CCW permit holders.
At this point, HCI and other groups come out strongly against the bill. Stating that they thought active/retired LE were fine, but they would fight national CCW for everyone.

2 Months Ago: With all the hub-bub after Columbine, the house and the senate are put under pressure to pass "Juvenile Justice Bills". These bills would include social issues and new gun laws. Rep. Cunningham (sponsor of 218) sees an opportunity to slip the original version of 218 into HR 2122 as an amendment, knowing that if 2122 passes, the president would have to sign it.
He does, and the Cunningham amendment passes the house 372 to 54. Part of that vote was because the LEAA pressured Sarah Brady into supporting the amendment. They reminded her of her words about the change in 218, and she came out with HCI publicly supporting the amendment including the retired officers. Unfortunately, HR 2122 did not pass. 2122 also contained some very important language that would have diluted the SEnate version of the JJB... but that is another story that has been told in other threads...

Now, here we are, with the original 218 having passed with about 88% of the house supporting it. so Cunnigham is arranging a vote on original 218 later this year, in order to set the original precedent which should help prove the "more guns = less crime" theory and then lead to an eventual bill for national CCW reciprocity.

That is the plan. Rich, you know me....

The rest of you may not see it or believe it, that is your choice.. but trust me, the LEAA is not just for cops. Read the literature on the organization.

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-Essayons
 
Jeff, based upon our current system, you sound like a great LEO, and we are fortunate to have your service. Thank you.

You are clearly compassionate, but committed to enforcing the laws. IMHO, that is as it should be.

I remain frustrated with laws that hang over the heads of otherwise innocent people. From my perspective, drug laws have greatly damaged our country, and they have done so in excess of the damage from the drugs themselves. And, most firearms laws are also not only unconstitutional, but actually hurt many otherwiee innocent people. But, I recognize you cannot blatantly pick and choose which laws you will enforce. And, apparently my fellow citizens are quite comfortable locking up a large percentage of our population.

So, if I were king for a day, the only situation that should have involved any police influence would have been your first example. I believe that is why we used to call LEO's peace officers. And, our current fixation on controlling more and more behavior is probably why the term has become so much less common.

Thank you for your service to our country. And, for your courage and honesty in these discussions. We need as many men like you as we can find.

Regards from AZ
 
Rob-
It goes without saying that I trust your intentions. I'm just skeptical of LEAA's approach. Can you email or post a reference to their position on the failed HR 218?
Rich
 
I would like to say thanks to Jeff for what sounds like a job well done. In my own experience I have seen many good cops and a few jerks. And as with any profession the few bad ones give the rest a bad image. I'm sure that none of us on this board are the beer swilling inbred nuckledragging redneck hicks that HCI makes us out to be.
As for the federal agencies I think that it is the same thing, we have several examples of really stupid things that have happened over the last decade, however they are organizations like any other, made up of people. I have only known two federal agents personally, (FBI and DEA) and both have been some of the most honorable people that I have met.
I think that any organization will sway between good and bad depending on who makes up the ranks of that organization. If there were more ATF agents who actually liked firearms then there probably wouldn't be as many abuses of power. If more members of congress were there to do good as opposed to gain power and influence, then we wouldn't have half the problems we have now.
Maybe I am just being naive, but I believe that if we want more good people in positions of authority instead of punks with badges, then we should go gain some authority. We should get into those positions and do what we think is right. How nice would it be if some of our members here were law makers or judges or special agents. We believe that the media is biased, how nice would it be if some of us were in the media.
Maybe this is all just wishfull thinking, but 30 years ago, Clinton and his cronies were dope smoking hippies, but somehow they gained a whole bunch of authority. It would be really nice to see the pendulum swing the other way for once.
 
Jeff, I salute that you took the time to discuss your tactics and reasoning with us.
I have been praying for quite some time that more peace officers, and agents would really get down to the business of hashing this stuff out.
Ok, here's my opinions..

Case 1.
I think it was wrong to make a note of the man's gun ownership. I completely understand your desire to maintain the safetly of your fellow officers, however, it is that man's constitutional right to own those guns. I don't think anyone would bother to note that the man was excersising his 1st ammendment rights, so why the second? Also, I don't think making that note makes things safer for anyone. From what I've read, you will find guns in 40% of the homes in America. As a peace officer, I would imagine you have to assume that you stand a 4 in 10 chance of entering a dwelling with a firearm. Just because they are not in a display case doesn't mean they are not there, and there is no reason someone should be un-fairly marked because their guns are in plain view. Also, someone reading your note might have a higher anticipation of having an armed confrontation if they return to that house, which I think could actually create a situation that would not have otherwise existed. That's not fair to the private citizen, nor to your peers.
Remember Safety vs Liberty? Writing that note may or may not make other officer's safer, but guaranteed it erodes their Liberty to some extent.

Case 2.
I agree that this law is un-constitutional.
This puts you in a very difficult position as an American and a cop.
I think you did the best that you could in that situation, but if you believe in the constitution, you will value your status as an American more than your duty as a cop.
I know that sucks, and I feel your pain.
The best thing I could suggest is that you become active in trying to change that law starting from within your department and working out. That is activism, and It directly effects your job and your beliefs so I think it is worth the effort.

Case 3.
Knockless entrys are un-fair to both cops and citizens.
Look, you are innocent until proven guilty in this country and even though the man was suspected of dealing drugs, he's not guilty yet.
I know that sounds like BS, but look at this scenerio....
Let's say it's me. I don't deal, or take drugs, but somehow I end up being an innocent suspect (because my neighbor is pissed at me, or you recieve an annonomous tip).
So you knock at my front door and 3 guys break down my back door.
Well, that's a sad situation because I have one of those houses that is prepared for home invasion robbery.
It would be likely that several of the cops coming in would be...well...stopped cold.
It is also likely that I would be killed as well.
In a best case scenerio, everybody survives, but I get arrested for missing a few cops that obviously couldn't shoot straight either.
Even if I were a drug dealer, you are risking the lives of the neighbors and perhaps anyone who was visiting at the time.
What if my wife answers the door and I'm half asleep or visa versa?
All these lives at risk just to test out the effectiveness of the entry team.
Seems like a good way to ruin the lives of several innocent people.
I'm terrified of being put in this scenerio as I would NEVER intentionally shoot a cop.
Suprising the hell out of someone is just a bad idea. Better to surround the house and announce your intentions, or wait until the suspect is out of the house.
Unless it's a hostage situation...breaking down doors by suprise is just a bad idea.
I know that statistically these entries may prove to be successful, but the one that goes wrong is not worth all that we luck out on.
This is yet another topic I would suggest you become an activist on if you care.

Anyway...just my personal opinions, and again I thank you Jeff for having the wisdom and courage to bring it to an open forum.

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Same Shot, Different Day
 
Ivan, RR, Sameshot,
Have you ever contacted your city council, mayor, police board or other civilian oversight entity about your concerns? Just as the military is controlled by the civilian leadership of the nation, the police agencies are controlled by the civilian heads of the level of government they operate at.

No, the President of the United States doesn't order state and local police agencies to set these roadblocks up, he does it in a different way, he pays for them. Yes most of the additional officers you saw on the highways last weekend were paid for (the overtime) by the federal government. The transportation department in most cases provides that grant money. Personally, I'm surprised that these roadblocks have passed constitutional muster at the Supreme Court level. Now that you are armed with this information, why don't you write your representatives and ask that the Transportation Department not receive funding for these grants. I'm being serious here, we are the government. We have a very tough fight in this area, instead of HCI, we'll have to go up against MADD. And this will be tough, because unlike the firearms issue, where we can justify private firearms ownership, I don't think we can justify drunk driving.

I agree that we've traded away too much personal liberty to try to win the drug war. But once again, as with guns and drunk driving, the media/big brother government coalition plays too much on the emotions of the vast majority of voters instead of talking common sense solutions. I was stunned in the late '80s when the Bush administration floated some trial balloons about modifying the 4th ammendment in drug case and the polls showed support above 70% for it. Why do you think that was? It was because most of the public had a preconceived notion of what a drug dealer was, a profile so to speak. He was black or hispanic with lots of gold jewelry, flashy cars...you know Don Johnson and other TV cops chased him around everynight on TV. So they saw nothing wrong with that. They knew "they" didn't fit that profile so what did they have to fear from changing the Constitution?

Since they didn't know that by doing that, all they'd have to do was get into a disagreement with their neighbor, and have their neighbor call the police and say "Ivan, RR or Sameshot is selling drugs from their home, there are cars coming and going all hours of the day or night and they only stay a minute." Under some of the proposals I saw, that's about all it would have taken to get the "No Knock" warrant. Fortunately, we still have to investigate, buy from that location etc.

Now let me ask this. How many were so concerned about these issues before the current assault on our 2d Ammendment rights made us concerned we might be targets for a no knock because the neighbor boy saw our AR15 when he was visiting our son?

I don't believe in the forfieture laws either.

As for how I do my job I can only follow what my criminal law instructor (a former fed BTW, Secret Service) taught me. That is that there is discretion built into the law at every level and that everyone charged with enforcing it from meter maid to Supreme Court Justice should try to weigh the benefit to society against the loss of liberty to the violator. For example; A few years back, I was breaking in a new reserve officer (maybe this was more then a few, it was before formal FTO progams made it to the smaller agencies) and I stopped a car that had no tail lights. I approached the vehicle and asked the driver for her license and proof of insurance (the mandatory insurance law was new then in my state). The driver was a woman in her early 20's, she was wearing a fast food outlet uniform and had 2 small children with her. The older car was registered only in her name and there was no wedding ring. She produced her drivers license and was looking through her glovebox and purse for the insurance card. I told her that I stopped her because she had no tail lights and having noticed her dash lights were out told her it probably was a blown fuse. I then went back to the squad to write a warning and run her DL. Everything came back clear and I gave her the warning ticket and followed her to the gas station where the fuse was changed. She never did produce the insurance card. After clearing from the stop, the new reserve officer (who was eager to make an arrest as most new officers are) reminded me that she never did show proof of insurance. I told him that I knew that, but decided not to pursue the issue. I said I thought she was a struggling single mother by all appearances and asked him how the insurance law was serving society in her case. She was obviously struggling to make ends meet and how was having her car towed and her plates suspended and a $750.00 fine going to serve society. If all that happened, she'd probably lose her job, and her and the kids would be on welfare, so I used discretion to overlook the insurance violation. Again others may see that as the wrong call to have made, but those were my reasons.

I'll be happy to talk about these issues at any time. I think you guys were being too hard on Benton, I took his posts as being somewhat tongue in cheek with the black helicopter comments etc. Perhaps he was joking about those things the way policemen and soldiers often tease each other. If that was the case rather then be offended you guys should be comforted in the fact he feels at home enough in this forum to joke around like that. I don't know Benton, that's just how I read his posts in the other thread.
Jeff
 
Rich,

First off, HR 218 hawsn't failed. It hasn't even been voted on yet. We are hoping for a vote on the original version within the next couple months.

In regards to the LEAA's position on National Civilian CCW, they have a handout that they use which states, without question or ambiguity, their position on right to carry. If you haven't seen it, let me know, I'll fax it to you.
In addition, I have a collection of photocopies of articles that mention The LEAA over the past couple years, and 90%+ of the articles are in regard to the LEAA's support of CCW on one level or another.

Specifically on 218, if www.leaa.org doesn't have the information you are looking for, I would encourage you to write to them and ask for their position.

I believe there was an article in the LEAA's magazine addressing the issue, also. Hoepfully, you are already a member and receiving the magazine.
 
Jeff wrote: "I agree that we've traded away too much personal liberty to try to win the drug war."

The "war" against drunk driving-roadblocks and asset forfeitures. The "war" against non-payors of child support-national database on every working American with employers required to provide information on every single employee whether or not they pay child support. The "war" against violence-gun laws, national database, and eventual prohibition of gun ownership. The "war" against domestic violence-more gun laws.

Can the remainder of our personal liberties survive any more "wars." Once we win the "wars" will our personal liberties be restored?
 
Jeff,
I was under the impression that dynamic entrys were at the discresion of the department?
Indeed, I should write my reps regarding that, but I felt that you, by being internally involved might have more weight on the issue than my letter which will sit on a stack.
I do by the way write tons of letters on all sorts of constitutional issues, but constitutional or not, the main problem with dynamic entrys is safety to inocent people.
As I said in my post, even if I WERE a drug dealer, and you Knew it because you'd just witnessed a buy from my house, then the risk to your officers and potentially the neighbors/visitors/mother is not worth it in my opinion.
Even if that guy's mother knew (and that's debatable) that her son was selling drugs, then would it be appropriate to risk her life to ensure that the drugs don't get flushed?
If you can say yes to that, then ok, but if not, then you must admit that this is exactly what happened.
Look, I'd (hypothetically) be the first guy to pull over and assist a cop who was in trouble at a traffic stop even if it meant losing my rights to a firearm. I'm as hardcore anti-drug loser as it comes, but I just think these entrys are too dangerous for everyone.
If I were in your position, I would refuse to do it, or try to rally my team mates to refuse as a whole. This kind of action gets far more attention than the letter of a sound guy out in LA.
Now, I'm not prodding. I'm not in your sit', and I don't know all the details or results of any actions that you might take.
Pesonally I feel you are doing what you think is right. Who can argue with that? But you did ask us to offer our opinions and I did the best I could from the outside.

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Same Shot, Different Day
 
Sameshot,
I do everything I can from the inside. Even in our small department (where most of these are multi agency to get the number of officers needed) we plan these operations. There are very few dynamic entrys. Unfortunately, the normal way these things are done (put officers at all the exits, knock on the door and present the search warrant) isn't very dramatic so you don't often see it get the press as the black or camo clad unit does. So you may have a misconception as to how prevelant dynamic entries are. It would be great if we could just show up at the door of drug dealers places of business, present the warrant and ask to be admitted. Unfortunately (and I'm not being flip here) they usually don't want to get caught with the goods and go to jail. So they fortify their places of business. Steel doors, bars on the windows, five gallon buckets of water next to the commodes to aid in flushing the evidence are just some of the things they do. Then look at booby traps and dogs and weapons (not so much to use against the police, but to protect them from their customers and rivals).

Each warrant is different. If we know the doors are barricaded and the dope is kept near the toilet our tactics will be much different then if Junior is selling a little grass from the bedroom in his parent's home.

The former situation will probably result in a dynamic entry in the wee hours of the morning (or maybe later, a lot of dopers around here seem to stay up all hours so it's safer to serve the warrant on them about morning rush hour). The latter situation will usually result in a couple uniformed officers from the regular shift and the detective knocking on the door, presenting the parents with the warrant and asking to search the room.

Dynamic entries are very resource intensive (personnel and equipment) so unless the department has a full time tactical team (not many, even the larger ones do) they are used sparingly.

As I mentioned above, (RE: the University of Kentucky study) police departments are aware of the public perception of these things. It's a lose/lose situation for the police administrator. He can forbid tactical teams and dynamic entry on his watch and then he doesn't have the capability to take out the crack house or meth lab, everytime his officers go there they get no evidence and the criminals continue their activity and the public clamors for his removal because he can't clean up town. Or he can have the capability and upset people who are rightly concerned about their rights. So the only solution being to have that capability and use it judiciously. This is where you come in with your letters and phone calls. If the department that serves you, doesn't use the power you've given them judiciously, take it away from them. Write letters, call everyone from the chief on up, start a letter writing campaign to the editor of the newspaper (reporters are more likely to be sympathetic to abuses of the rights of drug suspects then weapons suspects, but that's a different thread). If enough officials feel enough public outrage, they'll reign them in.

The problem is that there aren't enough concerned citizens out there. Most people seem to be oblivious to all that happens around them until it directly affects them.

There would have been accountability for Waco and Ruby Ridge had congress felt enough heat. There should have been accountability so that the public had confidence in the system. I'm going to say something that will probably get me on a list if such lists exist. Besides McVeigh and Nichols the people most responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing was the administration and the congress. By failing to hold the people responsible for Waco accountable for their actions and bad decisions, they gave those people a cause. I don't pretend to be able to know what was in their head, but perhaps if they saw that things like Waco and Ruby Ridge were the crimes that they were and those that were responsible were held accountable, maybe that terrible act wouldn't have occurred. I do know that when those entrusted to enforce the law are permitted to run amok the dirt soils everyone who wears a badge and tries to do things right. And it makes our jobs that much harder, and those of us on the forum talk about this and sometimes hurl flames at each other instead of sharing our common love for the shooting sports.
Jeff
 
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