You know that feeling like you just got ripped off?
- Thread starter Onslaught
- Start date
Another thing to consider is what an older friend told me once; never let the extra prop go with the boat. If you think about it, a person usually expects the seller to throw in "Free" anything small. They will not pay one cent more for the firearm with the mags then without them. I know that original cap mags are not "small" any more but we do all still think of them as accessories to the firearm.
PigPen
PigPen
glockorama
New member
Whenever I sell a firearm I include everything I have for the gun, Hi-caps, scopes, etc. And I ask a fair and honest price. I guess I'm just a dope that wants to give and get a straight up deal.
I don't claim to be an expert on guns, but I have been involved in shooting for 30 years, and in that time I have seen many underhanded moves from gunshops. I have friends that work or have worked in them and they tell me about the tricks the shops pull.
I know that Tamara and others work in shops and are probably sensitive to criticism about this subject, but that's how I feel.
But I'm sure I'm wrong because Tamara is always right.
Sorry to rock the boat with an individual opinion.
I don't claim to be an expert on guns, but I have been involved in shooting for 30 years, and in that time I have seen many underhanded moves from gunshops. I have friends that work or have worked in them and they tell me about the tricks the shops pull.
I know that Tamara and others work in shops and are probably sensitive to criticism about this subject, but that's how I feel.
But I'm sure I'm wrong because Tamara is always right.
Sorry to rock the boat with an individual opinion.
If you go into a store and look at an item (new OR used) and its accessories and then agree upon a price with full knowledge of the complete purchase package, you have not been ripped off.
If you get home and the item or its accessories are not what you agreed upon, THEN, you have been ripped off.
When a dealer (or private citizen) buys an item (new from a wholesaler or used from a private citizen), he is free to add accessories, delete accessories, modify the item for good or bad, as long as he does not misrepresent the item when he resells it. IMO, if you modify the item, you should not sell it as new. IMO, if you modify the accessory package, you should note the modifications to prevent misunderstandings.
NOW, on the other hand, if you order an item through a dealer (he is acting as the middleman for a fee--you are, in effect, purchasing direct from the wholesaler/manufacturer) and he modifies the item or its accessoriy package before turning it over to you, THAT is fraud.
I don't see how you can believe you've been ripped off when you knew what you were getting and what you were paying before agreeing to the deal.
The LEO mag snafu is another story. The dealer should have cut you a little more slack there, IMO.
If you get home and the item or its accessories are not what you agreed upon, THEN, you have been ripped off.
When a dealer (or private citizen) buys an item (new from a wholesaler or used from a private citizen), he is free to add accessories, delete accessories, modify the item for good or bad, as long as he does not misrepresent the item when he resells it. IMO, if you modify the item, you should not sell it as new. IMO, if you modify the accessory package, you should note the modifications to prevent misunderstandings.
NOW, on the other hand, if you order an item through a dealer (he is acting as the middleman for a fee--you are, in effect, purchasing direct from the wholesaler/manufacturer) and he modifies the item or its accessoriy package before turning it over to you, THAT is fraud.
I don't see how you can believe you've been ripped off when you knew what you were getting and what you were paying before agreeing to the deal.
The LEO mag snafu is another story. The dealer should have cut you a little more slack there, IMO.
contender4040
New member
Ever wonder how a small gun shop can compete with the marts? Check out a shotgun news. A remington express 12 ga or an nef shotgun at a wal-mart are sometimes cheaper retail than what a small gunshop can buy it for themselves wholesale. Talk about a negative price margin!
A new gun should come with everything that is advertised with it. Standard rugers do come with 2 mags but the Davidson "specials" in two-tone come with one mag.
S.O.G. often sells police trade-in glocks but they advertise them with one hi-cap--not two.
So let us run the small shops out of business and trade at wal-mart. Opps--forgot that wal-mart quit selling handguns. Wonder when they will finish rolling over for the anti-gun crowd and stop selling long guns?
What would sell faster for most gun shops? A used $400 glock with two 10 rounders and hi-caps on the side or a $590 glock in the same condition with hi-caps?
From going to gun shows, the $400 "special" wins hands down. The hi-caps probably may sell faster than the pistol itself. Individual gun owners do this. This problem was not created by a gunshop---it was created by federal law.
Economics are a pain in the #%@# but have you noticed that there are less ffl's out there?
Bad gunshops using deceptive trade practices deserve to go down in flames. A good gunshop will
have to make an acceptable profit margin or go down in flames. Saying a shop should sell used non-leo hi-caps always with a used gun is the same thing as saying an individual must always sell his own hi-caps with the pistol he sells--but price your gun $90.00 less than what it could bring because the hi-caps should not be figured into the price.
A new gun should come with everything that is advertised with it. Standard rugers do come with 2 mags but the Davidson "specials" in two-tone come with one mag.
S.O.G. often sells police trade-in glocks but they advertise them with one hi-cap--not two.
So let us run the small shops out of business and trade at wal-mart. Opps--forgot that wal-mart quit selling handguns. Wonder when they will finish rolling over for the anti-gun crowd and stop selling long guns?
What would sell faster for most gun shops? A used $400 glock with two 10 rounders and hi-caps on the side or a $590 glock in the same condition with hi-caps?
From going to gun shows, the $400 "special" wins hands down. The hi-caps probably may sell faster than the pistol itself. Individual gun owners do this. This problem was not created by a gunshop---it was created by federal law.
Economics are a pain in the #%@# but have you noticed that there are less ffl's out there?
Bad gunshops using deceptive trade practices deserve to go down in flames. A good gunshop will
have to make an acceptable profit margin or go down in flames. Saying a shop should sell used non-leo hi-caps always with a used gun is the same thing as saying an individual must always sell his own hi-caps with the pistol he sells--but price your gun $90.00 less than what it could bring because the hi-caps should not be figured into the price.
riddleofsteel
New member
I used to do the same thing. I would buy a gun and procede to spend a ton on grips, mags, holsters, sights, ect. ect. If and when I sold that gun I would kinda throw all that in. Lately though I have found there is a decent market for good gun extras and I have had good luck selling this stuff.
If you are selling a NEW product as a retail dealer and robbing or switching parts that may actually be a type of fraud. A customer expects all the parts and extras that come with that product from the factory to be there, installed as shipped and intact. However, if something is used it becomes buyer beware. Just because a weapon came with X, Y, or Z (NEW) does not mean it will have it or them when you buy it used. It would be like a car dealer taking the high quaility radial tires off of a Lexus and putting a set of bias ply off brands on and just not mentioning it was done.
If you are selling a NEW product as a retail dealer and robbing or switching parts that may actually be a type of fraud. A customer expects all the parts and extras that come with that product from the factory to be there, installed as shipped and intact. However, if something is used it becomes buyer beware. Just because a weapon came with X, Y, or Z (NEW) does not mean it will have it or them when you buy it used. It would be like a car dealer taking the high quaility radial tires off of a Lexus and putting a set of bias ply off brands on and just not mentioning it was done.
Mikey357, I was using the Kimber swap-out as an example. Yes, buyer beware, especially with used guns. But a first gen. G19 came with two hi-caps. Why doesn't the dealer just include them with the gun and bump the price up accordingly? And all ths talk about two hi-caps making a difference in keeping the lights on ... not at the shops I frequent. How about the NIB SAR-1 with three 30-round mags. and a 10-round mag. for $500 I recently saw advertised. Does that sound like the dealer is headed to the poorhouse? Or making about 30 percent profit?
OkieCruffler
New member
"How about the NIB SAR-1 with three 30-round mags. and a 10-round mag. for $500 I recently saw advertised. Does that sound like the dealer is headed to the poorhouse? Or making about 30 percent profit?"
Did you run over and buy the SAR? Do you think anyone else did? Do you think anyone will ever pay that price for it? In my 7 years in selling musical equipment, I can't think of a single time I sold anything for the price marked. Everyone wants to dicker for the best price, at least around here. And the price of keeping the lights on has to be figured into everything you sell, along with rent or property taxes, insurance, security (unless you're daft), and heaven forbid you're hiring someone to work the shop for you. At $5/hr+10% commission(what I paid my guy several years ago) that's $55 off of the SAR that the owner is not making, right off the top. I'm not saying that every shop owner is a saint, out of the 5 local area shops, I only do business with two of them. But if you find a shop that takes care of your needs, don't begrudge them a little profit. After all, when was the last time Wallyworld jumped thru any hoops to get your special order for you?
Did you run over and buy the SAR? Do you think anyone else did? Do you think anyone will ever pay that price for it? In my 7 years in selling musical equipment, I can't think of a single time I sold anything for the price marked. Everyone wants to dicker for the best price, at least around here. And the price of keeping the lights on has to be figured into everything you sell, along with rent or property taxes, insurance, security (unless you're daft), and heaven forbid you're hiring someone to work the shop for you. At $5/hr+10% commission(what I paid my guy several years ago) that's $55 off of the SAR that the owner is not making, right off the top. I'm not saying that every shop owner is a saint, out of the 5 local area shops, I only do business with two of them. But if you find a shop that takes care of your needs, don't begrudge them a little profit. After all, when was the last time Wallyworld jumped thru any hoops to get your special order for you?
You wern't ripped off. As the first poster said, they wern't your magazines, they were his. He bought them and has the right to do with them what he wants. If he wanted to sell the gun with no magazines, that is his business and you have the right not to buy it. Let's expand this senario a little. When I buy an autoloader, I always buy at least six magazines to go with it. Am I somehow obligated to include all six magazines in the deal ? No. I have done this myself. I had a Beretta 92 (I think that was what it was) with 12 standard capacity magazines. I was willing to sell the whole thing as a package, but the guy I was selling the gun to said he didn't "need" 12 magazines, so I sold him the gun with one magazine per his request and sold the magazines to two other guys, six each. Using your logic, I should have just given the first guy all the magazines whether he wanted them or was willing to pay for them. I am sure you can see that it wouldn't be all that hard to have more of YOUR money invested in the magazines and accessories than the value of the gun.
We have seen any number of threads on this board entitled; You might be a gun nut............. If you say you don't "need" 12 magazines, you arn't a gun nut.
We have seen any number of threads on this board entitled; You might be a gun nut............. If you say you don't "need" 12 magazines, you arn't a gun nut.
Here's a hypothetical one for you: How do we know those G19 mags on the wall had anything to do with the 1st gen G19 our intrepid poster bought? I've had 1st gen guns traded in with one or two 10-rounders before; should I not have sold them until I could scrape up two 15-rounders to put out with them?
If somebody brings in an el-cheapo lever gun with a Leupold or a Browning A-bolt with a Trashco Pronghorn, should I leave the scopes on their respective rifles, switch them to the better-matched gun to make more effective sales packages, or maybe put the Leupold on the A-bolt and leave the Tasco aside to be thrown in as a freebie "deal closer" on some other rifle?
glockorama
New member
Lets be honest. Everyone, both gunshop owners and private citizens selling, try to get over on the consumer. It's what we've become as a society. How to buy something for a dollar and sell it for two. Too bad too few realize that there is so much to life than that.
"Lets be honest. Everyone, both gunshop owners and private citizens selling, try to get over on the consumer. "
I hope you don't do any investing. After all, you wouldn't want to try to get over on anyone by actually making any money on them. If you bought Microsoft for 25 cents a share, you should sell it for 25 cents a share. That's only fair. We need to learn to come together as a nation and unite as socialists. Lennin would be very proud comrade.
I hope you don't do any investing. After all, you wouldn't want to try to get over on anyone by actually making any money on them. If you bought Microsoft for 25 cents a share, you should sell it for 25 cents a share. That's only fair. We need to learn to come together as a nation and unite as socialists. Lennin would be very proud comrade.
Let's be honest. Consumers try to get over on both gunshop owners and private citizens selling.
The shop owner and individual selling an item is trying to get as much for that item as they possibly can. The consumer is trying to pay as little for that item as they possibly can.
Who is the "bad guy" in the scenario?
Nobody.
It's called the "free market". Either side is free to not conclude a deal if they are unhappy in any way with any aspect of it.
brandon_h3
Moderator
My two cents......
I'm not real educated on this topic but here goes: Quite simply put...if you buy a gun from a gunshop and it is NIB, then you should get everything that is supposed to be in that box, otherwise it is tampering with merchandise and serious legal action can be had.
I'm not real educated on this topic but here goes: Quite simply put...if you buy a gun from a gunshop and it is NIB, then you should get everything that is supposed to be in that box, otherwise it is tampering with merchandise and serious legal action can be had.
glockorama
New member
Bob, I think you are missing my "big picture" point.
Look...
...a "good deal" is one that both parties walk away from happy. Profit involved is immaterial to the ethics thereof.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." -Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations
I know somebody who had two like-new FML high-cap Glock mags that had originally cost him a combined total of $20. He saw a friend at a gun show with a beautiful Swedish Mauser who was just talking about how he'd "stolen it" for $50. Our protagonist offered to trade the two mags to his friend for the rifle. His friend initially demurred, since the rifle was worth maybe $150 and the Glock mags were a G21 and a G23, and worth on the north side of $200 together. Our man with the mags corrected him and said "That may be what you can eventually sell them for; however they cost me nothing. If we trade, I am into a beautiful rifle for $20 and you are into $200+ worth of magazines for $50. Everybody's happy."
And indeed, everybody was.
Now, what would the "ethical" thing have been?
...a "good deal" is one that both parties walk away from happy. Profit involved is immaterial to the ethics thereof.
"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest." -Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations
I know somebody who had two like-new FML high-cap Glock mags that had originally cost him a combined total of $20. He saw a friend at a gun show with a beautiful Swedish Mauser who was just talking about how he'd "stolen it" for $50. Our protagonist offered to trade the two mags to his friend for the rifle. His friend initially demurred, since the rifle was worth maybe $150 and the Glock mags were a G21 and a G23, and worth on the north side of $200 together. Our man with the mags corrected him and said "That may be what you can eventually sell them for; however they cost me nothing. If we trade, I am into a beautiful rifle for $20 and you are into $200+ worth of magazines for $50. Everybody's happy."
And indeed, everybody was.
Now, what would the "ethical" thing have been?
Well Gentlemen (and CERTAINLY Ladies )
That's why I came to you guys with the question. I see your point, since the pistol I bought was indeed a trade-in, I have no right to argue, and I should shut up. You guys wouldn't believe the wierd stuff I come up with at 3:00am that goes away in the morning...
What happened was that I let my feelings about how they did the "refurb's" affect how I felt about my purchase. I still believe that taking the hi-caps out of a refurb that came straight from Glock intending to have 2 hi-caps in it, selling for around $450, is dishonest if you take out the 2 mags, and still sell the gun for $450. But in my case, USED is USED.
Because that's what the man (who I like and talk to a lot but is not the owner) was trying to tell me without telling me. He couldn't come right out and say "we took these mags from the gun you just bought..." That's why he pointed to the 19's. I could tell that he too was uncomfortable selling the pistol like that to a repeat customer. He first tried to sell it to me for $350, and I couldn't figure out why HE lowered the price $50 when I already said $400.... I believe it was because he knew how much was paid for it.
Anyway, he's a good guy, the owner's a good guy, I'm paranoid, and I will continue to shop there. I will probably go in and offer them $120 for both mags... Assuming they don't browse TFL and think I was "badmouthing" them... Hey, I was asking a fair question, alleviating some concerns, and I didn't mention any names.
Thanks for setting me straight.
Onslaught
) That's why I came to you guys with the question. I see your point, since the pistol I bought was indeed a trade-in, I have no right to argue, and I should shut up. You guys wouldn't believe the wierd stuff I come up with at 3:00am that goes away in the morning...
What happened was that I let my feelings about how they did the "refurb's" affect how I felt about my purchase. I still believe that taking the hi-caps out of a refurb that came straight from Glock intending to have 2 hi-caps in it, selling for around $450, is dishonest if you take out the 2 mags, and still sell the gun for $450. But in my case, USED is USED.
Because that's what the man (who I like and talk to a lot but is not the owner) was trying to tell me without telling me. He couldn't come right out and say "we took these mags from the gun you just bought..." That's why he pointed to the 19's. I could tell that he too was uncomfortable selling the pistol like that to a repeat customer. He first tried to sell it to me for $350, and I couldn't figure out why HE lowered the price $50 when I already said $400.... I believe it was because he knew how much was paid for it.
Anyway, he's a good guy, the owner's a good guy, I'm paranoid, and I will continue to shop there. I will probably go in and offer them $120 for both mags... Assuming they don't browse TFL and think I was "badmouthing" them... Hey, I was asking a fair question, alleviating some concerns, and I didn't mention any names.
Thanks for setting me straight.
Onslaught