You killed my family member -- now I will support you for the rest of your life.

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I am definitely for the death penalty when it comes to capital murder. I am a Christian and I read quite a bit about Christian theology, and will comment on the Biblical aspect of "Eye for and eye and Tooth for tooth". This was put into the old Testament as a means for understanding justice. This was the rule. If a man stole $10.00 worth of goods from you, then you could only collect $10.00 plus interest from the thief. This was to keep people from demanding excessive penalties from the accused. It's called justice. Or you get what you deserve. As far as raping of a woman, the BG would then have to make appropriate restitution to the woman, and no more. And you didn't have to pay back in the same kind what you stole or raped. (Read the first five books of the Bible to get a better understanding.) But it had to be equivilant. Pay your debt and be done. Like it should be. Do the crime, pay the fine or do the time and that's that. Don't hold a grudge after the debt is fully paid. I'm no apostle, by any means, but this is my understanding. And I'm sure the founding fathers were influenced by this bit of ancient law, and saw to it that "no cruel or unusual punishments" could be inflicted. Therefore, I don't this bit of timeless wisdom is outdated. Unless justice is outdated. Which it probably is. :( This was not meant to be cruel, but to limit what one could demand for justice.

And the Bible does have much to say about revenge. People are not to have malice in establishing justice. The Bible claims that "...Vengence is mine, thus saith The LORD." God will revenge, not us. We are to promote justice in a sober manner.

As far as death penalty for capital murder in the Christian worldview, I would only point people to a book titled "Principles of Conduct, Aspects of Biblical Ethics" by John Murray, written 1957. Chapter five - Sanctity of Life. This was written prior to any abortion debate in America and is an exposition on Genesis. Particularly on Genesis Chapter 9. Dr. Murray gives a solid answer as to why the death penalty not only should, but must be a part of a moral justice system. He is an intelligent man and his writing is heavy, but I will quote part of his last paragraph in Chpt 5.

"...Nothing shows the moral bankruptcy of a people or of a generation more than disregard for the sanctity of human life. And it is this same atrophy of moral fibre that appears in the plea for the abolition of the death penalty. It is the sanctity of life that validates the death penalty for the crime of murder. It is the sense of this sanctity that constrains the demand for the infliction of this penalty. The deeper our regard for life the firmer will be our hold upon the penal sanction which the violation of that sancity merits."

Oh yes, I argee with FUD. And so does the Bible. :)

Sundee School dismissed. ;)
 
Thank you MP Freeman. One final point for those that may not agree. This is an actual case that happened in New Jersey about half a dozen years ago. I won't mention names & places out of respect for the victims ...

A mother of two went to return a video at a local shopping center. A man who was out of prison less than one month car-jacked her, raped her and to ensure that she could not identify him, killed her. When caught and presented with evidence that could not be explained away by any of means, he finally admitted to the crime but his lawyer argued that he should be allowed to live so his young children could see their father.

What about the children who want to see their mother -- the mother that he killed -- the mother who did nothing wrong. Why should she lose her life for NO wrong doing but he be allowed to keep his?

What about the husband of the woman? He lost a wife and now has to raise his children alone and without the means of a second income which she provided. Yet, there are those in our society (EnochGale?) who feel that we should spend $23,000 a year on keeping him locked up for his crime for the rest of his life. If you really feel like spending money, how about spending the $346.51 on an execution and giving that $23,000 a year to the victim's family to help them in their hardship?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FUD:
This "right to a lawyer", is that FOREVER? Or only for the initial trial?[/quote]

If the court agrees to hear the appeal the court will pay the attorney . The appeal is considered a new trial for these purposes . Many many many dumb cases are paid for by the court thereby giving people a reason to file more .



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TOM
SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA GOA
 
Keep in mind that the perp spends the rest of his life in a concrete-and-steel cage. Not much of a life.

By the state not killing the perp, we ensure that we don't accidentally kill an innocent (an absolutely intolerable act), give him a chance to reform (unlikely in most cases, but still possible), and preserve the view that all life is precious and should only be taken to protect another innocent life from immediate danger of death.

If you ARE going to have a death penalty, it should only be in unquestionable cases (multiple witnesses, on videotape, etc.), and punishment should be swift. It should also be straightforward and clearly on a state agent's shoulders (say, all-live-rounds firing squad, or hanging; nothing obfuscatory like electrocution or lethal injection).
 
So long as there's exists the slimmest chance that an innocent person might be put to death there must be a thorough appeals process. It's easy for us to simply say kill them all. Hopefully we'll never be in a situaion where one of us or a family member is wrongly accussed. Don't think it can't happen because it has.

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"Get yourself a Lorcin and lose that nickel plated sissy pistol."
 
No, the worst part of prison is NOT being in a steel and concrete cage.

The worst part of being in prison is being surrounded by a**-ra*ing felons.

Which means, if you're a violent felon, you get to spend time in an area concentrated with people such as yourself (aside from the tangent of people who are felons for wrong reasons, e.g. having sawn-off shotguns or drugs).

I find it troubling that the anti-death-penalty people find it somehow better for someone to be in prison wrongfully convicted than dead wrongfully convicted.

If a good person with a good career etc. goes to prison wrongfully your life is over period. Your reputation will be shattered, your career halted from you being away too long, and perhaps your mind/body destroyed by the horrors of being in with all the felons (probably a**-ra*ed, etc.)

Given the choice I would take execution over being locked up with those people - isolation on death row looks like a picnic compared to being in General Population. Certain death after 20 years of appeals seems better than risk of near death of being in Gen Pop and not dropping the soap for the right prison gang member.

If you want to end the practice of an innocent being wrongfully killed, do it at the point of stopping the awful practice of wrongful conviction, NOT at the punishment.

Because ALL wrongful punishments are grievous and permanent.


Battler.
 
There is nothing obfuscatory about electrocution, or the gas chamber for that matter.

There is a thorough appeals process in place now. Many believe it is too thorough.

Not only is the right to a lawyer forever, they have law libraries in prisons (yes, you heard me right) as well as inmates who become "jalihouse lawyers." Believe me now when I tell you that these people have nothing better to do than file writ after writ protesting the inhuman conditions under which they and their peers are forced to sit on their ass and watch T.V., or lift weights.

The money spent on supporting inmates on death row yields no benefit to society whatsoever.

Revenge, or retribution, is and has always been one of the legitimate reasons why punishment has been imposed on wrongdoers. Along with general deterrence (of the general population), specific deterrence (of the wrongdoer). There is no question but that capital punishment deters the offender from becoming a recidivist. There is no other punishment that is an effective deterrent to prison murders.

Finally, as has been pointed out, there are persons living in this country who are prison gang members or chronic ne'er-do-wells who have it just as good in prison as outside. These persons are only deterred from murder by the threat of capital punishment.

By the way, I am a lawyer who has defended persons accused of murder and worked on a team of lawyers defending capital murder defendants. I can't prove capital punishment is a general deterrent, nor can I prove why the sky is blue. But I know what I've seen and heard.

Regards,

Ledbetter
 
We can't execute convicted killers. That just wouldn't be fair. Now, unborn innocent babies, that's a different matter. Doesn't that make sense?

Scripture: "and they shall call evil good, and good evil...

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NRA Life Member
GOA
GSSF
 
Dammit, you made me read this post, now I'm really mad.

As I often engage in dialogue with those who feel that CP is a crime of murder, only one sanctioned by a State, vs one by an individual in accordance with some silly archaic law. (IOW, CP vs. Abortion.)

My usual conversation stooper is this...
OK, you goto your Congress rep, State & Federal, and tell them you demand that CP stop. And at the same time you also illegalize abortions. Carte Blanche, no questions asked...

What I usually wind up with is, "Well, abortion should be considered a right, not something a State should have anything to do with."
I usually reapond with, Why would you kill a future President, or Father, or Mother, or whatever, for committimg no crime? Whereas, a convicted criminal on Death Row has done many, many things in their life to warrant serious consideration for extinction. And this decision is reviewed many time over the course of an average of 15 yrs.
How many people are going to bat for an unborn childs life, one? The potentional Mother who has made a mistake (in most cases), and decides she doesn't want to deal with this situation.

It's then when the conversation usually goes to hellina handbasket. Because I certainly feel an innocent child deserves all the protection it can get, for it certainly can't protect itself. A career criminal OTOH, has already made the choices to be where they are.
And it's those choices, weighed out against getting caught, that are being tested by the Judicical System.
All an emotional arguement, I know.

Let's go scientific then..

I refer to Newton's Third Law.

For every action there is an opposite, and equal reaction.
Applied to this thread then. If someone uses deadly force, or basically kills someone. Then, they can expect to have a equal but opposite reaction toward themselves.

The Equal part would be, if they shot someone, they get shot. If they used a knife, they get the knife, etc...

The Opposite part means that the force they used comes right back to them directly, not obliquly, or through some convoluted process that delays the effect over an extorted period of time.

Simple enough, isn't it.

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited August 10, 2000).]
 
All criminals are economists of the first order. The decision to commit a crime involves a careful evaluation of the risk (of getting caught and the eventual penalty) against the gain should they not be caught. Biblical law, which is the foundation for our law code, as expressed in the concept "eye for and eye...." is based on proportionate punishment. It has nothing to do with revenge. It involves restoration and restitution. The perp when caught is required to restore what was lost because of his actions AND THEN and additional amount based on the economic utility of what was lost. You steal my chicken, you give me back my chicken plus another chicken (chickens have low economic value). You steal my car, you give me back my car PLUS a significantly greater amount (economic value of a car is much higher since that is how I earn a living).

Let's move to capital crimes. You kill someone with premeditation, you are obligated to restore that life and provide restitution. Because of the inherent value of human life in the view of the Bible, the only means of restoration and restitution is to surrender the life of the one who took the life. Where we run into trouble is there is an unacceptably long period of time between the taking of human life and the payment for that life by execution. We can easily shorten the time between conviction and the death penalty and still take every measure to ensure that innocent people do not die.

Back to economics of crime. Raise the price of criminal behavior and you will reduce incidents of that behavior. Sure and certain capital punishment carried out in a reasonably short period of time will most decidedly reduce murder rates. John Lott demonstrated that when states introduce concealed carry laws, violent personal crimes drop as criminals shift operations to property crimes. Attack someone with a concealed weapon and the price is high, certain and sudden. Since the economic cost of that behavior is high, a smart perp will change his behavior to avoid that price. They can either stop committing crimes or change the nature of the crimes committed.

My view of capital punishment is not based on revenge. Revenge is the province of God, not man. My view of capital punishment is clear-eyed rational. Raise the cost of certain behaviors and those behaviors will most certainly change.

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Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Barry Goldwater--1964
 
I say we keep them in an outdoor, fenced yard with no shade, no beds, and no bathrooms. Oh, and they can eat out of a trough like the animals that they are.

[This message has been edited by PreserveFreedom (edited August 10, 2000).]
 
This disgusts me.

Let me be the first person EVER to say (sarcasm here)

That if I ever maliciously and willfully kill a human being in cold blood then I want to be tried. Convicted and put to death! I accept responsibility of my actions!

Geez...is it so hard to fess up anymore that when you screw up the only person to blame is yourself in 99% of cases?

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Try to take away my gun...and you will see my 2nd Amendment Right in ACTION!!! -Me
 
The "death of a single innocent is too much" argument gets no sympathy from me. In Texas we try our best to see it doesn't happen, and people HAVE BEEN RELEASED FROM DEATH ROW.
But, there is NO perfection in anything else that people do, so why must there be in this? There is a price for freedom and safety and sometimes that cost is in blood. If the "too much" argument is valid then we must Immediately ban guns, cars, five gal. buckets, swimming pools, and everything else that has ever caused a single death. Any other response, if you buy this theory, is pure hypocracy.

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Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
 
Personally, if someone killed a family member I'd rather have them locked up their whole live, I consider that infinitely more nasty a punishment. If I had to choose between death and life in that sort of confinement I'd be plugging my own chair in. Some people, though, do quite clearly need to be removed from the face of this earth and quite quickly.

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I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Well I have a solution here. One of the big arguments is cost.... ok... lets set up a housing fund for the criminal... say start out with $20k in the kitty from the tax payers... Let the liberals who feel that they should not be executed donate to their housing fund.... All expenses to keep the bad guy in prison come out of this fund... when the fund reaches -0-, well sorry, lights out. Lets see just how committed are those who are against the death penilty. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that they won't vote with their pocket book...



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Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
On the topic of revenge vs Justice..

About 10 yrs ago in a little town near here, a little 8 yr old was abducted. The local PD had a pretty good idea who might have been responsible, and went after him. Of course, he denied any knowledge, etc.

After a week or so, he fessed up to the deed. He gave the local PD some pretty intimate details, about the nature of the crime, and the whereabouts of where the girls body was dumped. Seems he drove an inordinate distance to dispose of her body. He related this information to the PD there. They in turn contacted the respective LEO in that area. And one of the Deputies recognized the sketch of the silo the BG described.
Sure as rain, they searched the silo, and fouind her body. She'd been raped, stabbed with a dull knife, and when that didn't killher, he strangled her. Then tied her up???

Now, given the above case, how can anyone feel that this a$$hole wasn't involved?
That there is a preponderence of doubt that he acted solely, and with malice to commit the acts of rape, and murder?
Yes, he was found giulty, and sentenced to an extended period at the Y.M.C.A. (Young Mens Confinement Academy). Where he has a clean bed, water, eats, a gym to exercise, a TV to watch, movies to watch.
Friends and Family to visit him occasionally.
He gets to watch the Sunrise every morning, and the Sunset at night. He gets the traditional Holiday meals when we celebrate life here on this Earth...

All the things the little girl, and her Family never enjoy together.

Interesting thing about this case though.
After the girls body was found, and he was officially charged, and bail was set.
The little town got together, and decided to raise the bail money to get the guy out of jail. It seems they didn't want him to languish in jail when he had so much to offer the community. They actually had the money in hand, and was about to have him released.
But the CA got wind of it, and approached the Judge, and had the bail revoked. For fear their prize conviction would vanish without them getting the feather in their cap.

Now, the girls Family endure the fate you described.
They get to remember her Birthday without her. Holidays aren't celebrated there.
I wonder why that would be.

After all, the BG is a born again something or other.

How many here would have him in their home when he gets out. You'd certainly trust him wouldn't you? After all, he would have paid his price for his mistake, wouldn't he? And we all know, he would never do it again.

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited August 11, 2000).]
 
Executions do cost more when you add in the cost of up to 38 hearings, trials, and appeals (Robert Glen Coe here in TN) from local state judges up to the Supreme Court, back down, and up again. Also, add in the cost of security transporting to and from, and the expense of keeping the scumbag alive for 10-15 years until you can give them the needle.

Executions cost more for the simple reason that bleeding heart a$$holes make them cost more by coming up with lame-brained schemes and BS appeals, all at taxpayer expense.

Hey, liberals! You want justice? Give the convicted DNA and lie detector tests. If he is cleared, let him go and shoot the moron who framed him. If he's not cleared, shoot him in the testing chair.
 
At 105K, that will do it for this thread.

Feel free to continue the discussion in a Part 2.


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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4
Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
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