You Don't Have to Aim a Shotgun Mythbusting VIDEO
- Thread starter Amsdorf
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TheKlawMan
Moderator
Amsdorf,
You are quick to make definitive statemets about the effects of stress in Home Defense versus Shooting Clays.
Have you ever fired a weapon in an actual close quarters home defense/urban combat situation?
What is your essential experience with the stress of clay shooting?
You are quick to make definitive statemets about the effects of stress in Home Defense versus Shooting Clays.
Have you ever fired a weapon in an actual close quarters home defense/urban combat situation?
What is your essential experience with the stress of clay shooting?
TheKlawMan
Moderator
Amsdorf,
I see you sidestepped my question about whether you had actual close quarters combat or home defense experience. I assume that means you have none.
You also sidestepped the question about slay shooting stress. While it is of another type, I beleive an experience clay shooter would know the stress of sitting on a perfect score while trying to focus on each shot one at a time. So now it seems that you don't know experience withclays or urban armed combat.
You type well.
Troll on. . . .
I see you sidestepped my question about whether you had actual close quarters combat or home defense experience. I assume that means you have none.
You also sidestepped the question about slay shooting stress. While it is of another type, I beleive an experience clay shooter would know the stress of sitting on a perfect score while trying to focus on each shot one at a time. So now it seems that you don't know experience withclays or urban armed combat.
You type well.
Troll on. . . .
Yep, they frown on practicing on people. Flying clays are a little better training than static paper circles."The stress of clay shooting."
The last time you were in a major competition where you were 99-straight in a 100-target event, and that final target meant the difference between champ and chump, weren't you a little stressed? Most folks are.
Well before it gets closed...let me slide in here and say the only time I aim my shotgun is when shooting slugs at deer. Shooting shot, it's point shooting...including many types of small game hunting and running combat course's done mostly in the past.
If this threads done nothing else, it's reminded me how fun running the course's used to be. Time for a refresher course.
If this threads done nothing else, it's reminded me how fun running the course's used to be. Time for a refresher course.
Aim at Clay Targets
If you're on the skeet, trap or SC range and you look at your front sight you're going to miss because you just stopped your swing. I've watched new shooter's barrels stop, go, stop go, because they take their eyes off the target. Stop your swing and you miss.
As far as home invasion, that's a whole different thing, comparing apples to oranges IMO. I've never had to do it, but I have shot a couple slugs at a target once and I had plenty of time to get my head on the gun, look at the front bead and then focused on the target and hit it dead center. That was in a college CJ class and the target was at 25m.
I deer hunt with a rifle and don't turkey hunt so I wont express an opinion on aiming vs pointing there.
If you're on the skeet, trap or SC range and you look at your front sight you're going to miss because you just stopped your swing. I've watched new shooter's barrels stop, go, stop go, because they take their eyes off the target. Stop your swing and you miss.
As far as home invasion, that's a whole different thing, comparing apples to oranges IMO. I've never had to do it, but I have shot a couple slugs at a target once and I had plenty of time to get my head on the gun, look at the front bead and then focused on the target and hit it dead center. That was in a college CJ class and the target was at 25m.
I deer hunt with a rifle and don't turkey hunt so I wont express an opinion on aiming vs pointing there.
Stevie-Ray
New member
TheKlawMan
Moderator
If it helps I apologize for implying that Amdorf is a troll and will try to play nice.
In spite of the, let us say, sometime churlish nature of some of our comments, I do think it has been a healthy debate.
I do not think we can hope to convince clay shooters that home defense with 00 Buck is comparable, and I do not think they can convince us that it is.
I've shot a lot of sporting clays, with a lot of really great shotguns, but I do not regard this to be the same as putting 00 Buck on target in a home defense scenario.
My defense shotgun has a ghost ring and front post, and in the video, it is this sighting system I was using to get the buckshot to stay on paper, in fact, stay in a 6" circle at 25 feet.
In a defense situation, that's the kind of MOBG* I want on the target.
And regardless of what we think we can, or can't do, or aim or point or shoot the shotgun hanging upside down while spitting nickels, I think we all agree that putting the 00 Buck on the bad guy, and only the bad guy, is what we want.
* = Minute of Bad Guy.
I do not think we can hope to convince clay shooters that home defense with 00 Buck is comparable, and I do not think they can convince us that it is.
I've shot a lot of sporting clays, with a lot of really great shotguns, but I do not regard this to be the same as putting 00 Buck on target in a home defense scenario.
My defense shotgun has a ghost ring and front post, and in the video, it is this sighting system I was using to get the buckshot to stay on paper, in fact, stay in a 6" circle at 25 feet.
In a defense situation, that's the kind of MOBG* I want on the target.
And regardless of what we think we can, or can't do, or aim or point or shoot the shotgun hanging upside down while spitting nickels, I think we all agree that putting the 00 Buck on the bad guy, and only the bad guy, is what we want.
* = Minute of Bad Guy.
This video has bothered me from the beginning. Yes, it shows the firepower of a shotgun. But, it never address aiming vs pointing nor not aiming at all. The shooter claims he's aiming every shot; but, if it were a true test there would also be someone else who was pointing a shotgun, and we could compare the results.
It's not even a good video to give us an idea of pattern spread with respect distance because all of the distances referenced are approximate. And we don't have a clue about how well the shooter estimates distances. Nor is it an example of how different chokes might change pattern sizes.
I think my basic problem is the tread's claim to be "mythbusting" -- for me this didn't even come close to happening. I think I have a different idea about the myth than the OP does. He claims the myth is something like: "Get a shotgun, you don't even have to aim." My take on the myth is: "If your not an experienced shooter, your chances are better with a shotgun than a rifle or handgun." Who in their right mind would believe a shotgun will magically hit its target? Of course, you have to aim/point at the target.
I was curious, why the provocative, and possibly misleading title? I did notice, before I could watch the video, I had to sit through a commercial, and where there's internet ads, there's money involved. Then, I looked at the OP's TFL posting history, and it's almost exclusively in the nature of, "Look at the video I just posted." Are we the victims of subtle spam?
It's not even a good video to give us an idea of pattern spread with respect distance because all of the distances referenced are approximate. And we don't have a clue about how well the shooter estimates distances. Nor is it an example of how different chokes might change pattern sizes.
I think my basic problem is the tread's claim to be "mythbusting" -- for me this didn't even come close to happening. I think I have a different idea about the myth than the OP does. He claims the myth is something like: "Get a shotgun, you don't even have to aim." My take on the myth is: "If your not an experienced shooter, your chances are better with a shotgun than a rifle or handgun." Who in their right mind would believe a shotgun will magically hit its target? Of course, you have to aim/point at the target.
I was curious, why the provocative, and possibly misleading title? I did notice, before I could watch the video, I had to sit through a commercial, and where there's internet ads, there's money involved. Then, I looked at the OP's TFL posting history, and it's almost exclusively in the nature of, "Look at the video I just posted." Are we the victims of subtle spam?
TheKlawMan
Moderator
Yes, Amsdorf, we agree that the putting the hit on the bad guy, and only the bad guy, is what we want. I do not agree, though, as many do not agree that you need to or should use 00B. That depends to some degree on the individuals situation.
I do admit that I only practiced one day with buck and slugs and do not pretend to have learned that much in a couple of hours. The range officer giving me some advice, and when he learned of a mutual acquainance he took a great deal of interest in showing me the ropes, had be blasting away with an 870 short barrel at a silhouette target from 10 yards with 00b and slugs. The drill was to take my safety of as the gun comes up from waist level and to shoot as soon as I get a cheed weld with the breifest look at the bead.
Those lucky enough to live in rural environments with some land may have situations where home defense coujld include a longer shot, but it is hard to imagine the need to take a shot much beyond 10 yards in my suburban area.
I am a crappy shot, but all of my buck was in the black and my slugs were withing an inch of my poa. I didn't just shoot individual shots but pumped and refired as fast as possible for effect.
That was back when I had no more than 300 clay shots down range. I am still a crappy shooter, but have somewhere in excess of 8,000 clay attempts and beleive I have improved with that "game" a little.
But you do have me thinking that I should revisit the rifle range where I can get some practice in with Buck and Slugs, as well as this new fangled Ultimate Home Defense stuff with the high density BBs. While my primary load is that stuff, I have an ample supply of 00B and slugs in case all hell were to break lose.
I do admit that I only practiced one day with buck and slugs and do not pretend to have learned that much in a couple of hours. The range officer giving me some advice, and when he learned of a mutual acquainance he took a great deal of interest in showing me the ropes, had be blasting away with an 870 short barrel at a silhouette target from 10 yards with 00b and slugs. The drill was to take my safety of as the gun comes up from waist level and to shoot as soon as I get a cheed weld with the breifest look at the bead.
Those lucky enough to live in rural environments with some land may have situations where home defense coujld include a longer shot, but it is hard to imagine the need to take a shot much beyond 10 yards in my suburban area.
I am a crappy shot, but all of my buck was in the black and my slugs were withing an inch of my poa. I didn't just shoot individual shots but pumped and refired as fast as possible for effect.
That was back when I had no more than 300 clay shots down range. I am still a crappy shooter, but have somewhere in excess of 8,000 clay attempts and beleive I have improved with that "game" a little.
But you do have me thinking that I should revisit the rifle range where I can get some practice in with Buck and Slugs, as well as this new fangled Ultimate Home Defense stuff with the high density BBs. While my primary load is that stuff, I have an ample supply of 00B and slugs in case all hell were to break lose.
Stevie-Ray
New member
Obviously, you haven't seen some of the people applying for CPLs in my state. (Agree that this is probably the norm for ANY state.) Some of the people that were in my original class were shocking with their ignorance. We could tell they were being told BS outside of class, and were taking it as gospel, not to mention their total incompetence with their own weapons. I have to wonder how many of them gave up on the idea of using a handgun and bought a shotgun "because they couldn't miss." I have proven to myself many times by my small patterns at 7 yards that in HD distances you damn sure WILL miss if you haven't pointed/aimed that thing well enough. I submit that, pointing at a clay pigeon 30 yards away with target load invites a much bigger pattern, and a better chance of hitting with something. YMMV.
TheKlawMan
Moderator
A better chance of hitting compared to what, hitting a stationary or slow moving target at a third the distance?
Sure, Stevie-Ray, your pattern at 30 yards is larger than at 10. It may be 30" in diameter depending on choke, but that 4+ inch target is still moving at a pretty good clip and often requires more than a single hit to break the clay. Then you have variables such as angles, wind gusts, leads.
Isn't the horse dead yet?
Stevie-Ray
New member
Yeah, you're right, as I have said I pretty much suck at shotgunning games. But I do shoot a lot at HD distances. I'm just saying that taking "you can't miss" at face value is a dangerous thing, considering patterns at 7 yards or less-I found that out with my first few shots years ago. I also know personally 3 people that have only a shotgun for HD and have never fired them. Since 2 out of 3 of those people have normal 870s, their patterns are going to be even tighter than mine. Likely victims of "Here, buy this. You can't miss with it." I never asked, just a guess.
People that truly "can't miss" with a shotgun have all my respect. But most of them have been doing it for a long time. Don't ever try to sell a shotgun to somebody with that line within earshot of me, as it's a true pet peeve of mine. Stick a fork in me.
Stevie-Ray, I find it hard to swallow that the folks in your state believe in magic, but they may be misinformed about how shotguns pattern. With respect to shooting at HD distances, consider Skeet's Station-8 where, with proper pointing, targets are routinely ink-balled at less than 7-yards. Yes, it takes training (not magic) since the pattern has developed very little at that distance.
I think we can all agree, if you're going to use a firearm for HD, get more training than just video games and watching YouTube. How many times do we see members' proud pictures of their HD guns that exhibit no signs of wear?
I think we can all agree, if you're going to use a firearm for HD, get more training than just video games and watching YouTube. How many times do we see members' proud pictures of their HD guns that exhibit no signs of wear?
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