I completely agree. I value accuracy highly and have had to work hard learn that combat accuracy does not require very small groups. Center mass is good enough if delivered quickly. The reason most of us don't shoot fast very well is we just don't do it, including cops. It is not a skill to be learned in a gun fight.
You can't miss fast enough
- Thread starter AzShooter
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I completely agree. I value accuracy highly and have had to work hard learn that combat accuracy does not require very small groups. Center mass is good enough if delivered quickly. The reason most of us don't shoot fast very well is we just don't do it, including cops. It is not a skill to be learned in a gun fight.
I agree. Most seem to be fixated on shooting little groups and not looking at things realistically. Its not hard to shoot well quickly, but you dont learn to do it, by trying to shoot bug holes, slow fire.
Im not disparaging shooting bug holes either.
True, but why is it when we hear of it, its usually the cops that are doing the dumping and having a terrible hit to miss ratio?
That incident in NYC that got a bunch (If I remember right, it was 9) of bystanders fired up, comes to mind most recently. The bad guy fired fewer rounds, and actually had a better hit record. At least he hit who he was shooting at.
There is a difference between spraying and praying, and shooting quickly too. Just because youre shooting fast, doesnt mean its the former. Then theres always knowing when to speed up and slow down too. But again, you only learn that with practice, and you dont get that, from just working on basic type target shooting.
Kraigwy said "I don't want to practice MISSING, I don't care about the overall scores".........
I could not agree more.
I shoot several times a week and some weeks I shoot every day. As a gunsmith you would expect that.
I don't shoot in competition, but I have a bit in the past.
But when I was in my late teens, 20s and early 30s I "played' for real and I can tell you that only hits count. Making hits before an enemy does is what is important.
We all love to shoot groups to test our skills and to test ammo and guns, but in the real world of hunting or fighting it never happens. Even in those times when we fire more than one shot we are shooting for effect, not for groups.
Having seen many men shot with full-auto weapons, (many of those weapons being belt fed) I can tell you even they did not have a "group" on their bodies.
Slow down enough to make good hits! Nothing else really matters.
I could not agree more.
I shoot several times a week and some weeks I shoot every day. As a gunsmith you would expect that.
I don't shoot in competition, but I have a bit in the past.
But when I was in my late teens, 20s and early 30s I "played' for real and I can tell you that only hits count. Making hits before an enemy does is what is important.
We all love to shoot groups to test our skills and to test ammo and guns, but in the real world of hunting or fighting it never happens. Even in those times when we fire more than one shot we are shooting for effect, not for groups.
Having seen many men shot with full-auto weapons, (many of those weapons being belt fed) I can tell you even they did not have a "group" on their bodies.
Slow down enough to make good hits! Nothing else really matters.
That is the essence of this discussion in my opinion. In order to be able to do this, I have to learn to be able to shoot quickly, because I don't know how much time I will get in a real-world incident. I can get on center mass very quickly. I can shoot very small groups at self-defense range. I can't usually do both at the same time. Being able to do both is important. In order to do that, both skills have to be developed and maintained. Being a great shot in a gunfight means nothing if your enemy is faster than you.
Here is a type of drill I make for my students who are going to an advanced level. It is done with pistols, rifles and shotguns.
You can set up the course in half a day.
Set up a high line using poles or trees.
Hang a soft reactive target about 6" square or round on a wire cable, so it can be swung from the middle of the high line. Have someone sprint across the target area as fast as they can and time it. It's not necessary to be precise, but try to get a time within about 1 second. Now swing the target from a height so it covers the ground at about the same speed. The higher you start the swing the faster the target moves.
Have your students fire at the target as it is moving. One hit per point. No "groups" shot at all.
Try to hit it both swinging out and swinging in. Do it from different angles.
Shoot from different positions. Also different ranges. You can vary the speed of the target by starting the swing from different heights.
I have students use handguns and shotguns from 3 yards to 50 yards, and rifles from 5 yards to 300 yards.
If you get really good at this drill you'll also be able hit a lot of running rabbits when you go hunt for them. Deer on the run become pretty easy.
Someone that hits 75% or more on such a course is VERY good at the kind of shooting you will have to do in a fight.
It takes the average student about 1 year and a lot of rounds fired to get really good at this, but the time and ammo is worth it.
From the shooters prospective the targets are moving not only side to side, but also up or down depending on where in the arc you fire at them, and how close the trees or poles are together. When the poles are very close you can set the target 8 feet off the ground and have it come within 6" of the ground at the bottom of the arc. It makes for very good training.
I make a shelf to set the target on that is released by a pull cord so I can be safely away from the fired rounds.
For rifle shooting I get about 75 yards away from the pole and for handguns I am about 30 yards away. I use para-cord to pull the release to set the target in motion.
You can set up the course in half a day.
Set up a high line using poles or trees.
Hang a soft reactive target about 6" square or round on a wire cable, so it can be swung from the middle of the high line. Have someone sprint across the target area as fast as they can and time it. It's not necessary to be precise, but try to get a time within about 1 second. Now swing the target from a height so it covers the ground at about the same speed. The higher you start the swing the faster the target moves.
Have your students fire at the target as it is moving. One hit per point. No "groups" shot at all.
Try to hit it both swinging out and swinging in. Do it from different angles.
Shoot from different positions. Also different ranges. You can vary the speed of the target by starting the swing from different heights.
I have students use handguns and shotguns from 3 yards to 50 yards, and rifles from 5 yards to 300 yards.
If you get really good at this drill you'll also be able hit a lot of running rabbits when you go hunt for them. Deer on the run become pretty easy.
Someone that hits 75% or more on such a course is VERY good at the kind of shooting you will have to do in a fight.
It takes the average student about 1 year and a lot of rounds fired to get really good at this, but the time and ammo is worth it.
From the shooters prospective the targets are moving not only side to side, but also up or down depending on where in the arc you fire at them, and how close the trees or poles are together. When the poles are very close you can set the target 8 feet off the ground and have it come within 6" of the ground at the bottom of the arc. It makes for very good training.
I make a shelf to set the target on that is released by a pull cord so I can be safely away from the fired rounds.
For rifle shooting I get about 75 yards away from the pole and for handguns I am about 30 yards away. I use para-cord to pull the release to set the target in motion.
In response to this:
"Being a great shot in a gunfight means nothing if your enemy is faster than you".
Not necessarily.
I have been missed!
That means my enemies fired before I did. They WERE faster.
Slowing down to the point that you can make a hit is necessary.
With practice that can be very fast, but never fire faster than you can make a hit.
If you miss you have recovery time to deal with and in some cases you may have just given your position away for not good reason.
If you fire fast and miss the result is the same as not firing if the enemy fires a first hit.
So "going fast" did nothing good for you at all in that case.
Slow down and aim!
Shoot as fast as you can make hits and NO faster.
"Being a great shot in a gunfight means nothing if your enemy is faster than you".
Not necessarily.
I have been missed!
That means my enemies fired before I did. They WERE faster.
Slowing down to the point that you can make a hit is necessary.
With practice that can be very fast, but never fire faster than you can make a hit.
If you miss you have recovery time to deal with and in some cases you may have just given your position away for not good reason.
If you fire fast and miss the result is the same as not firing if the enemy fires a first hit.
So "going fast" did nothing good for you at all in that case.
Slow down and aim!
Shoot as fast as you can make hits and NO faster.
Wyosmith said:
Exactly! I got into a "discussion" with someone on another forum because I wasn't shooting acceptable groups in his internet-expert opinion. He even went as far as to say something like "you'd never be wasting ammo like that on my fire-team." So, I posted the attached photo (I was simply finishing off a partially-load mag at 25 yds) and asked him to pick which 7.62x51 shot that he'd want a member of his team to receive from the enemy. He never did answer my question.
