You can come back to the GOP anytime you want, Pat.

Status
Not open for further replies.

MLT

New member
The following Claremont Institute article is a well written, thought provoking piece discussing Pat Buchanan's divorce from the long-standing core principles of the Republican Party.

The Political Beliefs of Pat Buchanan

By Bruce Herschensohn
{Appeared in the October 26, 1999 edition of the San Diego Union-Tribune}


Since taking office, President Clinton and Vice President Gore have said they wanted to "reinvent government." Please don't. Thomas Jefferson's and James Madison's invention was good enough.

Pat Buchanan has said that he wants to "redefine conservatism." Please don't. William F. Buckley's and Ronald Reagan's definition was good enough.

Their definition did not include a weird reappraisal of the prelude to America's involvement in World War II. It did not strike down the poem of Emma Lazarus on the bronze plaque of the Statue of Liberty, with its invitation of legal immigration. It did not adapt the George McGovern campaign slogan, "Come Home, America." It did not limit our national interest to our borders alone, turning blind eyes to the slaughter of those who live under tyrannical governments throughout the world.

Conservatism was, and remains, a belief in liberty. Conservatism wanted and continues to want the United States to have the power and the ability to oppose those who have no regard for the will of their people. If, in fact, the national interest of the United States is to be confined to our nation's own borders alone, then what makes our foreign policy any more admirable than so many other governments of the world?

The 20th century is recognized by friend and foe the world over as the Century of America. Without us, it would be recorded as the Century of Nazism or the Century of Communism. If we should now draw the defensive line only at our own shores, then what will the 21st century be called? There isn't a chance, under those conditions that it will be called another Century of America.

Buchanan uses, and defends, the term "America First." Both Buchanan and I are old enough not simply to read about, but to remember, what "America First" meant prior to World War II. We were kids, but that memory is indelible. It did not simply mean our nation should take precedence. The purpose of that phrase was to advocate that we should ignore Hitler. Why adopt that discredited phrase, whose own authors later disowned it?

During the Cold War, I saw, close hand, the magnificent work that Pat Buchanan accomplished in the administrations of Presidents Nixon and Reagan. Nothing can take that away. But former Presidents Nixon and Reagan didn't change their philosophy when the Cold War was over. It is Buchanan who has changed his philosophy. He should have no expectation that his old allies will join him in that. Those allies, including this one, cannot be expected to endorse ideas they fought against. Nor should they be expected to give up their political party that has been so idealistic and successful in world affairs.

Republican conservatives are dedicated to the opposition of all forms of totalitarianism: communism, Nazism, fascism, Khomeinism, Saddamism, Milocevicism or any other force that opposes liberty. Buchanan often cites the advocacy of George Washington and other Founders rejecting foreign entanglements. We all would have rejected foreign entanglements in those days. Such isolationism was a prudential decision -- it was the best one available under the circumstances of nothing more complex than the geography and the technology of two centuries ago when very large oceans left us isolated.

But during the 20th century, America's objectives expanded because the barriers once created by oceans diminished. Now jets cross the oceans in hours. Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles can cross the oceans in minutes, and communications move across the oceans in milliseconds. These powerful facts mean that our national interest is affected deeply by events abroad.

I know that Buchanan believes his new book is being misinterpreted by those who haven't read it. But I read it. He is a masterful writer, conveying his beliefs to his readers with alacrity. To those who have read it and disagree with his conclusions, Buchanan has said that criticism is being leveled by those who feel he has hurt the Republican Party by his recent remarks regarding the party, and by his decision to pursue the Reform Party nomination announced yesterday. But the release of his book and his harsh statements regarding the Republican Party, as well as his decision yesterday, have all come about during the same short span of time, and can't help but be put together -- not one because of the other, but because one and the other were placed on the same calendar by his publisher, and by Buchanan, himself.

There is no joy in any of this.

I prefer to remember Pat Buchanan as the Republican conservative he was during the 1960s, and the 1970s, and the 1980s.

You did too grand a job in those days, Pat Buchanan, for me to reject those ideals for which you and millions of other Republican conservatives fought so hard to accomplish. You may want to redefine conservatism, but you can't. It is what it is. Just as I don't want the current president to attempt to reinvent government, I don't want any presidential aspirant to attempt to redefine conservatism. Although you have written your analysis of foreign policy, past, present, and future, Republican conservatives will continue to be a force for liberty as we see that objective to be right, quoting often those things you used to say.

Bruce Herschensohn is a Distinguished Fellow of the Claremont Institute.
All pages copyright © 1999 The Claremont Institute
 
And in the tradition of Reagan and the Pat Buchanan of the Cold War Era, how many "Republican conservatives" are there?

Bob Barr, and....
 
I agree, Cactus. I would have added the qualifier, "vast" in front of majority. Dennis, what would your opinion of Bob Smith be if he rejoined the GOP? You can't say that he isn't on our side. How would you interpret such a move? The official Republican positions on gun control remain staunchly conservative. Check out the Senate and House Republican web sites if your don't believe me. I agree, Dennis, that there is a lot of house cleaning to be done. Let's clean up the house, not burn it down.
 
The article is just more horsepuckey designed to destroy Pat Bucannon. Why destroy him? So you don't vote for him, THAT'S WHY!! And that's exactly why you should! Because the power brokers don't want him is why you should. But then why not let him rise or fall on the strenght of his ideas intead of bashing him? Maybe, just maybe he has a message, an idea that could bring alot of diverse groups together. God forbid if that were to happen! It would upset the current power balance and possibly make politicians address the concerns of the American people. We don't want "unity" do we? We want to keep neatly deviding Americans by a two party system, don't we?
 
Cactus,

I may have found the problem between us. You consider Republicans to be conservative if they only want to outlaw half the guns in America, make only half of our population felons, and register and/or confiscate only half of the privately owned firearms in America. Oh, and we only do it half a decade away instead of right now.....
 
Bob Smith is not a Republican - neither is Ron Paul.

If the Republicans are so conservative, how did Clinton survive impeachment? How do gun laws get passed, etc.?

I hear this constant diatribe about conservative Republicans - what are they doing in the Democrat camp???

To say the vast majority of Republicans are conservative is to re-define the term in Democratic PC-approved manner.

A conservative let's us alone unless there's a problem.

If you want to see conservative, go to:
www.lp.org
 
Dennis,
I really am curious to know your response to my questions to you on Bob Smith. (DC's opinion would be interesting too.) How would you interpret a return to the GOP by Bob Smith? Would he be a traitor? Would you trust him less? Would the whole move be politically insignificant? Please don't avoid the question by saying it will never happen.
Regards,
MLT
 
What difference would it make? I wouldn't think any more the the Republican wing of the Dem/Rep party that I do now?

As has been expressed by numerous TFLers, it is the candidate - not the party that counts. The only reason I call the Republicans faux Democrats is because of their leadership and the "vast majority" of their votes.

Are there conservatives in the Republican Party? Sure! There also are honest life insurance salemen! But taken as a group - Thhrrrrrrpt to both groups!
 
Any body catch Orlin Hatch on Hanady and Colmbs last night? He let it be known in no uncertain terms that to monkey with the 2nd amendment was the first step to loosing all of our rights. A very pleasant surprise to hear his views
 
That "vast majority" of conservative Republicans increased taxes, increased the size of government, increased gun control, passed a law requiring biological identifiers on licenses, backed the president in who knows how many armed forays into foreign lands where our national interests were at best minimal, and increased governmental intrusion into our private lives. And that's just since '94.

That's the Republican idea of conservative? Sounds like somebody better redefine it. Fast. If there truly was a simple majority of conservatives in congress, none of the bs I just mentioned would have happened, and there's lots more bs I didn't mention. True conservatives should be fleeing the sinking Republican ship before they're dragged under.

I'm no Buchanon fan, I'm not a big Smith fan, either, for some of their stances other than gun control. If either Smith or Buchanon return to the Republicans it will be because Smith or Buchanon has changed, not because the Republicans have. There is no reason for Buchanon or Smith to return, especially given the treatment Buchanon has received at the hands of the party he used to champion so tirelessly.

You let me know when the "vast majority" of conservatives repeals a single gun control law.

------------------
"...the probability of the people in power being individuals who would dislike the possession and exercise of power is on a level with the probability that an extremely tender-hearted person would get the job of whipping-master in a slave plantation."
Prof. Frank H. Knight
 
Gale,

He actually said that?

Wasn't he one that was instumental in passing the "Juvenile Crime bill"?

I've heard he waffles a lot on the 2nd Amendment issue.

Maybe your answer can help establish some facts about him.

------------------
John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
Hatch is no conservative and no friend of Any of our rights. I will not elaborate on some of the things hatch has been involved in but I will tell you this. Renos opponent in the 1988 election in Florida gave hatch much evidence on Renos character(la`ck of) when she was Clintons nominee for attorney general. Hatch ignored evidence of Renos criminal activities in Florida and she got clear sailing as our attorney general. Clinton is no dummy boys. He got a attorney general as dirty as ,he is and one who would never question anything he did. Senator Hatch let it happen. Pat is right on the money about the republican Party and its plutocratic tendencies and anti nationalist positions. Klinton, the greatest and only anti-American President of all time, has gotten a FREE RIDE to rule as a King by a Republican dominated Congress. I w as once a lifelong Republican,but it is time for the Republican AND Democratic parties to go the way of the Whigs into the trash bin of history. New parties are needed and MUCH REFORM. I love the feeling of Rebellion that is in the air! I hope it doesnt die or is sabatoged by such as Donald Tramp.
 
I used to think that the Democrats were the enemy with all their proposals nationally and locally to ban guns, etc...
Now I know that the Republicans, who fought off the gun show bans, made concealed carry legal in Texas, and laws to stop lawsuits against gun companies in some states-now they are the Real enemy!!!
Sorry if I was confused...
 
I'm glad we could straighten you out, nebob. ;)

If you think that by substituting one form of gun control for another the Republicans have helped us, then yes, they are your friends. If, however, you believe that all gun control is immoral and unconstitutional, then I think you would have a tough time supporting the Republicans.

------------------
"...the probability of the people in power being individuals who would dislike the possession and exercise of power is on a level with the probability that an extremely tender-hearted person would get the job of whipping-master in a slave plantation."
Prof. Frank H. Knight
 
If you think I am for any gun control, except to keep criminals, kids, and goofballs from getting something, you are very wrong.
If you want to convert people to third candidates, establish the facts how the race will we really won (not just in your imagination) and how an outsider will actually be able to do something.
Then you will start to make a difference.
But if you keep insulting people telling them
that they must be for gun control if they are republican is goofy.
The only thing I agree with you third party guys is that Shiner Bock makes real good beer!
 
I'm a new member of TFL, but I've been reading you guys for a while.

This thread was too juicy for me to pass up. I think that Pat can be a catalyst for change in our government, just as Perot was for the '94' elections. There is a great deal of time left before the Presidential elections, and if Pat is allowed to debate, I think that you will see a significant swing in the polls towards him and his ideals. This might just be the impetus that the Republicans need to move away from the "safe centerist" philosophy, and move to where the core of our country is at.

If the polls show support for Pat's ideas, then you will see the GW campaign turn to the right at the next whistle stop.

GW has to be convinced that the way to win is to go back to the conservative ideals that gave us the "Regan Revolution".

This country is much more conservative than the media gives us credit for. I think that Pat will be quite persuasive in proving that.

I don't like some of Pat's policy, but then again, I don't like some of most every candidate's policy's, outside of Alan Keys, and even then, I'm sure I would disagree with something that he would propose in the future.

Alan Keys, and Pat Buchanan are not going to be elected. Will they be an important part of this election process? I pray to God that they will be.

------------------
jones
 
Nebob,

Roger on the Shiner Bock! I really DO like that beer! (Who’d have
guessed! :D :D )

Firmly held beliefs and passionate expression sometimes lead to strong
rhetoric, so (breathing slowly and deeply) let me try again.

In no way do I believe you want confiscatory gun control. So let’s set
that aside.

Bush, however, has stated quite clearly that he IS for gun control.
For example, in the article
Bush now endorsing “reasonable” gun control measures
by Terry Neal and Ben White, Washington Post
(San Antonio Express-News, 8/28/99 pp 1A, 9A)
Bush advocates:
- raising the age for gun ownership from 18 to 21;
- banning certain high-caliber ammunition clips (whatever THAT means);
- closing the so-called loophole allowing unlicensed dealers to sell guns at
gun shows without background checks for purchasers
- FBI background check for all purchasers of firearms.

Bush quotes include:
- “I support them all (Republican gun control proposals); they all are
reasonable measures”
- (We need to) “have reasonable laws to keep the guns out of the hands
of people who shouldn’t have them. That’s why I support instant
background checks.”
- “When we find someone illegally selling a gun, there should be a
consequence.”

We hashed this out on 8/28/99.
http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=23829

So it is clear that Bush does support gun control.
True, it is not the radical gun control of the Democrats - but the
Republican gun control proposals still infringe on the Second
Amendment. Bush supports, even *advocates* these unconstitutional
(but “moderate”) Republican gun control proposals.

That is NOT goofy. It is fact. And if the truth hurts the Republicans’
feelings, then they should change their ways.

It’s a shame that Republicans support gun control; but there is no use
lying about it or saying Bush is our gun rights savior merely because his
gun control measures are less radical than Gore’s, Bradley’s et al.)
-------

As to making a difference:

Continuing to vote for moderate gun control will continue to give us gun
control. Therefore, many of us are striving to show we do not agree with
unconstitutional laws - whether it’s gun control, illegal search and
seizure, immoral teachings in our schools, or other infringements
destroying our American way of life.

The two major parties work together (through intent or by mere chance)
to violate the very concepts that our Founding Fathers created to protect
us. Gun laws and directives are a vivid sign that our government intends
to seize ever-increasing control over our lives and (in some cases) our
very existence.

I understand the concept that a third party candidate is not “viable”. :D
But to support the two major parties is to support their unconstitutional
laws. I no longer can vote in total opposition to our Constitution,
(disregarding the intent of our Founding Fathers) and in violation of all
that I hold dear.

Furthermore, a third party candidate could and would become President if
only the gun owners of America would vote pro-gun rather than pro-gun
control. Good Lord, there are some 80 million of us! If we merely would
stand up and vote for what we know to be right - we’d win by the
greatest landslide ever seen in America.

But even if a third party has NO chance, we who love freedom - gun
ownership included - must do something to fight this Mutt and Jeff, Good
Cop-Bad Cop collusion of the two major parties. In spite of their public
“pillow fights”, in spite of their rhetoric and posturing, the Democrats and
Republicans are “compromising” away our Bill of Rights. They violate our
Constitution, disregard our laws, and act like petty kings ruling us as
subjects. It must stop.

We may not win the race this time. But races are not won by sitting on
the sidelines and rooting for other participants in the race. To win a
race, you must join the race. And that’s what we’re trying to do. We are
trying to show that destroying our Bill of Rights is not “viable”. ;)

Therefore we fight for freedom with our words and our votes. If this
causes discomforts Republicans that’s just too bad. We former
Republicans who have joined the Libertarian, Reform, or other “third
parties” did not leave the Republican Party! The Republican Part left us!

It is not for Buchanan to rejoin the Republican Party! It is for the
Republican Party to desert the Democrats and become Republicans again!

Even if a third party candidate is NOT “viable” at the moment (and I do
NOT agree with that concept), we must show the Democrats and
(especially) the Republicans that we have recognized their intent to
“Europeanize” America - and we say, “NO!”

Gun owners never will have ANY influence if we continue to vote for
Republicans who advocate gun control.


It’s time for a change. Join us.

Stick it to ‘em! RKBA!

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited November 01, 1999).]
 
Just to add a few facts to the discussion. I have been reading Our United States Presidents. It goes only thru RR. However, if we look at the record, third party candidates have always turned gummint over to the liberal dumocratic party .

Lessee,
Bull Moose [1912] party turned gum't over to Wilson, a stalwart conservative who brought great prosperity and peace to our nation... ;)

You all remember the 'lil feller', turned the gum't over to Willie. There are some more in between, but I think you get the idea...

Our biggest weapon is time. If we get a rep in there, we may be able to extend our rights. If we get a lib, not only the rkba will be affected. Those
------------------
We don't have a chaplain here, but I don't view that as any major problem... You can rest assured that you will not go in that bag until I've said a few appropriate words over you
R. Lee Ermy as Sgt Major Haffner, from The Siege of Firebase Gloria

[This message has been edited by BigG (edited November 01, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by BigG (edited November 01, 1999).]
 
nebob, reread my post. You'll find that I never said that you were for gun control. I merely pointed out that the Republicans have helped to pass all of the gun control we now face. That is fact. GWB has publicly announced his support for more gun control. That is fact. The Republican Congressional leadership has offered gun control as a substitute for the Democrats gun control legislation. That is fact.

So, I repeat, if you believe gun control is immoral and unconsitutional (and I think you do, nebob) then you should find it difficult to support the Republicans.

The Republicans, as a party, are no friends of gun owners, no matter what the media says.

I'm not trying to tell you how to win an election; I never have. I'm trying to get folks who are on my side to quit aiding the enemy.



------------------
"In many ways we are treated quite like men." Erich Maria Remarque
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top