Yet more bear-gun questions -- sorry everyone

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Thank you all for the amount of time you took to help me out. Obviously protecting my clients is important to me, thank you!

But makarov -- I've a bone to pick with you. You snowboard, yes? So does that mean you carry a avalanche shovel AND a probe at the same time? I hope so! For that matter, you had best get a snow saw for checking conditions. You see, my idea of having two rifles is in the name of preparedness. Now of course both rifles would not be on *me* at the same time. I would have the "boomer" slung on my shoulder (yes, it can be done with a pack on), and the .22 on the pack of another. Climbing sure is great, isn't it? :)

Dr. Rob, like I said above, the rifle wouldn't really be lashed to my pack. :)

Cliff, over the next few years, the country I will be in -- I could encounter anything from the black bear to the polar bear. Yes...seriously. But for this season, I will only be in black bear country.

I am not going out to hunt intentionally. I just would like to be able to take a bear quickly and cleanly should I have to. The idea of having to take more than one shot does not appeal to me. This is the reason I brought the Ruger 375 up in the first place. Sure, it might be a bit much, but since when does that matter when a bear is charging your friend? The other reason that I would like to carry a rifle when guiding is a "peace of mind" issue for the clients. They all know that the places where the climbs are is bear country, so they would feel more comfy if they saw the guide (me) with a large rifle (and knew that he knew how to use it). To be honest, I am more afraid of being ill-prepared than meeting a bear.

These "bear-gun" threads always do seem to draw a crowd! I have heard everything from "eschew the rifle and use bear-pepper" to "buy a Marlin and use my ammo." :) But really, thank you very much for the suggestions! I don't know what I would do w/out you guys. :) Have a good one!


Hueco
 
Mr. Garrett, I have heard a lot about your products both from you and from your site. You speak very confidently of them. The claimed ballistics are very impressive. In further reading of your site, I am curious about a few things. First, since your bullets are lead, do they deform or expand? Second, you have compared your 45-70 to the 375 H&H both on this forum and on your site. But how would either of your 45-70 loads compare to a similarly loaded 458 Win Mag? The reason I ask is that 458 cartridges are consistently more expensive than your cartridges. How do they compare in penetration tests? Thanks for any info you can give me. Looks like you have some good products! Take it easy!


Hueco
 
Hueco,

Our silver-enriched SUPER-HARD-CAST bullets are extremely hard at 25-Brinnell, and can be considered to be non-expanding at the velocities we load to, even when impacted into the toughest game at point-blank range.

Regarding how our 45-70 530-grain load compares to the 458 Winchester Magnum with its various factory loads is a very interesting topic. Obviously, the 458 generates considerably more power. However, the advantages of the lever-gun regarding its ability to function with blunt flatnose bullet are extremely significant. Bolt-action rifles almost universally will not reliably transit blunt bullets from the magazine to the chamber. They tend to hang up, which is intolerable any time, and especially when shooting dangerous game. Consequently, when more penetration than expanding bullets will provide is needed, the inevitable choice is the roundnose solid for those shooting 458 bolt-action guns. Roundnose solids penetrate very well, but they are notorious for their lack of fast incapacitation, and fast incapacitation is essential in a dangerous game stopping rifle. By contrast, 45-70 lever-guns are fully capable of reliably transiting the bluntest bullets from the magazine to the chamber without a hitch. This provides a huge advantage, and allows the 45-70 lever-action gun to deliver proper super-blunt hard-cast bullets that far out-penetrate 458 expanding bullets and provide dramatically superior incapacitation effect when compared to roundnose solids from any caliber.

Most people assume that the 458 with expanding 500-grain bullets provides good penetration. In fact, they do not. Indeed, our 44 Magnum ammo out-penetrates the 500-grain expanders from the 458! So if a guy wants a 458 load capable of shooting from one end of a big coastal grizzly to the other end, he can only achieve it when using roundnose solids. By contrast, our 530-grain 45-70 load will shoot from one end to the other on the biggest bears with a dramatically blunt SUPER-HARD-CAST bullet, which is much quicker to incapacitate than any roundnose solid.

This is a classic example of why people should not worship at the alter of power generation. Impact-effect is all that matters, and impact effect is predominately the product of bullet diameter, size of frontal area, and depth of penetration. Also, the 45-70 delivers less recoil than the 458, and consequently allows for faster follow-up shots should they be required. Lever-actions are also easier for most people to fire quickly due to the simply nature of the action.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com
 
Thanks Mr. Garrett! I will have to check out some rifles chambered for the 45-70 soon.


Hueco

[This message has been edited by Hueco (edited March 03, 2000).]
 
Hi Hueco-

I recommend the Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 with some Garrett 530gr bullets- you get a light, maoeuverable gun with reasonable recoil, and the best bear cartridge there is.

Best of luck and be safe.
 
Mr. Garrett are there any .45LC+P or .454Casull loadings in your companies future? Guess I overlooked e-mail on your web-page.

Thanks,
DaHaMac
 
DaHaMac:

Although we would like to offer something for the 45 Colt and 454 Casull, we have not been able to find a custom cutter of mold blocks that performs to our standards. Previously, our blocks were all cut by the best mold block cutters ever to grace the industry, Hensley & Gibbs, but they closed their business last year. Until we find someone to fill their shoes, we will have to pass on offering new loadings, as there quite simply aren't any commercial castings out there that we like enough to offer, and the mold block cutters we contacted just aren't as serious about quality as we are.
If things change, we will be prompt in reporting that on TFL.
www.garrettcartridges.com
 
Hueco. I have a Ruger#1H in.375 H&H. For me it is a fun gun. There was an article in an old RIFLE magazine on speed loading the #1 single shot. I don't know it it would be available as a back issue or not. let me know, and I'll look up the date ans issue number for you. I got pretty fast reloading my #1's, but I don't know as if I'd want to tackle "Brer Griz" with one. Especially is he is charging. I seriously doubt I could get off that second shot, it is was needed. Probably would be shaking to damn bad.
I also have a Marlin 1895 New Model, the first version. This is the one I would take.
Fact is, I cobbled up some loads with a 500 gr. cast bullet of wheel weights. I loaned the rifle to a friend who was hunting in the black timber of Idaho, somewhere near the Salmon River. He got a shot, (one only) at a fairly large bull elk at about 25 yards as it was going away. The bullet struck just under the tail and stopped, leaving a bulge, at the bulls chest. That bullet not only penetrated the full length of a bull elk, it literally stopped him cold. When the bullet hit, the elk planted his feet in a solid stop, shivered violently, and dropped. The bulley, which I now have in my possesion, was so indeformed, that I could probably reuse it. The only marks are from the rifling of the barrel. Oh yes. Yje Marlin weighs about 2 pounds less than the Ruger. The Guide Gun should be even lighter.
Another point, if only psychological to the people you will be guiding, the 45-70 has a lot bigger hole in the front.
I have not used Randy Garrett's ammo, as I load my own, but his ammo works as well as mine or better. Probably better.
JMHO.
Paul B.
 
The 45-70 Garrett (530 gr version) without a doubt by a very large margin.

If it came to that, I would not be ready to trust my life against a bear on a 12g w/ slugs - imho of course.
 
When the subject is what is best deployed as a dangerous game stopper, versatility is irrelevant. Although the 12 guage with slugs is a formidable stopper of medium size game, it is definitely lacking in deep penetration, providing about one sixth the penetration of proper hard-cast bullets in the 45-70 when impacted into materials which approximate the resistance of muscle, and do even less well when impacted into heavy bone. Since big bears are quite tough and heavy boned, much penetration is required, something beyond the domain of the shotgun. Also, most repeating 12 guage shotguns, even ones with short barrels, are considerably bigger and heavier than the Guide Gun. The short-barreled 45-70 lever-gun loaded with proper hard-cast bullets is an extraordinary short to medium range dangerous game hammer, the shotgun definitely is not.
www.garrettcartridges.com
 
I agree with Mr. Garrett, when your life is at stake against an animal such as the bear -- versatility means nothing. That is unless you expect to run into everything from very small bears to rabid turkeys. :) I wouldn't run out there with a 12 gauge, even with max loaded slugs. For me, the question isn't between a rifle and shotgun -- it is among the 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag, and Guide Gun with Garrett loads. The 458 does not have the performance compared to Garrett loads, so it is all but ruled out.


Hueco
 
Hueco; Fishing guides in alaska carry 12 gauge pumps with slugs. I think maybe there're the experts. If I was staring down a "large" bear I'd want my rem 870 HD with slugs. Don't you want something that will cycle fast? Bolt action rifles are the slowest of all actions. A marlin 45-70 is fairly fast to cycle if you can afford the ammo. Short barreled shotguns are inexpensive, portable, very fast too cycle, cheap ammo and very powerful with the right ammo. Good Luck, j.s.
 
hmm.a pepper spray for a big bear?may be for you but not for me.i belive in keeping a great distance between me and my attacker rather it be man or beast.i like both suggestions of the 12 gauge and the guide gun.the twelve gauge offers the user the advantage of hunting small game such as birds or small prey.with brenneke slug its probably going to do the trick on the mean ole bear too.however the guide gun seems like the more reasonable choice due to the fact it is much lighter and the profile is much smaller.4570 ammo is also much lighter in weight and one can tote alot more with him.be sure to replace that ridiculos sight that the marlin comes with with a good ghoast ring.ed
 
Sure, I'd like to have a .45-70 on me if attacked, but let's look at reality here. Look at how fast Keith was attacked out of nowhere - he did not have time to deploy his gun, and he's not even sure he would have had time to use a faster-deploying gun such as a Guide Gun. The bear was on him like a hobo on a ham sandwich. When you're actually being mauled, I would want a BIG vial of pepper spray stuck on my belt - you would have a much greater chance of grabbing it and using it while being mauled than you would a rifle, because of the necessity of pointing the rifle accurately before it's effective, and the experts agree the pepper spray is almost always effective in turning a bear back. If I can spot a charging bear at a great distance, then many different rifles would do the trick, esp. quick repeaters or semi-autos - if you have time, you want to pump as many rounds a possible into the bear. But the point is you won't have any time, because a bear is most likely to attack you when you've surprised it, in which case it is right there on you. If you can send one .45-70 shot, more power to you, but at very close range, the more likely scenario give me some OC spray.
 
[well looks like i opened a can of worms here.i am sorry but i dont see your point.assuming that the hunter or guide is a expereined hunter or rifleman.(these are becoming a rare comodity these days)he can deploy his rifle from the african carry position(muzzle down weak side)and hit a 6 inch target at up 50 yards in less than 1.5 seconds.if you say it cant be done ill find 18 shooters at gunsite that just took the masters rifle class that will prove it to you.if the ranges are closer (say 15 yards)that time can be cut in half.it is even faster if the rifle is at the ready (stock in the hip and muzzle at eye level)pepper spray even in a foam mist or nozzle style must be aimed plus you must first ck to see that the nozzle is pointed in the correct direction.(at least this is what they were teaching when i took my state carry class for o.c devices)This takes conciderably more time than the rifle does from the african carry position therefore i stand behind my statment that the rifle is the better choice when one does have a choice.if i were backpacking in a park or federal land that prohibits the use of a gun then the pepper spray would be the next logical choice but where they dont let me carry a rifle i dont go, see ya ed
 
ps who are these experts that recommend pepper spray for bears and where can i get some actual accounts where pepperspray has stopped a real bear attack in the wilderness?i think this topic needs to be explored before someone really gets hurt <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Futo Inu:
Sure, I'd like to have a .45-70 on me if attacked, but let's look at reality here. Look at how fast Keith was attacked out of nowhere - he did not have time to deploy his gun, and he's not even sure he would have had time to use a faster-deploying gun such as a Guide Gun. The bear was on him like a hobo on a ham sandwich. When you're actually being mauled, I would want a BIG vial of pepper spray stuck on my belt - you would have a much greater chance of grabbing it and using it while being mauled than you would a rifle, because of the necessity of pointing the rifle accurately before it's effective, and the experts agree the pepper spray is almost always effective in turning a bear back. If I can spot a charging bear at a great distance, then many different rifles would do the trick, esp. quick repeaters or semi-autos - if you have time, you want to pump as many rounds a possible into the bear. But the point is you won't have any time, because a bear is most likely to attack you when you've surprised it, in which case it is right there on you. If you can send one .45-70 shot, more power to you, but at very close range, the more likely scenario give me some OC spray.[/quote]
 
Once while riding a bicycle, I had a pack of dogs after me, I pepper sprayed their leader (a big pit bull) directly in the face. As far as I could tell, he thought that I was just adding seasoning to his lunch. If pepper spray puts a charging bear off then why not a .22 or a starter pistol? When going into the backcountry, what % of the danger comes from bear attack? A shotgun can be used as a flare gun, for taking small gane, shooting snakes, ect. Is there anywhere in the world where you can't find 12ga shells? "45/70 ammo is also much lighter in weight and one can tote alot more with him". Well if you expect that many bears to attack you... you need to stay home! :)

[This message has been edited by Tony III (edited March 08, 2000).]
 
Tony III:

The question wasn't, what is the chance of being attacked by a bear, but what is a proper choice for protection from bear attack. You may feel properly armed with a 22 rimfire for such purposes, but that is a pretty tough case to make! Certainly a shotgun is a better choice than a 22 rimfire, but certainly not as good as a properly loaded 45-70. You suggest that the shotgun is a better choice because ammo can be found anywhere. Well, most of us would make sure we had ammo before we took our gun of choice into the woods, and obviously once there, ammo will be completely unavailable for purchase regardless of the caliber or gauge! One more thing, do you really believe it is necessary to shoot snakes? I have no love of snakes, and if one wants to shoot them, I have no complaint. However, I have never come into close contact with a snake that I couldn't avoid simply by walking around him. Obviously, a bear presents a different challenge. However, to each his own.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com
 
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