Yet more bear-gun questions -- sorry everyone

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Hueco

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I know that this forum is innundated with bear-gun questions, but I just want to be sure of my choice. This spring/summer I plan to do some extensive venturing into the back-woods to do some climbing. My concern is not only for me, but I will most likely be doing some guiding as well. So I not only have to watch out for me, but all in my party. Now, my question is -- what to buy? What action is preferred? What calibre? The terrain I would encounter will range from open country to super-thick brush/thicket. Weight is not an issue at all -- I will already have a 50+ lb pack on (and it will stay on should I see a bear!). As some of you know, the current rifle I am looking at is the Ruger #1H in 375 H&H. But I was not looking at that rifle with the consideration of bears. Is it a good choice anyway? Or should I go with the Marlin Guide Gun? On that note, with handloaded cartridges, what is the highest velocity/engery attainable that could be shot with the Marlin? What are the ballistics of a super-hot 45-70? To change the subject slightly, where can I get information om general bear-protection such as tactics, aim, etc? I have heard of someone on this board that has a "Bear Maulings" website. I would love to take a look at it -- I have heard nothing but good about it. Also, I should mention that since I am only 18, a backup sidearm is illegal, and thus out of the picture. Any other information you could pass along that you think could be of help to me would be much appreciated. Thank you!!


Hueco
 
You can't go wrong with a 375 but it is a little bigger than necessary Take a look at the 338W. it is much more sensible than a 45/70. When I lived in Alaska I never thought my 300Win Mag was inadequate till I weighed the stakes and went to a 35/300Win Mag. I never lost another minutes sleep!
 
what are you going to carry for rattlesnakes?
much more likely of a threat...

go out to the woods, wanting to find a bear and you will never see one

at least thats what happens to me during bear season!

;)

dZ
 
Thanks guys! Snakes, well they will not be so much of an issue. In snake infested foliage, I will have some hefty Cordura chaps and some whopping hiking boots. Plus, there will be a lovely Marlin 99 auto .22 straped to my pack -- with easy, quick access. :) Love that gun -- accurate, reliable...just perfect!! Oh, you say the 375 is a bit overkill? Then by all means that is the rifle for me. :) I want the Ruger anyway, so I will probably still grab it one day. Thank you again guys, I appreciate it.


Hueco
 
Nothing beats a nearby friend with a rifle for keeping you safe. This applies to other dangerous critters too.
 
A friend and co-worker takes about two fishing trips a year to Alaska, he told me that most of the Professional Guides there carry the 338W.
Perhaps someone from Alaska can confirm this.
Good hunting. :)

------------------
"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by No4Mk1*:
Nothing beats a nearby friend with a rifle for keeping you safe. This applies to other dangerous critters too.[/quote]

Maybe I will hand the Marlin .22 off to a partner...good suggestion!! Thanks!!


Hueco



[This message has been edited by Hueco (edited March 01, 2000).]
 
Hueco,

You can't beat a Guide Gun in 45-70 for bear protection. It is light, short, and delivers a blow all out of proportion to its apparent ballistics. Comparing it to the 375 Holland & Holland is instructive. Compared to the 375, the 45-70 lever-gun, with our 530-grainer, delivers 50% more penetration than the 375 does with roundnose solids. This is most significant as our 530-grainer is much larger in diameter, and sports an ultra blunt .360-inch meplat, which is vastly more effective than any roundnose design for quick incapacitation. The various bolt-action rifles generally will not reliably transit blunt bullets from the magazine to the chamber, as they tend to hang up, something completely intolerable with a dangerous game rifle. The various lever-action rifles transit their cartridges in a manner that allows the use of the bluntest nose cartridges. Although I don't consider "power" to be nearly as significant where killing effect is concern as tissue destruction, the 45-70 with ammo such as our's delivers as big a Taylor Knockout Value at 130-yds as the 375 does at the muzzle with 300-grain bullets. The 45-70 offers much deeper penetration with much blunter bullets than the 375, and is generally easier for most shooters to deploy quickly due to its lever-action design than bolt-action guns. No wonder Jeff Cooper considers it to be the best for close-quarter bear defense, as does the National Marine Fisheries Service in Homer, AK, who deploys the Guide Gun with our ammo for protecting their personnel from coastal grizzly attack.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com
 
Keith Rogan is the man with the bear maullings page. He has quite a bit of good information on it. Sorry but I lost the url for it. Maybe someone else has it.
 
You are better off (in the lower 48) with bear sprays than a firearm carried in the manner you suggest.

A heavy hitting caliber weapon of any type needs to be carried where you can get to it. Velcroed to your pack doesn't sound fast handling.

However if you are camping overnight a 12 guage shotgun full of slugs can easily occupy the tent with you, and the wieght of a 4 shot 12 guage is far less than most rifles in heavy calibers.

And you should NEVER go into the woods alone, especially for something like Rock Climbing.

read over the bear maulings page carefully, lots of good info there.

Dr.Rob
 
I'd also suggesting in a good canine companion to have along. I've been researching this also because my future hopefully includes field research in MT. The dog I plan on getting is the Rhodesian Ridgeback...you can check it out at http://rrcus.org/

Spencer Stewart
Adapt, migrate, or die.
 
Would second the 45-70 or 12 ga with proper slugs, Garrett has some awesome loads all ready to go so you dont have to handload if you are not set up with the stuff. All the factory stuff is pretty light. I like the No 1 in 45-70 but you better hit it as the follow up is a little slow. I think the guide gun would be great.
 
Hueco - You didn't state where you will be hiking / guiding and what kind of bear(s) you are concerned about. If you are HUNTING bear, I defer to the high power rifles already mentioned.

If your concern is a sudden encounter, I have a couple of suggestions:

1) If you haven't already done so, read up on the critters. Black and brown bears have different temperaments. Two books I recommend are "Backcountry Bear Basics" by Dave Smith and "Bear Attacks - Their Causes and Avoidance" by Stephen Herrero.

2) A 12 GA. shotgun, loaded with 2 rounds of birdshot, followed by slugs. The bird shot will help the bear get "religion" and the slugs can put him down... if necessary. Aim for the torso and not the head.

That being said, if you are traveling in a group make lots of noise and your chances of a surprise encounter will be drastically reduced. Look for fresh scat, and fur on low hanging branches and the color of that fur. If it's the berry season, be especially alert for foraging bears.

The wife and I like to vacation and hike in Alaska. Our son is a river guide there. One time he was charged, several times, by a brown bear. He was unarmed, and finally smacked it in the face with his mountain bike. :)

Cliff
 
You're going to carry a Ruger #1 AND a Marlin strapped to the pack - Only someone who was 18 would even think of this (young and dumb and full of...8^) Seriously though, you didn't mention where you were going into the backcountry. I have done a lot of hiking and rock climbing in Washington, Oregon and Idaho and never had any problem with bears. People's fears sometimes are out of alignment with reality. The truth is that you are safer in the back country than driving in your car or walking down the street in just about any American city. You should read the bear mauling site - I looked at it a couple of weeks ago. This guy has actually had a close encounter and reccommends pepper spray specially formulated for bears. It is easy to carry and deploy. He is located in Alaska and was attacked by a mother Grizzly. Where I live we don't have Grizzlies and the black bears are well fed and will run from people. Usually you never see the bear since they smell you coming and take off. Cougar attacks are also very rare. I read in the paper that there have only been something like 10 in the last 85 years (none fatal) in Washington. Though 6 or 7 were in the last 15 years. More and more people moving out into the cougar habitat. I still don't worry about them though.

Take care of yourself outdoors - the smart thing to do is think ahead - hoist your food well out on a limb away from camp - keep your camp clean. You won't have any problems.

- Good Luck.
 
It is entirely reasonable to discuss which firearms and ammunition products are appropriate for defense from bear attack. The question isn't how likely is it for an attack to occur, but what armament is most appropriate if an attack does occur. Just as it is a personal choice whether to carry a concealed firearm for self defense in the city, it is also a personal choice how to respond to the threats that exist in the wilderness. Certainly on any given occasion, a bear attack is extremely unlikely, however they do occur. Keith Rogan can tell you all about his experience, and he wasn't violating any of the standard recommendations appropriate for bear country (you will notice that his first choice for a defensive bear gun is a properly loaded 45-70 Guide Gun).

A couple years back while hunting elk on the Olympic Peninsula I came into close contact with an angry black bear that I very nearly had to shoot. It didn't matter to him one bit that black bears are usually not inclined to present a threat. It is always prudent to follow common sense when in the wilderness, but lets not assume that such practices will always suffice to make us safe.
www.garrettcartridges.com
 
There was an article in an old OUTDOOR LIFE magazine about bears and bear attacks. Seem that at the time, and I see no reason to think there has been much change, that 99 times out of 100, a Black Bear will run away. The problem was, the author stated, was if it was the bears 100th encounter with a human. I don't think he was trying to be funny. I may even still have that copy somewhere.
Another point he brought out was there were more attacks on humans by Black Bears than all the Grizzly, Alaskan Brown and Polar Bears combined. I would imagine that is because, partially anyway, there are more Black Bears than the others combined.
Anyway, when I hike in bear country, I have one of my .44 Mags on hand. I may never have to use it, but I'm glad it is there.
Paul B.
 
Hueco, if you're intending to hunt bears go with the 375, for bear defense a lever gun in 45/70 is much better, Personally I'd just take a 12 guage & leave the big game rifle & the .22 at home.

My advise is to get a registered short barreled shotgun (14") with a short pull speedfeed stock, gost ring sights & a tritium front post. A 590 Marinecote would be a good base gun.

Can anyone think of a better back country setup?

BTW who makes the best hard cast shotgun slugs?

Randy, put down the remote control & get to work :)

"Know the stillness of freedom,
Where there is no more striving"
- The Dhamapadah
- Buddha 563-483 B.C.

Tony.

[This message has been edited by Tony III (edited March 03, 2000).]
 
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