Yep-- We should all call 911 and trust all our lives to the police

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Chris D
I have to ask you, what do you think that a nurse could have done for this man with 5 rounds center mass ( I'm assuming all hit center mass, as I've not read the report)? I assume that you believe the administration of CPR may actually help? Well, here is the deal from my point of view.
1. A person with 5 rounds center mass, upon initializing CPR is only going to bleed more out of the holes made in him by the rounds fired at him.
2. Gunshot wounds to the upper torso need to be dressed with occlusive dressings to avoid air entering the lungs or pleural space around the lungs.
3. With this type of multiple injuries, to have any effect on the body, the care giver must provide a replenishment of body fluids, (i.e. IV fluids like Lactated Ringers or Normal Saline) Ideally you should have whole blood, but I do not know of any EMS service which carries any with them. ( or any of duty nurses for that matter)
4. What department does this said nurse work in. Just because a person is a nurse and knows CPR, doesn't mean much for emergency scenes like the one described here. That RN could work in the pediatric nursery for all you know.
5. Also if the heart was penetrated it takes maybe about 15-30 seconds for the body to no longer recieve oxygenated blood and then the person is technically dead.
6. On EMS arrival, 1 of 2 things is going to happne. 1. DOS (Dead on Scene) or 2. They are going to end up working a traumatic cardio/respiratory arrest and maybe save some organs for donation later.

Sad truth but that is the way it is. I know, I work as a paramedic and I've seen it before. I just picked up one the other day, and the only thing we could do is work to try and save some organs for donation and not to mention that this man was shot in front of his family, we did all we could. But it doesn't always turn out like it does in the movies. The officers did the right thing. It's sad that someone had to lose their lives, but hell, you don't point a gun (toy or not) at police officers.

Sorry that this is so long, had to say it though.

MdP

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My Colt .45... Better to have and not need, than to need and not have.
 
Gunsmoke,

I thought it was up to medical people to presume death, not cops.

Yes, those are mortal wounds. But to prevent her from even trying? Come on!!!

How would you feel if it was someone you knew who was prevented treatment, simply not too violate the integrity of the scene.

The only reason the crime scene should be left alone is so the cop(s) involved have the best chance of being cleared. Meen while Mr. Partygoer bleads out.....

Now I'm more scared of the cops if this is standard operating procedure!
 
Chris D,
The answer is a firm "it depends." :D

If a victim displays obvious conditions incompatible with life (e.g. decapitation, rigor mortis, lividity, nothing but "people parts", etc.), ANYone should know not to initiate medical care.

Without being on scene, we can only speculate. I agree it could have been a mistake either way. However, from my experience as an EMT, I've only seen LEOs opt on the side of legal safety. IOW, even if they figure the victim is unsalvagable, they permit medical care to prevent allegations such as we have here.

That may be the situation. For example, if the perp caught a .40 between the eyes (just an example), all of us would agree the fat lady has sung. The cop may have "relented" in an attempt to prevent future controversy.

I would suspect that if there had been ANY perceived chance of the perp surviving, the LEOs would have tried to care for him - if only in an attempt to prevent possible legal charges against the shooter (LEO) and the department.
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Gunsmoke,

As your "extra hands", chuck the 20! Here's ten and a saline, line's full. I'll prep a Ringers for ya and open a handful of occlusive dressings. As you tube him, I'll set the monitor here, leads ready. Then I'll bag him as you read him.

(aside) Do you really think we can fill his "bucket" as fast as he bled out? You work some of the dangedest (mumbles quietly)....
 
Why were the cops on private property, without permission, looking in a backroom window with a flash light? Oh ya, I forgot, cops think they can do anything they damn well please because they have a badge on their chest. What ever happened to the days when a cop would knock on the front door and ask to speak to the owner of the property before snooping around like they owned the place? Tin stars, big guns, small brains = dead citizens.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What ever happened to the days when a cop would knock on the front door and ask to speak to the owner of the property before snooping around like they owned the place?[/quote]

Well, apparently they did "knock on the front door and ask to speak to the owner". It's in the article: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Upon arrival, the officers sought out the owner of the mansion and were told by several costumed partygoers to go to the rear of the residence[/quote]

LawDog
 
And of course you believe the cop, and of course any damn stranger a cop meets can give permission to snoop around on property not their own. **** This shooting stinks. When a room at night is lit on the inside, the windows are just big black mirrors. If the victim saw anything at all outside, it was a bright light, and then a muzzle flash. **** Now cops can come snooping around, peak in the window of your private residence, and if they see you holding your own legal firearm, or a toy, they can blast you through the glass 5 times, no questions asked, because "they felt in danger". **** Well Lawmen, your unwillingness to speak out against your moronic "shoot first, think later" fellow officers is rapidly wearing out the well of good feelings in many of us former police boosters. When I can be shot dead through the window of my house by a lurking cop because he saw my pistol in my hand, it is time to say "enough is enough".
 
Travis I will refrain from what I realy want to say to you because I don't want to have my account banned. But think about what you just said. An officer has no right to defend himself if he feels his life is in danger. Sorry I don't buy that.

He is responding to a call. He sees a figure pointing what appears to be a large forearm at him, and he responds accourdingly. I and any other person on this board would have reacted in the same way. He had no way of knowing that it was a toy. Heck when I looked at the picture of a real one and the toy I guesed wrong on which was which. And the oficer had less than a second to respond. The mans death is a result of his own stupidity. It is sad just as any death is. But the Facts are that he was stupid and he payed the price.

I can't believe people are defeding this idiot for getting himself killed and condeming an officer for acting to preserve his own life so he could go home that night.

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"Knowledge is a destination. Truth, the journey."
 
Boy, it didn't take long for the events to be transformed into something that doesn't match any of the accounts I've read thus far.

"Sneaking and snooping uninvited on private property!" Here's a news flash; if you have 199 of your closest friends over for a little soiree at oh-dark-thirty and my windows are rattling in their panes to the tune of K-tel's Millenium Dance Party next door, then stand by to repel boarders, because the Heat is going to be sneaking, snooping and telling you to turn the friggin' Pioneers on your private property from 11 back down to 9.

Also, now it appears to have morphed into a scenario that has Johnny Law peekin' in windows, looking for someone to shoot, when poor Saint Anthony, in a gay moment of carefree abandon, provided the salve for his itchy trigger finger by supplying this sinister government agent with the excuse he needed to run his Beretta to slidelock into a brightly lit ballroom packed with happy partygoers.

Most versions I've read thus far paint a somewhat different picture. The cops need to be out patrolling for real criminals, so when they get dispatched to a noise complaint, they want to clear the call as rapidly as possible and get back to work, not wait for a couple of happy drunks to fetch the homeowner. Seeing as how the house was packed with wall-to-wall partygoers, walking around to the back yard makes sense. While walking to the rear of the house, Officer Hopper notices a small huddle of three (4? 5?) people in a dimly-lit/darkened room away from the main party.

Now, maybe some of you really don't know what that automatically looks like. For those who don't, I'll spell it out: it starts with a "D" and ends with "rugs". Either A) a couple of friends are doing a couple bumps of meth or smoking a joint or snorting a quick line of coke away from the main party, or B) someone at the party has ordered out and is completing their transaction with the dealer in privacy.

Regardless of the fact that I think the War on the Fourth Amend... er, I mean, "The War on Drugs" is a pointless waste of time and money and a threat to our freedoms, Officer Hopper is expected to at least go through the motions. He apparently decided it was suspicious-looking enough to point his flashlight at. Taken in context, Anthony Lee's admittedly playful, totally innocent, ut-bay ot-nay oo-tay ight-bray action was honestly, understandably, and tragically misinterpreted. I believe this meets the "reasonable man" criteria: any reasonable person in the same circumstance could easily have reached the same conclusion and, out of the righteous instinct for self-preservation, reacted in a like manner. In a forum full of folks who constantly banter about their inviolable right to self-defense and how fast they can draw their Glock1911P792 when "TSHTF", it's unusual to see a man hung, drawn, and quartered for doing just that.

Oh, and lastly, other than the name "Quisling" just having all manner of negative connotations, how come this alleged eye-witness took so long to surface? Does no one else find his statements to the press a smidge disingenuous? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"...And instinctively, I sniffed the air and smelled gun smoke."[/quote]Puh-leeeze!
I've been on the downrange end of fast moving lead before; that sounds a little contrived to me. You know, like when the kid got hit by the car in the school parking lot and somehow the whole student body were eyewitnesses by the end of the week. "Pop, pop, pop, like firecrackers"? If you're close enough to the muzzle to smell the powdersmoke it's gonna sound like the Wrath of God, not "firecrackers". Besides, he wants me to believe he just stood there in a room where live rounds had been flying, watched someone he may or may not know get blown out of his shoes by unknown boogie-men out in the darkness, and just struck a thoughtful pose and "instinctively sniffed the air"? Either this dude has some weird responses to danger or is dumber than an acre of fungus, because the only thing I'd be "instinctively sniffing" if I was in that room would have been the dust bunnies under the nearest substantial piece of furniture. Bear in mind that Mr. Quisling made dang sure that the reporter knew, and mentioned, that he was "an author and filmmaker" (and thereby interested in inking a book or movie contract with someone who has some bucks so he can stop bussing tables at Denny's...) <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Quisling and other guests and neighbors stressed that the Benedict Canyon party was not out of control, but "a highly organized affair." There were hired bartenders, a disc jockey, security guards and shuttle drivers. [/quote] Look, I've been to huge parties with bartenders, bouncers, a DJ & etc where a few guests left in ambulances. Just what in the name of Zeus the fact that they had hired staff at the party is supposed to prove eludes me...

All I'm saying is, before you use this case to flog whatever your current favorite gripe with the system is (and don't get me wrong, I have quite a few myself), make sure this bus is going to your stop.


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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

[This message has been edited by Tamara (edited November 05, 2000).]
 
I thought long and hard about entering this thread, but here goes.

I have been on both sides of the door [party guest/host/private security] in regards to noise compliants. I honestly can't fathom why the officer's would search out the unknown home owner "at the rear of the residence" in a crowded party environment, when the easier and safer alternative is to wait by the door for him /her to come to you.

In this regard the officer's credibilty is somewhat dubious, unless the LAPD has very strange SOP.

The actual shooting has so many factors that we might never fully know, but ultimatley when carrying a gun [replica or real] the burden of responsiblity is upon the carrier, Mr Lee probably thought [rightly or wrongly] since he was on private property and it's Hallowen as well, that his "burden" was nullified.

LEO's can't reasonbly be expected to pick up on someone's thought's or intentions during a high speed/stress incident involving a Desert Eagle.

This isn't stupid this is tragic, for all concerned.

This isn't the first Hallowen/Mistaken identity shooting [remember the Rodney Pears [sp?]/Japanese exchange student shooting] and it won't be the last.

P.S. I've never met any other TFL'ers but I'll bet my last dollar that we agree on way more then we disagree on.
 
Tamara thank you for saying what I didn't have the calm temperment to type out.

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"Knowledge is a destination. Truth, the journey."
 
FLAIM: Did the victim ever see any policeman, or just a light and a muzzle flash if that? **** It was a COSTUME PARTY for crying out loud, you know, pirates, gangsters, soldiers, POLICE, etc. Why did the officer do his 5 shot quickdraw McGraw, instead of STEPPING BACK OUT OF THE LINE OF FIRE?? Or are you saying to me that today it is okay for cops to "SHOOT FIRST AND THINK LATER"??? **** Sorry, but the way I read this, if a cop THINKS he has a right to be on my property, and he THINKS he is right to peek in my window, and he sees me holding a firearm or a facsimile, he is FREE TO BLOW ME AWAY WITHOUT THINKING. Please tell me how this should make me feel warm and fuzzy about the boyz in blue? **** ARE YOU REALLY SAYING THAT MY HOUSE IS NOW A FREE-FIRE ZONE?? If you are, we have a BIG PROBLEM!
 
It is difficult to know a person's motivation, particularly when he is now dead.
Apparently it was a loud Halloween party and the neighbors called the police.
As C.R.Sam said, they could have knocked and asked for the owner, told him to cool the noise or they will come back and arrest him or everybody or whatever.
I can't say what I would done if... so this is not second guessing, but I think you could expect to see a gun or two at a Halloween party an well as a costumed cop or two.
Should the officers waited at the door?
Should the officer have tolerated the toy gun being pointed at him because it was a costume party?
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas.

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You have to be there when it's all over. Otherwise you can't say "I told you so."

Better days to be,

Ed
 
As usual, the cop has about one second to make a life-or-death decision. The public at large has weeks and months to study that decision.

Somebody points a replica gun at me, how do I know it's a replica? If I'm armed I'll try to dodge, and draw and shoot. If unarmed, I'll probably be the zig-zaggin'est SOB leaving the area. But I could deal with remorse more easily than with my funeral.

FWIW, Art
 
Travis,
This is easy, the guy points a fake gun at a cop and gets himself killed, end of story. Don't turn this into you not being safe in your home because LEOs are going to be sneaking around your house, looking in your windows and praying for an opportunity to kill you.

What was the cop supposed to do? Duh, gee, it is a costume party so MAYBE this is a toy gun so MAYBE I should wait for a muzzle flash before I shoot. The costume party does not mean that some idiot shows up with a real gun and decides to take out the cop. LEOs have been killed in all kinds of wierd situations.

Since you are on this board I would guess you believe in the RKBA so you possibly carry a gun. So lets say you are walking down the street at night and somebody pops out of a doorway and points a gun at you, what are you going to do? Please be honest with yourself and all of us before you answer.
 
On the bare facts, this was a justified shoot, but it sure strikes me as piss-poor judgement. I wouldn't put the shooter in jail, but I don't think he should be a cop any more. Weregild (damages) from the city to the deceased's family, of course.
 
105K. Closed for length.

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
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