Yep-- We should all call 911 and trust all our lives to the police

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wormtown

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This is not meant to be a police bashing thread-- there are many fine men and women in uniform-- but the lack of judgement displayed here (by the deceased and the police) is frightening. This does put holes in the theory that we should all give up our right to arms and call 911 instead.
There are several stories written on this, but here is one: http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42639-2000Oct30.html

A Party, a Death and New Anger at the LAPD
By Rene Sanchez and William Booth
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, October 31, 2000; Page A03

LOS ANGELES, Oct. 30 –– Anthony Dwain Lee came to a Halloween costume party at a hillside mansion here this past weekend dressed as a devil and carrying a toy pistol, a mocking gesture to the rough gang life that he had left behind decades ago to build a successful career as a stage, television and film actor.

A few hours later, in a strange and tragic incident that has left the Los Angeles Police Department once more defending its aggressive conduct, Lee was dead. He was shot several times by an officer who had come to the party to investigate a complaint about noise and apparently mistook Lee as a gun-toting threat.

Police say a three-year veteran of the force fired at Lee through a window of the crowded mansion in the city's posh Benedict Canyon neighborhood early Saturday morning after the 39-year-old actor pointed a gun at him. But partygoers, residents nearby and community groups that monitor the LAPD are asking how such a minor report of raucousness at an upscale party could have escalated into deadly violence.

"It is a typical LAPD response, which is to be too quick to draw a firearm," said Carol Watson, a civil rights lawyer and board member of Police Watch, a local law enforcement watchdog group. "I can't imagine how the department is going to deal with this. It was an outrageous shooting."

The LAPD already is engulfed in trouble. Four of its officers are on trial for allegedly framing innocent people, and dozens more are being investigated for rogue conduct in what has come to be known here as the Rampart scandal. Since it came to light last year, nearly 100 criminal convictions have been overturned.

Last year, LAPD officers also were criticized for fatally shooting a disruptive homeless woman wielding a screwdriver. To avoid a federal civil rights lawsuit, the police department last month reluctantly agreed to allow the Justice Department to oversee its latest attempts at reforming the beleaguered force.

Police officials are calling Lee's death unfortunate, but justified. In a statement released Sunday, the department said that around 1 a.m. Saturday, two patrol officers responded to a report of a loud party in the wealthy Benedict Canyon neighborhood, a haven for entertainment industry figures.

Upon arrival, the officers sought out the owner of the mansion and were told by several costumed partygoers to go to the rear of the residence, according to the department's account. To get there, they began walking along a paved path beside the mansion. On the way, one of the officers, Tarriel Hopper, 27, looked through a glass door and saw three people in a small room, police said.

"When one of the individuals observed the officers, he suddenly produced what appeared to be a handgun and pointed it directly at Officer Hopper," the police statement said. Hopper opened fire. Lee was struck several times and collapsed. A nurse attending the party tried to revive him. But paramedics called to the scene soon pronounced him dead. Police said Lee's gun was a dark "replica semi-automatic pistol."

Erik Quisling, an author and filmmaker, was in the room when Lee was shot. "It was a bedroom on the first floor, in the back of the house, facing the back yard." Quisling recalls that four or five party-goers were in the room, all of them in costumes, enjoying the music and conversation. "Then I heard firecrackers. Like pop, pop, pop. Someone said, 'Oh, my God, they're shooting at us,' and I looked and saw holes in the glass. And instinctively, I sniffed the air and smelled gun smoke."

Quisling turned, "and I looked on the floor, and there was this guy, laying in this unnatural position, slumped by the bed, and dead still."

Quisling said that he did not see police officers outside in the yard, nor did they announce their presence. The police, he said, shot from a darkened yard into a lit room.

"There was no warning," Quisling said. "Nothing like that."

According to Quisling, his friend, Steve Sims, a nurse, was blocked from entering the room by one of the two officers. The police eventually relented and Sims went to Lee's aid, but according to Quisling, the police did not allow Sims to perform CPR efforts on Lee. Sims has told police and reporters that he saw a toy gun next to Lee's body.

Quisling described the police behavior as outrageous and reckless. Other party-goers said the police fired five shots into the room, and that there were five bullet holes in the window and five holes in the wall. "Other people could have been killed," Quisling said.

Quisling also said that, as one of only a few eyewitnesses in the room, he was interviewed by Hopper's partner after the shooting, but has not been contacted since by the LAPD or by investigators with the city's district attorney. "Now, don't you think that is strange?" he asked.

Quisling and other guests and neighbors stressed that the Benedict Canyon party was not out of control, but "a highly organized affair." There were hired bartenders, a disc jockey, security guards and shuttle drivers. The hosts had taken pains to alert neighbors to the party, inviting several and promising to keep the noise down.

Connie Rice, a civil rights attorney who has represented both police officers and civilians charging abuse at the hands of the LAPD, said that the police commission and federal overseers of the LAPD must reexamine how officers are trained.

Rice said she is disappointed that the first response by the LAPD command is to suggest that the shooting, while tragic, appeared justified. "What are they teaching these recruits at the academy? Where is the common sense? This was a nuisance call. This was in Benedict Canyon. And finally, this was the night of all the Halloween parties. People in costumes, people with fake swords and guns? Halloween? Helllllo. When is LAPD going to learn?"

Lee was remembered by his friends as a gentle man, a practicing Buddhist whose acting career was beginning to flourish. He had roles in the movies "Buffalo Soldiers" and "Liar, Liar," and had recently taped several guest appearances on the television hit show "E.R." that have not yet run.

********************************************
This is a tragedy not just for this man and his family, but for all of the honest, hard working and competent men and women of the LAPD who will undeservedly feel the backlash.

I am curious to here from the LEOs on this board-- how would you have handled this situation? I'm really disturbed by the fact they would not let a nurse in the room to perform CPR. IMO, it seems the fact that this was at a Halloween party in an upscale neighborhood would tend to argue against shoot first, ask questions later approach.
 
This topic has already been beat to death. Check other threads for peoples views.
Of course the nurse wasn't admitted; you don't admit people to a crime scene, which it became as soon as the person was shot.
 
Five holes in the glass, and five holes in the wall? What is it that the LAPD shoots?

I also thought it was a pretty interesting point about the dark yard and the lighted room. Has anyone ever tried to look outside under those conditions? It is extreemly difficult to see outside without getting up against the glass and shading it with your hands.

But, I would imagine that under those circumstances I would react very simularly.

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wormtown:
"It is a typical LAPD response, which is to be too quick to draw a firearm," said Carol Watson, a civil rights lawyer and board member of Police Watch, a local law enforcement watchdog group. "I can't imagine how the department is going to deal with this. It was an outrageous shooting."

"There was no warning," Quisling said. "Nothing like that."
[/quote]

I'm not an LEO, though there are LEOs in my family and circle of friends. I call it a tragedy, but a justified shoot nonetheless. Why?

First, some people seem to think there should have been a warning of some sort. You know what they call a cop who issues warnings to people with drawn guns? Corpse. The cops shined a light through the window, and Lee made a deliberate reactive move, pointing his "replica" gun at the light. What is the cop supposed to do? Ask if it's a fake, issue warnings with a weapon pointed at his heart, and hope someone takes care of his wife and kids?

Second, the fact that there was a Halloween party going on is not much of an excuse. If Lee had been wearing a cowboy outfit, you might wonder if the gun was just a prop, but he was wearing a Devil suit. The gun doesn't really fit in with that costume, does it?

Third, the idea that the cops should have assumed no danger because it was an upscale neighborhood is flat out class-discriminatory, if not racist. Would people object any less if this had happened in an economically disadvantaged minority neighborhood?

This is a sad event, but IMHO the officer acted properly. Attempts by "watchdog groups" to drag in unrelated scandals, and tar all cops with a brush dipped in the stain of a few bad ones are despicable.
 
This is not a Diallo case - it is sad but the police had little choice.

It is silly to criticize those who are angry and those who defend the police. It is just a tragic mistake.

Police bashing is not called for in this one.
Unless you are one of those posters who think are better than all LEOs.
 
Check out the picture of the weapon that was pointed at this LAPD officer. [its on another thread here at TFL that is locked for bandwidth porposes].

Desert eagle replica 357 mag. In that picture its very hard to tell the difference between it and the real one in that picture!

Now ask yourself, if a weapon like this was pointed at you in a threating manner, and you are armed whats your reaction going to be?
 
tcsd1236 Wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Of course the nurse wasn't admitted; you don't admit people to a crime scene, which it became as soon as the person was shot.[/quote]

WTF?!?!?!

So let the guy die and prevent medical help because it's a crime scene?!?!

I hope your not a cop!

Any cop that prevented the nurse from rendering aid should be charged!!!!!!!
 
Actually Chris, I am, and my response was as one. If you review the news report, it states that they initially refused her entry, but relented. No word on how long this refusal was; it could have simply been an initial "you can't come in here"..no way of knowing.
I read that as an attempt to protect the crime scene from contamination. We can't know for sure, it's my take on the situation. Anyone questioning the importance of not contaminating a crime scene only has to reflect back to the Simpson trial and the blasting the LAPD took for allowing extensive access to the crime scene by numerous individuals. I am sure that since that trial, the recruits at LAPD have had it drummed into them the importance of crime scene integrity.
 
And while we're at it, yes, I am in favor of allowing medical treatment; however, EMT's and Firemen are famous in police circles as "evidence erradicators".
 
If that had been a real Desert Ego, would we even have heard of this shooting?

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
tcsd1236,

What crime, Stupidity? Granted what he did was dumb. To allow a person to die and not be alowed treatment is murder, PERIOD!!!!!!! Even though they relented how long until they did...? AFTER he was dead?

Come on!!!!!!!!!

Irelevant as to how the shooting went down to allow someone to die so as not to "contaminate" the scene is frigging amazing.

Did the cops not have enough time to swap the toy gun for a real one?

How can that be justified? This was pretty streight forward if a mistake.

I'm scared thet there are cops like that. That will alow a person to die as to not mess up their scene. I seroiusly hope you are joking.

The guy was at a halloween party and NOT at a bank robbery!

As for "evidence erradicators", is it better to let people die vs. missing something or what.
 
Chris D,

All the cops knew was that he had pointed a gun at them. To let someone approach that close to the downed person is to risk the possibility that he's not as hurt as he looks, and is laying low until someone comes near enough to grab as a hostage. No telling whether he's got another gun, or a knife. Consider that before you start calling people murderers, please.
 
Guys (and Gal),

At the risk of getting a bloody nose, I've read all the reponses in both threads to this and didn't find anyone asking the 2 questions that occurred to me.

Firstly, if you or I were to shoot dead a partygoer who pointed a toy gun at you, we would almost certainly be judged under harsher criteria than this officer, and that is hardly fair and just.

Secondly, if it isn't safe for your friends or family to play with toy guns in your own home for fear of being shot through the window without warning, exactly where is it safe to play with them ?. Don't misunderstand me, if you point a gun anywhere near a badge you are going to get yourself shot, which in my mind makes toy guns the more dangerous of the two, since they are inevitably treated with less respect by the owner than real firearms. The moral to me is - skip the toys completely and give little Johnny a 10/22, seems he'll live longer.

Mike H

[This message has been edited by Mike H (edited October 31, 2000).]
 
Without more evidence, raving about the police is quite silly.
You just don't know what the timeline was for getting him help or knowing he was safe or whatever.

It's sad but the cops don't need abuse on this one.

Mike H - please cite the cases of a similar siutation where the homeowner was treated less fairly or are you just blowing smoke?

The civil suits will begin soon.
 
Chris:
None of the reports I have read indicate what the victims condition was immediately after receiving 4 or 5 center mass hits. I imagine after that happened, he was DRT, and any attempts to save him were futile.
WHAT crime scene you ask? Any time an officer is involved in a shooting, the scene is automatically a crime scene until cleared by the CID folks or whoever takes it over from the patrol officers.
As I said, if there is a chance of rendering aid, sure, go for it. However, I am willing to bet the guy was gone and no amount of heroic efforts by well-meaning off-duty nurses was gonna bring him back.
I would have to say that in a similar situation, thats how I would handle the attempted treatment.
 
Yes, I wasen't there and I don't know the timeline.

But what I do know is he was prevented treatment by the cops, even IF for only a short amount of time.

MY problem is a lot of you think that was OK and try to justify it.

I think a persons life is worth more than the integrity of a crime scene.

If this had been a shooter at a Wendys or a bank, then a delay is warrented until such time as the BG is proved no longer to be a threat. But this was a party.......

Frankly, If someone points a gun at me I will shoot! If he dies, so be it.... But I'd never allow someone to die by preveting assitance even if I shot the person.

As for if the guy was dead before he hit the ground, who made the death call? Delaying the nurse would not be an issue and not mentioned.
 
Been a while since I was party to a disturbance call. Used to be that one officer would go to the door while partner covered discreetly. If owner or host was not the person answering the door, their presence was requested. Entire transaction was handled from the front of the house or apartment. Didn't matter what "class" neighborhood. First call was invariably handled with respect and courtesy on the part of all parties. If party was on the lawn or porch, business was taken care of from the driveway or sidewalk.

Head party person came to the officer, officer did not go looking for them.

The times, they are achangin.

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
CR Sam,

It seems to me that your post is the most reasoned and reasonable of all the posts. Exactly what did you mean by times are a changing, care to elaborate I would be interested to know your thoughts.

Personally I think anyone stupid enough to point a gun at a cop, even a toy (and that was one realistic looking toy!) most likely will end up dead and will deserve it. However, I am disturbed by the officers not letting in a medical professional to attempt aid.

Despite the fact that this looks to me like a justified shooting, it definitely makes me more afraid of the police. What if the police come to my door for whatever reason, and I am armed? Will I end up dead too? What if I have a disturbance or one of my tenants call's in a disturbance, and I am investigating the noise, or waiting in my living room armed? Will I end up dead when the police show up? Will they shoot me through my window when they see I am armed? After all, how do they know I'm the homeowner? What if I went to a Halloween party dressed as a cowboy with toy guns, and I get pulled over on the way? Will I end up dead? What if I went to a Halloween party with my Glock in the People's Republic of MA, and shot a fellow party goer 10 times because he pointed a toy gun at me (of course at the time I did not know it was a toy)? In this state I'm pretty sure I would get life. No doubts about it in this state. Somehow I suspect if I had a badge, it would be justified. There is something wrong there-- the laws should be applied equally and fairly to everyone, regardless of badge or not.
 
Okay.

Bottom line is.. dude pointed a gun at an officer and got hozed. I would have hozed the guy too had he pointed a gun at me. In my eyes (and that of the officer), it was a gun. Not until later was it revealed as a toy gun. Its easy to condemn this officer's actions. How many of you, next time you are held at gunpoint by someone, are going to question wether it is a real or toy gun. Please. Give me a break.

Insult / verbally attack an officer and you just earned yourself some extra time and heartache instead of gettin' your ticket and moving on. (I learned this the hard way.)

Run from or resist arrest from an officer and you're more than likely gonna get beat. If you're told to stay on the ground, and try to get up -- I'll give you one guess as to whats gonna happen.

Kill or seriously harm an officer and you are going to be hunted down by the entire cop community at large.

Point a gun (toy or otherwise) at an officer and you have just committed suicide.

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[This message has been edited by KaMaKaZe (edited November 01, 2000).]
 
Okay...a quick note.

While I am NOT a PO, I have trained many of them. My aikido instructor/dojo owner is a FTO for a local sheriff's department. In this role, I have used many of they types of guns that were involved. I can tell you that even during class, I couldn't stand to even have one of them pointed at me during explanation.

I don't know if this was one of the 8mm operationals or not (that can shoot the blanks that will cause the slide to function) but this was NOT, as reported by the media, a toy gun. It was a replica gun. By nature, this was DESIGNED to fool the eye...even of experienced people! If you look at the pictures of it, note the lack of orange/red marking required by law for all toy/replica/BB guns EXCEPT for those exempted by protected class...like MOVIE props!

We weren't privy to shots of the outside home pictures...maybe there was absolutely NO cover. Maybe the officer was but a few feet away outside the window...in this case, without the toy replica marking, it's easy to see how this might have happened.

What happens to lay people, is they are strongly influenced by movies. Where all cops are agile and smart. They are crack shots...and all the bystanders act properly..they scream and hit the deck or scatter in an instant. They expect the cops to leap behind the nearest boulder and have a conversation with the bad guy. If he doesn't listen to reason, the cop leans out and takes one shot, hitting the gun and knocking it out of his hand. I've had people ask me, once they find out that I am a firearms instructor, why the cops didn't shoot the guns out of the hands of the North Hollywood bankrobbers a few years ago! Educating people out of this is an uphill task to say the least.

Until people develop more respect for firearms and their application, altercations like this will continue to happen.

Just my $.02

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The fox provides for himself, but God provides for the lion--R. Kipling
 
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