Yeah, this should help gas prices!

Yes, there's a massive conspiracy among car manufacturers to promote smaller cars even though larger ones are more marketable and sell in greater numbers.
So the population isn't buying the hype either. And manufacturers don't buy competing brands of vehicles, test them and report the findings for the government.
Now imagine if that econo car had been a truck. Greater chance that both drivers would be toast.
I don't know but it's like saying we shouldn't have guns because badguys shouldn't have guns either.
Now you also have to take into account what kind of car this was. Some are better built than others.
I guess if they found the registration they could figure out what it was.
But if you want to ignore the hundreds of thousands of man hours by trained scientists and engineers because you like big trucks, go right ahead.
You mean the ones employed by the government? I don't believe everything the government says.
 
So the population isn't buying the hype either. And manufacturers don't buy competing brands of vehicles, test them and report the findings for the government.
What hype? That smaller cars are more economical, better for the environment and just as safe - and in many cases safer - than trucks?
I don't know but it's like saying we shouldn't have guns because badguys shouldn't have guns either.
No, it's not even close to that. I'm not suggesting anyone stop buying their trucks.

Well, actually I am. Those who don't need them should consider more responsible choices. But it's their money, of course. That being said, it doesn't change the fact that if that accident had been between two trucks both drivers would have a much greater chance of being severely injured because, by design, trucks cannot offer the same amount of impact absorption.
I guess if they found the registration they could figure out what it was.
I highly doubt any impact with a light truck is going to destroy a car so completely that the make and model can't be determined.
You mean the ones employed by the government? I don't believe everything the government says.

Yes, scientists and engineers are spending years of their lives studying their asses off in school so they can work for the government and just make things up instead of putting their skills to use.

What exactly gives you reason not to believe this? I don't believe everything the government tells me either but when I doubt something I prefer to have a reason to do so.

Oh and crash tests are initially conducted by the manufacturers, not the government.
 
What hype? That smaller cars are more economical, better for the environment and just as safe - and in many cases safer - than trucks?

Yes, scientists and engineers are spending years of their lives studying their asses off in school so they can work for the government and just make things up instead of putting their skills to use.

Oh and crash tests are initially conducted by the manufacturers, not the government.
Yes, that's the hype, you summed it up quite nicely. Scientists have learned how to bend the laws of physics for the PC crowd and manufacturers test each other's vehicles.
 
In a rollover a sub compact is an utter failure! The body on frame are nearly as collapsible as a unibody. The frames have crumple zones in them as well as the body. Front end has several in the frame. I been under trucks from the mid 70's to the 2001. Mid 70' did not but the 80's do.
Brent
 
I drive a diesel pickup (needed for my work) that gets 18-19 mpg. I can tow 18,000# and weighs 8000#. We traded off the wife's Tahoe 12-14 mpg around town for a Honda Element. 21-24 MPG with it's 4 cylinder. It can tow 500#:o Granted it's not a Prius but given the weight and engine size it should be capable of a better milage figure. But it's got the aerodynamics of a barn door.

When I crash, I hope it's in the 8000# full frame pickup!

On topic:
We really don't seem to have a supply problem with oil. If we did wouldn't we not be able to get it? Supply and demand? Sounds simple but how much of the military budget is spent to protect oil? I think the Arabs are right: There's nothing wrong with the price of oil, it's the Yankee dollar dropping like a rock.

Any law that favors penalizing American corporations as opposed to foreign ones is yet another step in the wrong direction. Let's continue the flow of American jobs out of the country.
 
Yes, that's the hype, you summed it up quite nicely. Scientists have learned how to bend the laws of physics for the PC crowd and manufacturers test each other's vehicles.

Sorry but there's no bending of the laws of physics in this. Smaller vehicles with smaller engines are in virtually all cases more fuel efficient than full-sized trucks (and some compact trucks). Those same vehicles are almost always cleaner than full sized trucks for the very same reason (engines using less fuel to move less weight = less emissions).

If you want to talk about the physics of a crash I'm all for it. The bottom line remains that trucks are built to be stiff. They have to be in order to function as trucks. Frame rigidity is an absolute necessity for hauling and towing heavy loads. This is the reason that many owners of that Honda truck-wannabe are reporting complaints; their trucks are bending and tweaking along the body because they're trying to carry loads designed for real trucks in a unibody construction.

That being said, one of the basic laws of physics is that energy will always travel through the path of least resistance. In a unibody car with crumple zones that path is primarily the bending, twisting, collapsing metal built into the car for that very purpose. In a truck, where the frame has to be extremely stiff and unyielding as possible, the energy cannot be absorbed into the body of the vehicle and thus will travel to the point of least resistance: YOU.

And yes, sometimes manufacturers test each others vehicles? And?? That's to compare against the competition and to keep each other honest. But when BMW releases a new 5-series the vast majority of crash testing on that car was done at the design stage by BMW.
 
In a rollover a sub compact is an utter failure! The body on frame are nearly as collapsible as a unibody. The frames have crumple zones in them as well as the body. Front end has several in the frame. I been under trucks from the mid 70's to the 2001. Mid 70' did not but the 80's do.
Brent
Oh they certainly have them...though they're not so much crumple "zones" as they are crumple "points". Certain parts of the frame are able to absorb some impact but overall the design of the frame requires a structure that doesn't transfer energy very well. If it did, it would buckle under the energy transfer that occurs when hauling or towing heavy loads.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lB0araA0T_k

I wish I knew what speed that was at so I could post comparable videos.

Though from my understanding offset crash tests are all done at the same speed, 40mph.

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=168
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=7

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DPKf99BSn5g

Same crash and the tiny German Mini would protect you a lot better than the big honkin Ford. Fortunately, due to the horrible crash record of the F150 they spent a lot of time redesigning things on the newest models. However, due to their very nature trucks still have to be stiffer than cars and will still transfer more of the impact energy into the people inside than a car would.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BaAB9RhoyJ8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1LkAzt_0qIg

Oh and so no one thinks I'm picking on the Oval since I drive a Silverado:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-WmypX2RUPY

:D

When I crash, I hope it's in the 8000# full frame pickup!
I sure hope not, I like seeing your posts around here and don't want you to have a broken neck or face a lawsuit for crushing an econobox full of nuns. :p
 
Well, interesting counterpoint regarding Exxon and taxes... oilwatchdog.org

Quoted here in its entirety. Make sure to read the comments in the link above though..

2-14-08 by dugan (and thanks to Mark Reback for the tip)

I can't believe Investors Business Daily would do so little checking of an editorial on Tuesday slamming the critics of ExxonMobil, from Sen. Carl Levin to our small foundation. As a former editorial writer, I'm reluctant to call attention to such a shoddy piece. But it just begs for comment.

The editorial, “Record Profits Mean Record Taxes,” is based in large part on a blog post by Mark Perry, an economics professor at the Flint, Mich., satellite campus of the University of Michigan and, more revealingly, an adjunct scholar at the hard-right, free-marketeer Mackinac Center for Public Policy.

The Perry blog post is also making the rounds of free-marketeer web sites with its argument that Exxon pays so much tax that we must offer gratitude instead of criticizing its record $40.6 billion profit in 2007, or its $39.1 billion in 2006 profit.

Perry’s bottom line is that poor people don't pay taxes like Exxon does, and thus Exxon is the better citizen. But he doesn't even prove this point.

Perry notes from Exxon’s year-end unaudited figures that it paid, or expected to pay, $30 billion in taxes worldwide to all governments at all levels for 2007, on pre-tax profit of $70.6 billion, which would be a 42% tax rate. That's 42%, of course, after the accountants have deducted or excluded or stashed overseas every possible cent. The $30 billion in taxes can also be viewed as about 7% of Exxon's total revenue, $405 billion.

Prof. Perry notes that over three years, Exxon's annual taxes average $27 million. He then makes a comparison to U.S. income taxes paid in 2004 by the bottom half of American taxpayers, a measly $27.9 billion total. He calls that a 4% tax rate.

Here’s what Perry, much less the IBD editorial, forgets to mention about those taxpayers:

- Their average taxable income is about $14,000 a year.

- Their federal income tax at that level would be dwarfed by payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid (7.65%).

- State and local income taxes are not included.

-Sales taxes are not included

- Property taxes, or landlord property taxes as part of rent, are not included.

- Vehicle registration and taxes are not

included.

- Even state and federal gasoline taxes (non-sales) are not included.

- None of these low-income Americans' taxes went to Kazakhstan, Chad, Nigeria or other corrupt nations with which Exxon does business. Some certainly went to U.S. costs linked to keeping Exxon's overseas investments safe -- such things as naval costs for protection of oil shipping lanes.

- None of these little taxpayers shared in the billions of federal government subsidies to oil companies that their taxes also helped fund.

The comparison is the ultimate apples to oranges, and completely mean-spirited.

The IBD editorial goes on to say:

"That [Exxon] profit, so loathed by the left, actually plays an important role. No, it's not used to light the fat cigars Exxon Mobil executives smoke to celebrate the successful squeezing of consumers.

"Rather, the money is plowed back into research, development, exploration and drilling to keep the oil flowing, and distributed to stockholders who have risked their capital to build an enterprise that provides an essential good — the lifeblood of our economy."

On the cigar point, the editorial is probably right. On the rest, hardly.

Over the last three years, Exxon has spent an average of at least $25 billion a year on buying back its own stock instead of investing in growth or modernization. The buybacks are a corporate piggy-bank with little or no economic use except for keeping the stock price high. It doesn't even boost dividends.

Exxon's daily cash on hand in 2007 averaged $33 billion. Yet it continues to resist paying $2.5 billion in punitive damages to Alaskans permanently harmed by the negligent Exxon Valdez oil spill in 1989. Imagine what Exxon's lawyers are being paid, year after year, on this case.

And, just to compare to those $14,000-a-year folks, some of whom are probably Exxon employees, Exxon's 2006 compensation to CEO Rex Tillerson included $13 million in direct payment, another $13.5 million in stock grants, and $480,000 in perks including $100,000 for "personal use" of the corporate jet. That doesn't include his right to more than $20 million any time he decides to "retire."

On second thought, I'm proud not to be admired by a publication that would editorialize on the basis of numbers so manipulated and so misused in the service of Exxon.
 
With oil costing $100 a barrel now a reality, Goldman Sachs says $200 a barrel could be a reality in the not-too-distant future in the case of a "major disruption" as analysts eye more price hikes in the energy sector


And yet all those people against coal and nuclear will be complaining the loudest. Why do you think oil costs so much? Think. Huh? What if we got 80% of our electricity from nuclear power? What would that do to the price of oil?
 
at the same time

You do have to question why some of the major oil companies or thier affiliates are into developing alternative energy businesses. When oil was low the cost of alternatives were very high. Now oil is high and the alternatives technologies are more competitive for some applications. The oil companies now own the alternatives. Make you wonder if the connection is not more than mere coincidence.
 
There are some who believe gas prices are not that bad!

Whether we agree on how or why gas prices have skyrocketted, I believe we all agree it is harmful to each of us who has to fill up on a regular basis. But, to my astonishment, there are actually people who don't think the gas price situation is that bad. Just read this article on yahoo.

http://biz.yahoo.com/cnnm/080311/031108_gas_prices_inflation.html?.v=2&.pf=banking-budgeting

When it takes nearly $80 a week to fill my Escort up twice, things are bad!

Lg_mouth
 
I read an interesting article in "Wired" magazine in 2006 I believe. The reason alternatives aren't promoted is simply this, at the time cost of production of $80/barrel oil was $22! If you were in the business to make profit, wouldn't selling $22. crude for $80 be much more lucrative than ethanol, oil shale and others at $60-$75/ barrel equivalent?

FOLLOW THE MONEY!!
That and throwing $200 billion at the economy this week amount to: More money=weaker dollar=higher oil.

It wouldn't surprise me if the uber Secretive Federal Reserve members have all of their personal money tied to the EURO and will continue to trash the US dollar with abandon. When and if they decide to do ANYTHING to prop up the value of the US dollar, they will quickly convert their EUROs back to US funds.
 
Yeah, I didn't understand that either

Yeah, I really didn't understand throwing more money out. That will just make the dollar weaker. It is weaker than I ever thought I would see it, which is distressing.

Lg_mouth
 
This entire discussion is forgetting one thing:

It isn't your oil. Did you drill it? Did you refine it? Did you ship it?

Then what right do you have to dictate selling price?

That is like you buying a house for $80,000. You later place that same house on the market for $140,000. I argue that the profit is excessive, and the local court forces you to sell me the house for $85,000, that being the price I thought was fair.

If we refuse to pay the price they are asking, the oil companies will simply sell the oil to China and India, who are the reason prices are climbing in the first place.

China is the second leading consumer of oil, and has been posting double digit increases in oil demand for nearly ten years. China's oil consumption rose from 4 million barrels a day in 1998 to over 9 million barrels a day in 2008. That increase is 38% of the worlds increase for the same time period. By 2030, China will be the world's largest oil consumer.

My prediction: oil prices will continue to rise, the dollar will continue to fall, and China will surpass us as the world's superpower while our government taxes, regulates, borrows and spends us into third world status.

As competition for valuable strategic resources increases, the specter of a large scale war rises, and a fight for scant resources becomes more and more likely.
 
Only a flaming liberal with a socialist agenda could look at the collision between a 2800 lb Civic (3 killed) and a 4000 lb Durango (driver walked away) and conclude that it is the evil SUV that is unsafe.

Mass wins every time. That is why the NHTSA does front collision tests in categories of vehicles that weigh within 250 lbs of each other. Five stars in a 2500 lb Chevy Aveo is not equal protection to five stars in a 4000 lb Acura RDX (IIHS Top Safety Pick).

Physics is harsh. Physics extends no credit for your planet-saving Prius (only 4 stars by the way). To claim that SUVs are unsafe to other vehicles is mindlessly failing to understand that it is the econobox that fails to protect it's occupants.

Or, perhaps they understand that very well, they just don't want the sensible among us protected at their illogical earth-child expense.
 
Only a flaming liberal with a socialist agenda could look at the collision between a 2800 lb Civic (3 killed) and a 4000 lb Durango (driver walked away) and conclude that it is the evil SUV that is unsafe.

I'm pretty sure nobody here has argued that the occupants of a compact car are safer in a collision with an SUV. In fact, I think even those favoring compacts over SUV have admitted the opposite.

Mass wins every time. That is why the NHTSA does front collision tests in categories of vehicles that weigh within 250 lbs of each other. Five stars in a 2500 lb Chevy Aveo is not equal protection to five stars in a 4000 lb Acura RDX (IIHS Top Safety Pick).

In a vehicle-on-vehicle collision, yes mass does generally win. This does not necessarily equate to safer overall, however, as there are still single-vehicle collisions to consider as well as other increased risks often present is SUVs (such as rollovers, decreased visibility for themselves and/or others, etc).

Also, unless I'm mistaken NHTSA star ratings are based on the odds of a serious injury occurring in that kind of accident; the actual "test" is conducted with a barrier, not another vehicle. Supposedly the ratings are valid for impacts with vehicles of similar size, or single-vehicle collisions (which account for about half of all fatalities). So yeah, two vehicles with five star ratings actually will be equally safe in either similar-size collisions, or in single-vehicle collisions...which together account for a majority of collisions overall.

Physics is harsh. Physics extends no credit for your planet-saving Prius (only 4 stars by the way). To claim that SUVs are unsafe to other vehicles is mindlessly failing to understand that it is the econobox that fails to protect it's occupants.

I know a thing or two about physics. I could probably hold my own in a conversation as to why, in multiple-car crash (which is an inelastic collision, of course), it probably pays to be in the larger vehicle. Momentum's conserved, kinetic energy is not, forces (and impulses) exerted on the bodies during the collision, etc. And mechanics isn't really even my "thing"...I'm more of a fields and electricity guy. Still wouldn't change the fact that (A) inter-vehicle collisions are a minority of collisions, and (B) SUVs carry their own drawbacks to safety outside of inter-vehicle collisions.

Or, perhaps they understand that very well, they just don't want the sensible among us protected at their illogical earth-child expense.

Well, it could be that. Or it could be that us illogical earth-children realize that, since most of the increased safety of an SUV as at the expense of those in cars, the likely endgame of this vehicular arms race is that a majority will simply choose to go with SUVs...which then leads to increased fuel consumption and emissions, neither of which are desirable. Plus, the really cool part is that once a vast majority are driving SUVs, really the occupants of SUVs wind up being no safer than they'd have been to start with if we had all stuck with cars. Yay?

Really, I'd say the whole car vs. SUV thing may be a pretty compelling real-world example of the Prisoner's Dilemma concept.
 
JuanCarlos said:
Also, unless I'm mistaken NHTSA star ratings.....are valid for impacts with vehicles of similar size, or single-vehicle collisions (which account for about half of all fatalities). So yeah, two vehicles with five star ratings actually will be equally safe in either similar-size collisions, or in single-vehicle collisions...which together account for a majority of collisions overall.

You are not mistaken, you are ignoring what you've already acknowledged; dissimilar size = dissimilar protection:

from NHTSA

Since the rating reflects a crash between two similar vehicles, make sure you compare vehicles from the same weight class, plus or minus 250 lbs., when looking at frontal crash star ratings.

JuanCarlos said:
I could probably hold my own in a conversation as to why, in multiple-car crash, it probably pays to be in the larger vehicle.

Thank you.

Still wouldn't change the fact that (A) inter-vehicle collisions are a minority of collisions,

Right, we should mention that to the families of the 3 killed in the Civic. Don't be concerned about inter-vehicle collisions, what with only Ford/Chevy/Dodge pickup trucks leading American sales for decades, and 50% of households having an SUV.

(B) SUVs carry their own drawbacks to safety outside of inter-vehicle collisions.

The newest SUVs are unit-body cross-overs, with crush zones, passenger safety cages, anti-roll technology and Static-Stability-Factors (risk of roll-over) of 4 stars, which equals most every sedan. They are, by virtue of weight and safety technology, safer than any car in ALL collisions, not just the ones you'd conveniently prefer to think about.

Or it could be that us illogical earth-children realize that, since most of the increased safety of an SUV as at the expense of those in cars, the likely endgame of this vehicular arms race is that a majority will simply choose to go with SUVs...which then leads to increased fuel consumption and emissions, neither of which are desirable.

Thank you again....that is full disclosure of the socialist agenda.

Environmentalists, by all means, sacrifice your families in an econobox. Mine will be riding in a modern SUV cross-over....we want to be around to watch New York City go under-water!
 
They are, by virtue of weight and safety technology, safer than any car in ALL collisions, not just the ones you'd conveniently prefer to think about.
No, they are not. Not in all collisions.
Thank you again....that is full disclosure of the socialist agenda.
:rolleyes: for frak's sake, every time someone here can't make a reasoned argument they throw out the word socialist

I suggest you do a little research into what socialism actually means before you try connecting it to crash safety.
 
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