Y2K Alert***

Dorsai

New member
This is unsubstantiated, but my source at least is reliable. I just haven't been able to verify the info he got. Should be able to add more next week, but in the meantime, I wanted to get the word out and see if anyone had any info that would tie into this.
Here we go. Allegedly, FEMA, BATF and other agencies (local law enforcement?) participated in a Y2K drill in Vancouver, WA a couple of weeks ago. They were doing simulated house-to-house weapons searches in plain clothes. The original source (a participant) stated that this was specifically related to anticipated Y2k actions.
Again, this may be so much BS, but Gennifer Flowers, Jaunita Broddrick and "That Woman" all started out as "BS" as well.

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Dorsai
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal
weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the
monarch of all he surveys.
-- Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
 
Please keep me informed about this, it is very scary.

thaddeus@primenet.com

Also, here is a good site to discuss this:

http://www.gunforums.com/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=The+Y2K+Discussion+Forum&number=23&DaysPrune=20&LastLogin=


I hope you don't mind, but I reposted your post on the gunforums.com Y2K site.
 
Interesting...

In the San Francisco Bay Area this month local LEOs, the Feds, and the military are doing an "Urban Terrorism" excercise, where they are looking at urban house-to-house, block level tactics. The local politicos think this is great because of the money being pumped into the local economy. The timing is rather interesting.
 
Ha! So, it isn't enough we justify sales tax dollars for stadiums via the ol' 'economic benefit' argument, eh? Now we'll be enjoying the economic benefit of urban, house-to-house searches! Oh boy! Where do I sign us up?? ;)

And, gee, if this is as great as advertised for the local economy, maybe we can set up some forced labor camps next!
 
Jeff, your understanding of economics is deplorable!
Labor camps are a loss leader. The sweetest plum is actually the consession sales to all the bereft family members hanging around outside the wire! Hey, they gotta eat too right? So sell them government cheese and bread along with tainted hotdogs at a scandalous markup and bang! You're in the black baby!
Side benefit, the tainted hotdogs will have them hitting the hospitals and pharmacies twice a day! It's beautiful!!!
On a serious note, I simply can't picture house to house gun snatches. Seems to me, that when I heard the fusillade of gunfire coming from my neighbor's house, I (along with a dozen other armed neighbors) would be running to the sound of the guns! Suddenly the "Jack booted Thugs" are gonna find themselves surrounded by a metric s**tload of very able riflemen. NOT the scenario they want to be in.
Now I know that this might not happen in the major metro areas, but that's why I live in the country. My suggestion concerning the Y2K situation, if you live in the city, GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN!!!

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Your mind is your primary weapon.
 
I haven't heard anything new on this one, but I wanted to respond to Ken's comment. If there ever is a gun grab, it won't be on the weekend or at night when you are home to resist. I thought about this one in the context of "if I was going to do it, how would I go about it?" Answer: do it during the normal workday when either no one is at home or its just the wife and kids. If you pick the right time, I think resistance would be minimal because most guys would be separated from their contraband. Just my opinion.

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Dorsai
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal
weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the
monarch of all he surveys.
-- Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
 
I'll concede it is possible that someone may pick new years to cause some trouble in anticipation of the end of the world. Regarding the door to door searches, How will the police decide whom to target?

Were I a LEO (I'm not) I would not want to utilize the bulk of my team in such a highly visible role. Would they just come after registered gun owners? known troublemakers? or former convicts? There are many more people than there are BATF, and they are acutely aware of that fact.

Door to Door sweeps of a neighborhood in a metro area might be one of the best ways to start a riot. Especially if everyone is already spooked... (no pun intended)


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Train Hard-
 
More info:

I was studying tonight at a restaurant and overheard a woman talking about her daughter in Santa Cruz. She said that "the military" (her daughter probably woudln't know the difference bewteen military and LEO) was practicing urban warfare right in her daughter's neighborhood. House to house movement and searches (?) were part of the practice.
She was not into the details, just the fear of it all and the fact that her daughter was freaked out. She mentioned that it is a big stink there and huge protests are going on but funny thing is, it has never gotten on the news. This is only a few hours from me but the first I have heard of it.

This is more heresay, and just like the above post, it claims to be from first-hand source.

I take it all with a grain of salt, but the question is: what exactly are they practicing so heavily for? So far this is the fourth report of this kind of thing I have heard about, in five different cities. There is definitly a reason for this influx of this type of training. I hope that it is only in the case of rioting. But, why are they practicing door-to-door searches, and why are agencies like the ATF involved? The ATF's job description does not include quelling riots....


Okay, so I am not jumping on the bandwagon either and I am not yet convinced that the "gubment is out to get us and they are going to use the y2k as an excuse to take our weapons". BUT, this kind of activity and the sudden influx of it has got to at least make you say "Hmmm...".

At the very least, they sure are training hard for riots. They must be pretty convinced that the urban areas could get very chaotic.




I have to sadly say that if weapons confiscations were the order, that I don't think that most people would put up a fight, honestly, if the gov't used their usual mind-numbing tactics coupled with some scare tactics as well. They seem to be very good at programming the American public to believe that whatever they are doing is "for our good", and at the same time, the few that don't buy it don't want to go to jail.


Think about the scenario: the gov't has most people convinced that taking away guns would be a good idea. They come to your neighborhood and start going door to door. By far MOST people are not going to resist and face the repercussions. The few that want to resist are not going to want to be the first, because they don't know if they are alone and they don't want to be the scapegoat.
Are YOU going to be the first to pull the trigger? When? When they go into your neighbor's home or when they get to yours? When you start firing, are you going to get any help from your neighbors or are they going to decide to keep quiet and let you burn? If the people immediatly around your house don't help, you are SOL and will be surrounded. Unless at least half of the people in a given neighborhood resist, they will fall, just thinking of the dynamics of it all.
Fact is, only a sparse few people would actually fire on any Official who tried to take their guns, especially after some good old media programming.
In San Francisco the city outlawed weapons told everyone to turn in there guns. I laughed and thought it was a joke. I never thought I would see the day, but the people did! I believe that the American public as a whole is much weaker than we think, because most of our friends are not the average American.

The agencies can take on the few, strong, prepared, resistant people one by one. Surround one resistant house at a time, gas the inside, cut off food and water, or if all else burn them to the ground and make a public display of it. No one after that will resist.

I really think that all this "If they come for my guns they will get the bullets first" mentality is wishful thinking. Fact is, most people will be scared to death and just comply. The few that don't will burn one at a time.


thaddeus
 
Thaddeus: Agreed, most people would not resist. How outnumbered are the police, anyway? 1000 to one? 10,000 to one? Somewhere in that range, anyway. So if one person in 100 DOES resist, they're "only" outnumbered 10 to one, against people with cover, and soon forewarned. My guess is that the attrition rate would be pretty high. So I don't anticipate this door to door scenario, unless they use it in some limited area so that the resulting police carnage can erode gun owner/police solidarity, and provide a pretext for widespread disarmiment. A more likely scenario is that they make gun ownership so inconvenient and unpleasent that the next generation doesn't take up the gun, and in 20 or 30 years we lack the political clout to defend ourselves at the ballot box, and the numbers to defend ourselves with the cartridge box. THEN they start the door to door searches!
 
Maybe it's time to become a LEO. Work from the inside out? Infiltrate.... :D

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
 
So, if I get the general drift here, the problem is not that gun owners are too few. The problems are:
1) Too few of us would fight an armed takeover by government forces (for all reasons stated).
2) We are too thinly spread out to resist effectively.
3) We have no way of physically uniting to overcome the first two problems.

Is this the general drift? If so, then we must get together as best we can, while we can.
1) We must try to reverse the trend to reduce (and eventually eliminate) our liberty.
-- This must be done peacefully - without force.
-- We must unite so our numbers give us strength.
-- We must use whatever means we currently have, that "they" dare not (yet) take from us, e.g. the internet, political efforts, public statements, peaceful demonstrations, etc.
2) We should have a back-up plan, each of us, and all of us.

It sounds to me like we are on the right track with the Firearms Owners movement. Let us unite, state our united position, recruit new members, educate "the masses", recruit more members, and make ourselves a united political force.

Did I say that we must unite?



[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 18, 1999).]
 
Funny, what you just described is what the media would call a "militia group". Once you are in a "militia group" these days, not only does your name go on a list somewhere, but it seems that the mass public could care less if any gov't group attacks your "compound" (not just your "home") because of your huge "stockpile of assault weapons" (rather than your "exotic firearms collection").
The way that the gov't seems to control what the media says and the way they portray these things, the gov't can now come in and burn you to the ground and the country applauds...or at best, just doesn't care.

Sorry to be a pessimist, I am just frustrated at the outlook right now.

And John: you may have the right idea. I have my eye on upper level law enforcement right now after I graduate. I figure, at best, I can try to make a difference for the good from the inside. People don't think that one person can lake a difference, but by golly, I can try.
 
Thaddeus,
I'm a former Marine, former Army Spec Ops, firearms instructor, gunsmith, chl holder, I have fairly regular contact with the BATF, I'm a registered member of the Libertarian Party (I highly reccomend this for all gunowners!) and I've got a big mouth. If there's a "list" that I'm not mentioned in somewhere, it's got to be a clerical error. So what's the big deal? Put my name on another list, just don't put it on the list of people who's houses are to be tagged for no knock searches!

Dorsai,
You raise an excellent point and one that strikes particularly close to home as I work nights and my wife works days. Guess under your scenario it's a case of KMAKYOYO. (kiss my a** kiddo, you're on your own!)
Again, not a pleasant thought. However, how many cops have to go through how many neighborhoods? As Brett pointed out, if doesn't require 100% participation. One in a hundred will do the job quite nicely. My greatest hope though is that IF this scenario ever comes to pass, all the good and patriotic LEOs will choose to develop a severe case of the "Blue Flu" that day. I hate the thought of having to face friends over rifle sights because they didn't want to lose their pensions.

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Your mind is your primary weapon.
 
John, I'm inside and Doing just that in my own small way.

As to patriotic Cops, most are, as to blue flu, more of the unpatriotic cops will get that because they Don't belive in anything. "I Don't Get paid enough to risk my life that much." Is a statement I have heard from more than one of the "NEW" breed of LEOs. Most of the rest of us LEOs belive in the Constitution and our oath to Protect it from all enemies Imported or Domestic. We may take care of our families first but many of us will be back to fight on your side.

I also swore to protect life and property. Yours and mine.
 
Raymond,
I really feel that I need to apoligise to every good cop I know when I post someting like the above.
I was raised to believe that the police were our friends. I was raised in a small town with a police force of half a dozen and the Chief was the husband of my kindergarten teacher! I remember those quaint days when Chief Mooney would be out and about town, looking like the Great Protector in his immaculate blue uniform. I remember that he would always have time for all of us kids and would carry penny candy around with him for his "gang of usuall suspects" as he called us.
So when I post something like the post above, I feel a little twinge of shame at myself and a great pang of regret at what our world has become. No longer is a policeman represented by a picture right out of Norman Rockwell. Today, the picture is of the Trooper in Fritz helmet and Tac black gear with a MP5 in high ready position.
It's terrible what has happened to our country and one of the worst facets is the change I just described.
I ask you to realize that I feel NO animosity to you or any other policeman who wears his badge with honor. I know most do.


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Your mind is your primary weapon.
 
Ken,
I took no offense at what you posted, I was merely stating facts as I see them from the inside. Some Officers will "go with the Flow" many will not.

223 years ago brave men pleadged their fortunes, their lives, and their sacred Honor, in the cause of Freedom. Can I do any less and call myself a true American?

One of those brave men stated something to the effect, "Gentelmen if we do not hang together, we will surely hang seperately."
That is just as true today.
 
Gentleman,
I'll add one thing more to the mix. I stated earlier that if I was going to do a round up, I'd plan it for a work day when all you crazies are away from your guns and its just the wife & kids (hoping they aren't as crazy as you!!). Ken Cook raised the excellent point that there aren't enough LEOs to do house to house. I agree. But, interestingly enough Uncle is planning a nationwide call up exercise of all National Guard units. All of them. Every state. It is a Y2K preparedness drill to make sure they can do it if necessary. Sorry I don't remember the exact date, but it is in May. I seem to recall 1 May, but don't quote me. That does happen to be a Saturday. The call up will not be done by the normal means, radio, tv, telephone. National Guard armories have been (some still are in the process) equipped with special HF radios to get the signal.
Anyway, if I was paranoid and thought there would be a roundup, I'd use the National Guard. If I send a units from County A to County Z, they won't be searching their friends and neighbors and who knows, they might obey orders. Should such an order be issued, you can bet that it will be accompanied by very competent looking proofs that it is totally constitutional, probably with a Presidential Executive Order. How many EM's will have the guts to mutiny when they have been presented with the apparent Constitutional authority for a confiscation?
If I were to order this, I'd also make sure my order said it was temporary only to ensure public safety, and that all firearms, etc, would be returned when the emergency had passed. That should ease some doubts, at least until the turn back day had come and gone. But by then, it would be too late.
Just MHO.

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Dorsai
Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud, and the rifle is the queen of personal
weapons. The possession of a good rifle, as well as the skill to use it well, truly makes a man the
monarch of all he surveys.
-- Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle
 
Plan it for a workday? They've got a problem-I work weekends :) Also, the emergency pack in my vehicle's trunk would qualify in most eyes as an arsenal. That's the purpose of the three handguns in the passenger compartment: get to the trunk.
 
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