XM8 VS. M16/M4 and 5.56 VS. 6.8SPC what's next...?
- Thread starter M4A3
- Start date
The Body Bagger
New member
Actually the SCAR is based upon the FNC. Info can be found here Ptr 91 are based upon HK G3's which are based upon Cetme's.
Morpheus32
Inactive
Gents,
I kind of have to jump in here and comment on a couple of things. I have been lurking and felt the need to contribute!
Firstly there is a big difference in the needs of the individual rifleman in a platoon or company and that of the armed citizen. What you might feel comfortable with fighting zombies or the like is significantly different from a soldier. A soldier is part of a team, each of the weapons in the platoon is designed to compliment and support the other. SAWs, 240Bs, M203, Mk19, M2, Javelin, M4, M14, M16A2, M16A4, M9 etc. The troops on the ground do there darnest, to maximize the effectiveness of their team. As required they modify the what they need to complete the task at hand. Notice the employment of designated marksman within squads and platoons. What you are seeing today is Iraq and Afghanistan is a flexible and progressive military that is taking advantage of everything they have in the inventory. TTPs are being developed, modified and reviewed all with the aim of making the squad, platoon and company more effective at eliminating the enemy. There is no perfect weapon, no utilitarian firearm that is the best at all things. A weapon is a tool, the platoon commander, like a mechanic, selects the tools he needs to do his job and employs them to the best of their ability. The troops are doing grand work overseas right now.
Throughout this post I hear some of the standard gun rag comments on firearms. I find it really interesting to hear that the M4 and M16 are so unreliable that troops are throwing them away. If you look a little closer, the reason the people were picking them up was their personal defense weapon was an M9 and they found it lacking and wanted a long arm. Tank crews who outstripped their infantry on the advance felt the need rather urgently. This was stretched into troops throwing away there rifles.....During my tour in Afghanistan in 2002 with the 3rd Brigade of the 101st, we had no complaints on the m4 in terms of reliablity or performance. Zero. The concerns were on upgrading the M68 and the issuing of optics. I was surpised to read on my return for Afghanistan, all the problems we had with weapons and ammunition. The point is that the gun rags need something to chat about. The "malfunction" example with the 508th Maintenance is a great one. The troops failed to conduct any sort of weapon maintenance and when they needed them, they failed. Guess what, all weapons need maintenance, even the exaulted AK. If you don't maintain your rifle for over a week in the desert, your going to have problems. That is exactly what happened to the 508th.
The biggest killer on the battlefield today, both in Afghanistan and Iraq are artillery, mortars and air support. The army has snipers and machine guns to cover the 300-900 meter engagement area and concentrates on 300m or less for the rifleman. The future is night fighting and urban, both of which are close range affairs. As noted above, the platoon commander will bring a mix of weapons to the fight and employ them to maximize there performance. For clearing buildings, caves, bunkers and urban fighting, the M4 is doing exactly as it was intended to do. The army does not fight with just the M4, it is a team effort.
No the discussion of the M4 goes in a different direction when we discuss the armed citizen. THe armed citizen has the ability to pick and choose the engagement area and make a well informed guess on the enemy threat in terms of ballistic needs. A firearms instructor once told me to look outside your house and imagine places were a person could position themselves to engage your home. The range in question say 150m would dictate the training ranges that you would need to work at so 150m to 0m. So the M4, loaded with 75 gr TAP or 77OTM might do you just fine. If the distance was longer, you might choose a differnet firearm altogether. Then again you might be served well by the m4 with the 77OTM. The point here is the armed citizen has a wide range of choices for when the zombies come and can prepare accordingly. The soldier on the other hand is part of a complimentary team and the platoon leader or NCO will balance the tools they need to get the job done.
So I would argue that the military does already use the 308 in both machine guns and sniper rifles, it has the M4 for CQB to 300m situations complimented by SAWs, grenades, LAWs AT4, 40mm grenades etc. This brings balance to the force
Systems are being improved and upgraded to adapt and overcome. The military would not be well served by one "hammer" as noted earlier, but rather a robust set of tools all working together. Looking at one portion of the tool box or professing the need for one hammer demonstrates a lack of understand of what is really needed. Flexiblity is the key, there is no perfect weapon.
For the record, I own M14s and AR15s. My two go to rifles are a 10.25 AR15 set up with an aimpoint loaded with 75 gr TAP and my other is a NM M1A. Both my tools in my tool box for me to use.
Jeff
I kind of have to jump in here and comment on a couple of things. I have been lurking and felt the need to contribute!
Firstly there is a big difference in the needs of the individual rifleman in a platoon or company and that of the armed citizen. What you might feel comfortable with fighting zombies or the like is significantly different from a soldier. A soldier is part of a team, each of the weapons in the platoon is designed to compliment and support the other. SAWs, 240Bs, M203, Mk19, M2, Javelin, M4, M14, M16A2, M16A4, M9 etc. The troops on the ground do there darnest, to maximize the effectiveness of their team. As required they modify the what they need to complete the task at hand. Notice the employment of designated marksman within squads and platoons. What you are seeing today is Iraq and Afghanistan is a flexible and progressive military that is taking advantage of everything they have in the inventory. TTPs are being developed, modified and reviewed all with the aim of making the squad, platoon and company more effective at eliminating the enemy. There is no perfect weapon, no utilitarian firearm that is the best at all things. A weapon is a tool, the platoon commander, like a mechanic, selects the tools he needs to do his job and employs them to the best of their ability. The troops are doing grand work overseas right now.
Throughout this post I hear some of the standard gun rag comments on firearms. I find it really interesting to hear that the M4 and M16 are so unreliable that troops are throwing them away. If you look a little closer, the reason the people were picking them up was their personal defense weapon was an M9 and they found it lacking and wanted a long arm. Tank crews who outstripped their infantry on the advance felt the need rather urgently. This was stretched into troops throwing away there rifles.....During my tour in Afghanistan in 2002 with the 3rd Brigade of the 101st, we had no complaints on the m4 in terms of reliablity or performance. Zero. The concerns were on upgrading the M68 and the issuing of optics. I was surpised to read on my return for Afghanistan, all the problems we had with weapons and ammunition. The point is that the gun rags need something to chat about. The "malfunction" example with the 508th Maintenance is a great one. The troops failed to conduct any sort of weapon maintenance and when they needed them, they failed. Guess what, all weapons need maintenance, even the exaulted AK. If you don't maintain your rifle for over a week in the desert, your going to have problems. That is exactly what happened to the 508th.
The biggest killer on the battlefield today, both in Afghanistan and Iraq are artillery, mortars and air support. The army has snipers and machine guns to cover the 300-900 meter engagement area and concentrates on 300m or less for the rifleman. The future is night fighting and urban, both of which are close range affairs. As noted above, the platoon commander will bring a mix of weapons to the fight and employ them to maximize there performance. For clearing buildings, caves, bunkers and urban fighting, the M4 is doing exactly as it was intended to do. The army does not fight with just the M4, it is a team effort.
No the discussion of the M4 goes in a different direction when we discuss the armed citizen. THe armed citizen has the ability to pick and choose the engagement area and make a well informed guess on the enemy threat in terms of ballistic needs. A firearms instructor once told me to look outside your house and imagine places were a person could position themselves to engage your home. The range in question say 150m would dictate the training ranges that you would need to work at so 150m to 0m. So the M4, loaded with 75 gr TAP or 77OTM might do you just fine. If the distance was longer, you might choose a differnet firearm altogether. Then again you might be served well by the m4 with the 77OTM. The point here is the armed citizen has a wide range of choices for when the zombies come and can prepare accordingly. The soldier on the other hand is part of a complimentary team and the platoon leader or NCO will balance the tools they need to get the job done.
So I would argue that the military does already use the 308 in both machine guns and sniper rifles, it has the M4 for CQB to 300m situations complimented by SAWs, grenades, LAWs AT4, 40mm grenades etc. This brings balance to the force
Systems are being improved and upgraded to adapt and overcome. The military would not be well served by one "hammer" as noted earlier, but rather a robust set of tools all working together. Looking at one portion of the tool box or professing the need for one hammer demonstrates a lack of understand of what is really needed. Flexiblity is the key, there is no perfect weapon.For the record, I own M14s and AR15s. My two go to rifles are a 10.25 AR15 set up with an aimpoint loaded with 75 gr TAP and my other is a NM M1A. Both my tools in my tool box for me to use.
Jeff
The Body Bagger
New member
My go to gear of choice isn't listed here and unfortunately its almost impossible and rather illegal to come by for non current military personel or for personal usage by military members:
I would of course like to be able to line the perimeter of my house as most normal red blooded Americans do. Its a damn crying shame fine upstanding citizens or LE personal aren't allowed these for personal use...........
I would of course like to be able to line the perimeter of my house as most normal red blooded Americans do. Its a damn crying shame fine upstanding citizens or LE personal aren't allowed these for personal use...........
wacki, M855 62 gr. green tip is the current issue ammo.
Explained here: http://www.ammo-oracle.com/
Explained here: http://www.ammo-oracle.com/