WTO, seatttle, and the National Guard

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<Donning his abestos suit>

This from my MIL who lives nearby:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The rioting in Seattle continues. It is terrible. These are 'hoods' not
organized protestors. Breaking plate glass windows, graffiti, garbage.
Senator Gorton said Seattle won't get any federal aid to clean up as the
police were too 'permissive'! If they had pounded on them then that
would have been wrong! Now the ACLU has stuck their nose in (surprise,
surprise) and filing a law suit against the police for now allowing the
demonstrators their constitutional right to demonstrate. What about the
rights of the property owner who now has trashed property? It is a
wonder that some one had not brought out a gun! They have constantly
stressed that the police were not armed. One vandal breaking the Nike
store window stated on TV, "they rob money from us, now it is our turn"
as he was wearing Nike shoes. There is no logic to this mayhem just a
chance for the hoods to seize and opportunity for destruction. This is
taking place downtown in the Nordstrom/Bon area. Just a few square
blocks. In 3 days they estimate $1.5 million of destruction. Most
stores are closed during this prime holiday shopping so revenue for those
stores are being lost. People can't go to work. The busses aren't
running. No city should every invite the WPO after Seattle's
experience.[/quote]

If this is really what is going on, I'm quite happy to have the LEO's break it up. We have a constitutional right to peacefully assemble, but this is not a peaceful assembly! It is better to have the LEO's stop it than have it spread to my neighborhood. The bullets I carry aren't rubber. I don't want to use them, but I will if it is necessary.

The bottom line is this: none of us knows what is really happening in Seattle. Playing armchair quarterback is fun, but we can't take sides based on our lack of information. From what little I know, I support the LEO's in their attempts to keep the peace.

As for the possible reaction of LEO's should we ever have to demonstrate for our RKBA, first, most LEO's support our cause, and second, I think we can behave ourselves a little better than these rioters. Can't we?
 
Fair questions, cdf. Let me see if I can calm down and speak rationally. ;)

I’m pretty sure we agree that we (Americans) have the right to peaceably
assemble and “demonstrate”.

Those who assemble have no right to initiate looting. I’m pretty sure we
agree on that.

How the demonstrators may/may not, should/should not, or must/must not
react to violence is too involved to discuss here at the moment. So let’s set
that aside.

My understanding is the vast majority of demonstrators in Seattle were
peaceful. Our opinions as to what the police should do if they block streets
may differ so let’s set THAT aside as well. I have strong feelings on both
sides of the question.

The key (to me) is that a small minority of the demonstrators came to
initiate, provoke, and conduct violence. That’s against the law.

In some cases, the peaceful demonstrators apparently defended business
against the violent protestors. That is good. It would be even better if the
peaceful demonstrators (with their great number) would have been able to
restrain the violent offenders and turn them over to the police. But that
might be too much to ask of non-law enforcement personnel.

However, it is flat wrong to gas, beat, and shoot peaceful demonstrators
because a few of them became violent.

The comparison I was trying to make involved gun owners. Obviously a few
people use guns for criminal purposes. One of our arguments for RKBA is
that the “many” should not be punished because of the “few”. So, if you
and I should not have our guns taken away because of some violent
offender, then the peaceful demonstrators should not be gassed and shot
because of a few violent offenders.

If a person believes that one violent demonstrator justifies gassing, beating,
shooting, and arresting ALL demonstrators, then it would be hypocritical and
illogical to advocate otherwise for gun owners.

I feel this very strongly because I perceive the possibility that we, as gun
owners, may (sometime in the future) be forced to demonstrate for our
RKBA. Already there have been attempts to have rallies and parades in
support of our Second Amendment.

If ONE yahoo in our RKBA parade pulls a gun and shoots a cop, I’m sure you
would agree that would not justify shooting everyone in our parade.

That was my point about turning in your guns if you believe the bad conduct
of a few justifies persecuting the many.
-------

As for American police being brutal or over-reacting, it happens. I have
witnessed it. In Syracuse, NY; Washington, DC; various places in Texas,
Louisiana, Alabama (or Mississippi - I forget), Florida, and California. I also
have witnessed police use less force than I felt should have been used. In
at least some of these cases I know the police violated the law, but I was
not willing to stand up for my own rights in those days - let alone the rights
of other people. That shames me now.

Times and people change. I look at people who assemble and demonstrate
and, in my mind’s eye, envision us assembling in a similar manner. I fear
the authorities will consider us to be “gun nuts” and over-react as I have
seen them do in the past.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the viewpoint that if an officer tells you to do
something and you do not do it as quickly as he desires, he then has the
right to use any level of force in any manner, even if you try to comply.
“Too late sucker! Taste my PR-24!” That has no place in America.
Necessary and adequate force I understand. Beating unconscious people
(as I saw televised from the 1968 Chicago riots) I do not understand and I
will no longer permit it if I can stop it.

As for the media. I’m going on the information in the three threads above
(posted by Oatka). If you choose to believe everything in the media is a lie,
that’s your choice, not mine.

I personally believe that being an American who believes in the Bill of
Rights, I must put up with some untidy people with opinions that I may
very well despise. Further, I must defend them and their right to voice
their opinions or I will lose the right to voice mine.

Therefore, I must stand by the people who demonstrate, even if they
happen to block a street because of their great numbers. Because one day,
some of them might be me and my family demonstrating for our Bill of
Rights.

When such demonstrations turn violent, it is not always the fault of either
side. Those who initiate the violence are the perpetrators - not those who
simply carry placards and chant.

When it comes to demonstrations, think of what some TFLers have
advocated or promised they would do “if”.....

I’m hesitant to deny other the rights I demand for myself.

I trust the majority of the police will react as they have done in the past.
When they are at a major incident with a crowd of other police, they will do
what they are told to do - typically as they were trained to do it.

When we snarl about Waco and Ruby Ridge, let’s not forget Kent State.
Let’s not forget that we may be the next bunch of rabble-rousing
demonstrators. We can not deny others the same rights we claim for
ourselves.

BTW, I’ve never been paintballed, but I would think it is less violent than
rubber bullets. Can we have some expert step in and explain the difference
in the effect on human tissues?
 
I understand your sentiments. We'll just have to see how this all turns out. Our country is at a major crossroads, no one knows were it will be in five years. But always remember that our enemy has always been The Left. They've never given an inch, never backed down and have advantages in political power and media support. As to the future policies of the WTO...hell, at least they aren't the DemocraticNationalCommitee.
 
I have noticed several intresting things about the wto protests.

Its not getting much press in the US because its the left wing groups protesting not right wing, other wise we would hear how the right wing fanatics are out of control and it would be the only story.

The cops are so zealous that they just about had a riot by people who live in one of the nearby neighborhoods, who wanted them out of their neighborhood. The cops were going to use the same tactics on their own residents, who just wanted them to leave.

Look at this cop... http://www.seattle-pi.com/wtogalleries/tuesday/pages/400rubberbullets.shtml
It the people aroud him were violent he would be a gonner. But here he is this Brave LEO blasting people point blank with a bean bag gun. Let me state this for the record I have a lot of friends and have met a lot of really good LEOs but this guy is a loose cannon and needs to find another line of work.

As far as the WTO personally its a bad idea free trade should be negoiated between individual countries not a world body that is responsible to anybody. ie. NAFTA

[This message has been edited by Alan B (edited December 02, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Alan B (edited December 02, 1999).]
 
I've heard varying accounts of this riot. Distilling it all down it appears that there were factions/groups of folks (Steelworkers unions, etc) who were peaceably protesting and there was a group termed the "anarchists from Eugene" who agitated and cranked it up. Apparently the anarchists had planned this and actually told people how and when they would crank it up, they intended to make it get out of hand. They waited till the protest was going and they all met at a place and split off into small groups to go start trouble.
Sbryce is right...there is too much non-info and its way too early to choose sides. I haven't heard anything about serious injuries inflicted by the police, thus comparisons to the 60's demonstrations is unfair to the cops. How the hell are the cops supposed restore order? Should they just go home and turn the streets over to the rioters? Ya'll better decide what you want your cops to do before something happens.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Okay, DC. I'll bite. :D

Here is my *attempt* at general rules about how I want the police to act (I
reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks ;)):

1) The peaceful demonstrators should be permitted to demonstrate -
protected by law enforcement if necessary - and to exercise their First
Amendment guarantees.

2) The law-breaking, violent agitators should be forced to cease and desist
or be arrested. (Resisting arrest also is a crime.)

3) Whatever political, military, paramilitary, civilian, or other powers that
be must be able to tell the difference (between 1 and 2) and act
accordingly.

These are simple rules which may be difficult to apply. However,:

IF peaceful gun owners are punished with the violent ones, it is
unconstitutional oppression.

IF peaceful demonstrators are punished with the violent ones, it is
unconstitutional oppression.

If we should not parse the Second Amendment, we should not parse the Bill
of Rights.

------------

As for Seattle, okay, if it’s too early (in spite of the photographs), I’ll wait.
(quietly: But I won’t wait long.)
 
Preliminary take on the issue:

- A small minority of trouble makers were able to control the city resources and rections. This is a dangerous precedent to accept in light of the First Amendment. A small minority will be available at every protest.

- Any incident of police brutality should be treated as severely as any incident of a protestor attacking an LEO. I've seen several instances of such brutality in the footage.

Alan-
The picture you allude to shows the LEO with his ballistic mask up and his trigger finger straight. The stock is not tucked into his shoulder, but rests above it. I don't know how he got that close to the crowd. However, he was hardly photographed during a "point blank" shooting.
Rich
 
I think on tuesday no ones first amendement rights were violated, until tuesday night when the curfew went into effect. but even then, you were still allowed to protest, just not close enough to the wto delegates to make a difference either way. Its like it always is, a few bad apples ruin the bunch.

rich, in the pic, the guys ballistic mask is up, cuz he can't get it down all the way cuz of the gas mask (just an observation)
the party ended tomorrow

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It ain't mah fault. did I do dat?
 
I'm sure that people on both sides have over reacted.

I deeply believe that we should have the right to peaceful protest-key word here being peaceful.

When things are not peaceful, then we expect/demand that the police control the protest.

No doubt some officer got carried away and did things that wasn't called for. Btw, the protesters are left wingers and the media will go out of it's way to show there side.

As far as the WTO goes, I like free trade.
Most jobs lost to other countries are low paying, low skilled jobs.

Fact is, that highly skilled labor cost more in third world countries. You don't see Micro soft packing up and heading for Mexico do you?

People here must develope skills that are demanded by high tech industry. As others have pointed out, the days of the 35 hour jobs requiring low skills at a union plant are gone.

The protest was organized by liberals and Marxest. It was anti-capitalism, pro socialism.

I believe in capitalism and will always support that economic system which has created the greatest nation on earth.

------------------
The new guy.

"I'm totin, this pistol because my dang SKS won't fit in my holster"
 
Try this link for good info in the situation (although we all know that any info we see is biased and has to be taken with a grain of salt, no matter what the source these days, including and especially the TV):

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/4885/wto/

I gotta go with the protestors on this one. In fact, I wish I were there to add to the numbers. Yes, SOME of these protestors are environmentalists, but there are MANY groups there protesting for different reasons. I wish that we could get gun owners to be this tenacious against big government.
The WTO is just a corporate version of the UN, and I have no doubt they are directly linked. In my mind, the WTO = the UN. Follow the money. There is no coincidence that the UN and the WTO are rising in power at the same time. Nothing would benefit the WTO more than a one world government....that is basically what the WTO is trying to build, but with corporations instead of governments. Call me crazy, but give this a few years to play out and we will see if I am nuts or not. The UN obviously benefits somebody monetarily. Money is what it is all about these days, and someone is behind the UN with a lot of money to be gained. I think that global corporations stand to gain the most.

Not only that, but the way the protestors were treated is a trampling on our Rights as much as a door to door gun search would be. It behooves us to fight Rights infringements and Police brutality on all fronts.
We appeal to other groups to stand up for our Right to bear arms, and we bitch that they only believe in the Rights that they use and none others. Well, we have to be better than them, or we are hypocritical and we have judged ourselves by our own words and standards. We have to respect their Rights and beliefs even if we don't necessarily agree with their stand, and we have to support their Right to peaceably assemble and protest. Those Rights ARE being trampled on as these people are SITTING DOWN in peaceful protests, and getting gassed and shot with rubber bullets, and they are not being allowed to get into public areas to peacefully assemble, as can be seen firsthand in pictures and accounts.


Here are a couple of thoughts of mine after reading the above page:


For one, who really were the black-hooded anarchists who were running amok OUTSIDE of the protest areas and destroying stuff? They sure did ruin the whole peaceful protest, and take the spotlight off the protest, and they were not bothered by Police. Makes you wonder. Hm....where did these black-hooded guys come from...they singlehandedly foiled the protest, made 35,000 people look like criminals instead of peaceful protestors? Something to think about.
Most of all, why were the Police, accoreding to their own words, more interesting in cording off the protest areas and arresting peaceful protestors, than going after the looters? They said themselves that they were more interested in keeping protest areas clear, and did not have the remaining manpower to go after the looters. Does this make any sense? They let the violent looters go crazy while arresting the peaceful protestors for merely sitting in and protesting?

As far as the gun theme goes, keeping with the topic of this forum:
Another thing for us to think about is: the Police locked down parts of the city, and ALLOWED FREE REIGN OF CRIME IN THE REST of the city.
Hm...just like the LA riots, the Police cannot control the criminals. In
other words: YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. Those black-hooded guys were wreaking
havoc while the Police only cared about locking down the downtown, and the
Police themselves said that they did not have time to deal with the rampant
criminals. Looks like once again, no one but YOURSELF will be responsible
for protecting you and yours from bands of criminals. Seems to be a common
theme in riot situations...you better be able to defend yourself from
several home invaders, with NO help on the way, just yourself. Can anyone say: "That would be a real good time to have an "evil assault rifle" to protect your home and family from x number of invaders"?

The TRUTH is, in the end, none of us REALLY know what is going on there, we only hear the filtered news. Many many sources are saying that the far majority of the protestors were totally peaceful. If there were troublemakers, then the Police should take care of them, not everyone else. I have a hard time believing that 35,000 people got out of control and the Police backed them off. Sorry, but the Police could not even back off 1,000 violent rioters. Logic tells us that the violent ones were very few in number.

One thing that the bull-headed Police have never figured out is that FORCE BREEDS FORCE. If protestors are peacfully protesting, then leave them the hell alone. Once the Police step up with their show of force...guess what? Some of the protestors are going to naturally take on a new state of mind.


The downfall of protest in this country was brough on by the LIBERALS who cheered when the Police rubbed ceyenne pepper oil in the eyes of abortion protestors and arrested them and carried them off to prison. The liberals were silent when this happened, because they were glad to be rid of the annoying protestors who did not share their point of view. Well, guess what, the saying that "when they came for you, I didn't protest because I was not you, but then when they came for me there was no one left to fight" rings true now. The liberals promoted this kind of treatment of abortion protestors, and now when they want to do their protest, they are shocked that the Police have stepped up their methods and now they gas and arrest peaceful protestors. The cow has been let out of the barn.

The ACLU is apparently threatening lawsuit etc because the Seattle protestors have not been allowed to walk the streets freely and protest in public places. This is appaerently an infringment on the Rights of the protestors to peacefully assemble where they wish and speak out as they wish. All I have to ask is: where was the ACLU when the abortion protestors were having their Rights violated and they were brutally arrested time after time for sitting in public places in protest. The cow is indeed out of the barn due to the Liberals batting their eye at infringements against conservative groups. I only hope we can get the cow back inthe barn before we have a Police State.



Read the page I linked and look at the pictures and tell me if you think the Police were doing the right thing.

This applies to our cause too: Think about some recent protestors who tried to protest Janet Reno, and she sent in her chronies to arrest them. It was at a stadium event. The protetors found out where she was parking and where the media was. They set up a protest. She got wind of it, circled the block numerous times waiting for them to leave. When they didn't, she had them arrested and scared off by her SS men. That could be YOU AND ME someday. We need to uphold the Rights of everyone to protest, no matter if we agree with them or not.

Don't get me wrong, I am a right wing conservative and I am planning on going into law enforcement as my primary carreer, so I am certainly not anti-cop. But, I still can identify when our Rights are being trampled on by a Police State, even if it is for a view I may or may not agree with.

If nothing else, in the end, I have great respect for these people that believe in a cause. They have balls. If we could get gun-owners to get off their fat asses and show up to protests like this, there would be NO assault on our Rights.
I am quite sure that, if there were a protest needed by gun owners, even though we are tens of MILLIONS strong in Ameica, that there is no way we could get 35,000 people to show up.



[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited December 03, 1999).]
 
I agree with cdf - if an idiot slaps a bull in the face - he better be prepared to get gored.
But many of these protestors where just "there" and they got both gassed and shot by a rubber bullet - IN THE BACK.
That is WRONG on several levels.
The LEOs at that point did indeed become Thugs of the State.

Friend or Foe of Clinton - a Thug is no friend of mine. While I wont publically advocate violence - it would have been interesting to see the Gas and Rubber bullets answered by Molitovs.

As we can see here on this forum, as well as on the news - a Riot is stirring to many people on many levels.

------------------
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
Hey - have you seen the new Ultimate Super Tactical Match Gun?



[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited December 03, 1999).]
 
Rich
My main points about the picture in question are these.

1. The officer is too close to use this weapon without serious injury to the people close at hand

2. The officer is on his own and too close to the crowd, if the crowd was violent he could be dragged in to it before anyone could act to save him. Then what are his fellow officers to do shoot the crowd with real bullets....

3. So what is this Brave LEO trying to
accomplish???

If any one had done something like this in my unit while in the army we would have pulled him of the line as a hazard to himself and to the others. Guess things are different for LEOs after all they get to carry loaded weapons and we never did outside combat.

I was always taught and I always adhere to the following rule "If I draw down with my weapon I will shoot....If someone else draws down on me he is going to shoot.." I think most police officers apply this rule, if you see a gun that reprresents a posible threat and the suspect doesn't drop it, shoot. Why is the fact that this officer does or does not have his finger on the trigger have any relevance? His Intention is clear. The persons who this officer is pointing the weapon at can not see these little tid bits, about the trigger finger and the officers lack of stock weld, and in these peoples mind his intent is clear, to shoot.

Last but not least this LEO has given the world a great Photo op of US police brutality (whether it is or isn't). Long after this incident is long gone and those of us who can recognize the little inconsistencies of this photo have discussed it to death and decide he is not firing at this point, the average anti law and order type will remember this as something else. A mean vicious police force lording over the innocent protestors..(god I don’t believe I wrote that, I’ would hate give them Ideas). By being photographed this close in that pose the officer has crossed over that invisible line from trying to enforce a valid order to demanding obedience by threat of bodily harm (after he is an LEO not a combat soldier), to people who are not offering any more than passive resistance. If they were not peaceful would he have got that close??

There was a hard core group bent on violence but the police and the non violent protestors need to stop escalating the problem. Now of these two groups, the Police are the group that is supposed to be well trained and organized so which one should show some restraint and control over is members.

I have seen a lot of photos of cops helping protestors who got gassed or sprayed, Helping them up, leading them to the side and helping to wash the irritants form their eyes (the media doesn’t like so show those)…. But this is the photo that is probably going to become famous..
It’s the old adage it takes half dozen ata boys to cover an aw $hit and this was a lou lou.
 
While I agree that only a small minority of the protesters were looting and destroying shops, I DISAGREE with the notion that the rest were "peaceful."

Most of these "peaceful" protesters blocked free traffic of WTO delegates AND they often attacked and pounced on the delegates and their escorts. This kind of a behavior is NOT peaceful. When you protest, you CANNOT prevent others from going about their business and you certainly CANNOT physically assault them and restrain them.

Even the left-leaning governor of Iowa, Tom Vilsack (D), was attacked by some of these "peaceful" protesters when he tried to leave his hotel and his escort of Iowa State Patrol officers was beaten and kicked (as a matter of fact, even then they did not respond as they wanted to escort the governor out of that areas as quickly and as safely possible).

Just because these protesters suddently turn into meek lambs when the police shows up does not mean that they were not being violent.

In the same website that shows the cop firing a rubber/bean gun (I think on the website of the Seattle Post-Intelligencer), there is a picture of a terrified delegate being attacked by the "peaceful" protesters, including a woman who was choking him. I have no doubt how she would have behaved (like a poor victim of police brutality) if the police showed up right then to arrest her and the rest of the crowd.

Note that these attacks on delegates occurred again and again, but to this date, this particular photo is the only one I've seen on any medium. Guess it's more exciting for the left-leaning media to show the poor women being hauled off to jail than show what these poor victims were doing before the police showed up.

Skorzeny

------------------
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
I am getting emails from residents+cops and I still have no coherent idea as to what's heppening there. Pics are too easy to edit through omission, cropping, captioning to be all that useful.

One item I did notice, a caption: "
City worker Virginia Sawyer dons a gask mask while using solvent to remove graffiti from a banner on a downtown street corner.

I thought that gas masks were just made illegal there...or is it only for the peasants?

BTW, while I am tentatively disliking the protestors in this case, I think they make a great case study for us.
 
Many intellegent obvservations here on TFL.
As to the pic of the "lone" LEO, I'm damn sure he wasn't alone. If the frame could be magicaly expanded, ala bladerunner, you'd see at least a dozen LOE's at his six. With respect to his being too close to the first echelon of long-hairs to use his 37mm low-pressure launcher;most likely he was at the ready to fire at rock throwers further behind, also out of frame. Maybe I'm all wrong of cource, but when in doubt in a riot sit I side with the LOE's.
Follow the money...Well the UN doesn't have very much money whatsoever. It is a glorified committe unable to do anything unless participating countries agree first.
Threat of a world government, barcodes sign of the beast, etc. A single governing body controlling the entire world, or most of it is unlikely in the extreme. The mechanics of governing such large numbers prohibit this. Look at the state of California. It's just one state. But it is so populous and hard to manage that there is talk of splitting it into two states. It realy don't beleive the UN is on the brink of releasing it's secret armies of forein troops in the American heartland. And a nice barcode tatoo would look pretty cool...
Back to the nature of the WTO: It is an aparatus for corperations(PRIVATE companies)to combat isolationist anti-business governments. A robust world economy hampers UN growth. With a thriving world economic system and stable markets there is less cause for the UN committee to stick it's baby-blue nose in local crisis. Strong economies empower nations, not the United Nations. The healthy freemarket is an enemy of big government. Why do you think our Beloved Socialists in Washinton constanly raise taxes, especialy Capitol gaines taxes?
 
They used rubber bullets, none were lead.
No cops or demonstrators were found dead!
We’ll discuss this more, it’s true,
So we’ll continue on “Part two”!

My dog’s Robert Louis, we call him “R.L.”
That pooch writes this doggerel!
So please don’t gripe, or moan and groan!
‘Cause R.L. will bite you clear to the bone!

(And awaaaaaayyyy we go!)
 
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