WTO, seatttle, and the National Guard

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chink

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Well, the national Guard has been called into Seattle and acurfew is in place.
No Anti-Gov't rhetoric from me, not Anti-WTO rhetoric either, Just Observations
Unions aren't necessarily bad, they are just communist
and the WTO will never have there little get togethers in Democratic nations with a first amendment ever again.
Next time they'll probably pick China, cuz we know that the Chinese can clear the streets real quick if they have to

********EDIT/REVISED OPINION**********
unions aren't neccessarily communist either. the help working class people get a fair deal. But the also raise labor costs in the US which makes companies move work overseas.

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It ain't mah fault. did I do dat?

[This message has been edited by chink (edited December 01, 1999).]
 
Chink,

Could you offer some more details on what is happening in Seattle?

Your post is not very clear.

What is WTO and what do unions have to do with the National Guard?

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
John/az2:

WTO is the World Trade Organization and it promotes free trade among the nations of the world.

Many left leaning groups, ranging from "environmentalists" to several large union organizations oppose the activities of the WTO on the grounds that it is a "stooge" of the multi-national corporations and that it degrades environmental, health and labor protection.

Despite earlier promises to the contrary, some of these protesters turned very violent at the protests in Seattle (where the WTO delegations from the world are meeting). Police responded by using tear gas to clear the illegal demonstrations and 200 National Guardsmen who are trained in crowd control techniques have been activated Governor Gary Locke (D) of Washington.

There has been a state of emergency declared in the City of Seattle and there was a curfew last night.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
IMHO, unions are neither bad nor communist per se, and neither are corporations, multinational or otherwise. Those perceptions come from one or the other recieving unconstitutional government preference.

ie, if the unions demand extreme wages during a period of high unemployment, the company involved should be ABLE to legally fire them all and hire new workers. That is not the case. When that IS done, union workers have a tendency to blockade replacement workers and assault them physically both en route to work and at home, and police do nothing.

Many years ago, the situation was reversed, and was just as bad. If you tried to unionize a company, you got your legs broken or worse. So we have gone from one side to the other insofar as the government is concerned, when they should butt out. If American workers charge too much for their labor (more than it is worth) then American companies should feel absolutely free (don'cha love that word?) to take their manufacturing centers overseas. If unions don't like that, they can boycott that producer in the future and try to get others to join them. Fine. We'll see how the free market decides at that point.

But "our" government refuses to let ANY of these things happen without interference. It feels the need to control absolutely everything that happens, today that means anywhere in the world, not just in the US. It will never work, of course, but just as in so many other things, gun control being a prime example, failure of the last attempt to have any beneficial result translates into the next attempt being even more restrictive and controlling, due to the slimeball politician being for the most part unwilling to say "OOoops! We screwed that one up, let us repeal that regulation and stay out of it from now on."
 
Here are some links, all of which have excellent additional links. Too long to post -- all you ever wanted to know . . .

Police haul hundreds to jail -- http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/prot_19991201.html

WTO delegates get on with business -- http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/wtoo_19991201.html

Free-speech rights vs. protest ban -- http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/free_19991201.html

It kills me to say this, but I side with the protesters on this one. "The Global Economy" is corporate shorthand for "Who will work the cheapest?". We are all competing against every Third World worker. If the corporations could get away with paying Third World wages to Americans, they'd be back here in a flash.

I honest to God think that one week after one of our Landers reports that there is life on Mars, a second Lander will be there to build new factories and sign up the cheaper labor.

Japan dumped the Mexican workers when they found the Bangladesh peons would work for even less, and so it goes.

Notice that the prices don't drop in proportion though -- SOMEBODY (look in the mirror) has to pay for those $60-million bonuses the CEOs get.

What none of those corporation realize is that they are laying off their customers, and when things start to unravel, they'll call for the government to suppress that
"subversive rabble" like they did in the past. History doesn't exactly repeat itself but it sure does echo.


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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 
Relax guys...

8 yrs of socialist BS and now the chickens come home to roost. His Billness cultivated and nurtured this stuff, stirred them up, let them think they had power and influence. They exercise it and bingo...tear gas and clubs. And now His Billness is in the role of Nixon/Reagan with the Nat'l Guard.

Be sure ye sins will find you out

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
It really is a case of the jobs going to the lowest bidder, and that is the nature of a free market.Years ago I used to bid on jobs and usually got every job that I bid on. It didn't take me long to figure why I was the low bidder. These third world countries will soon raise their bids when their leaders realize that they are leaving a lot on the table.


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Better days to be,

Ed
 
I am no neither side on this one.
the WTO has as much right to tell countries how to run thier economies as the US does None.

The protesters are for organized labor, which I am against, because in theory its communist, although in practice it does get workers better conditions.

and the "rioters" (in quotes cuz a real riot [see LA after Rodney King] would have cause me damage) are just there to make trouble which is always wrong

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It ain't mah fault. did I do dat?
 
I debated whether to buy into this, as it's an American concern and I'm not American. However, I decided that what I wanted to say was an observation, and not a criticism.

This incident has received big media coverage here -- newspapers, radio and television.

What disturbed -- and saddened -- me most was the footage of police/National Guards firing teargas, pepper spray and even rubber bullets at protesters. There was even talk of concussion grenades being used!

There have been many discussions in the past on TFL about gun confiscation and whether Americans would fire on fellow Americans if push came to shove.

Rubber bullets and "real" bullets are only a matter of degree.

Now the authorities are saying their efforts to quell the protest were an "overreaction". It would have been too late for apologies had live ammo been used.

B
 
I also side with the protesters, and it does give me fits. Qoute: "anyone coming to this area to protest will be arrested!" Now that is SCARY! I cannot BELIEVE this is happening in America. Lots of video showing police brutality. no mention on major news networks. Saw a man with about 30-40 deep bruises on his thigh from the .68 cal. paint guns the cops are using to shoot protesters. The extent of the bruises and their concentration could have only been caused at extereme close range and while he was held still. Someone did that to me, he would meet my Glock. No question. I don't care who it is. I hope they have the numbers to take the downtown. This is OUR country. Not Bill's. not the UN's. Those people gassing, beating and shooting Americans are OUR public SERVANTS. I've been following this closely, and there was no vandalism until the press pointed out to the local deliquents that the stores were vulnerable. The protesters aren't wasting time smashing up Starbucks. If I was close enough, I would be there, if only to protest the protesters treatment! You should read some of the comments on the LEO boards.
"If it was me, I'd drive that APC right through the crowd"
"Did you see that protester get the facefull of CS from that huge canister? Yeah!"
These examples are not the extreme. These Public Servants actually see no problem with that. This is the State of our Country.
 
I knew the protests were coming; they've been well publicized. I just got in from hunting this evening; CNN Headlines only showed the arrests, but did not show the violence they only spoke of.

So we don't really know how violent the protesters got...And so I'm not at all upset with The Law, having seen only one side of a possibly biased bit of filming...

DaveAA, I'm playing a bit of Devil's Advocate, here. I remember the "Police Riot" in Chicago in 1968 during the Democratic National Convention. It was maybe two days later before the media let us know that the protesters were throwing bags of urine and feces at the police, as well as tennis balls with long nails poked through them. "No provocation" my left hind foot! Crowd control with a mob run amok is scarier than a domestic dispute, from a cop's point of view.

As for the WTO itself, I highly recommend the commentaries at http://www.stratfor.com for some pretty good insight. Overall, that's a great Site for daily updates with no media spin.

After NAFTA, several US companies moved back to the US from Mexico. With no high tariffs, the greater productivity here allowed competitive pricing for their sales into Mexico. And many companies move overseas not for the cheaper labor, but for the lower environmental-protections standards/costs.

Later, Art
 
Art,
The police are not the courts. Although the police may have been provoked, the pictures on German TV of police beating young females as they cowered on the ground nearly (or actually) unconscious are burned into my memory.

The police used excessive force. They were out for revenge and that is NOT law enforcement.

When the police ordered the demonstrators to leave and they did not leave, the police then prevented the demonstrators from leaving. I have no problem with police securing the people they plan to arrest.

But when, during the "arrest", the police beat unconsious, defenseless demonstrators, that is illegal. Period. "Provoked" or not.

Again, I'm not addressing the moral or emotional justification (which police are supposed to be "above"), only the legal justification - and there was too little legal justification for that "police riot".

Another point, why did it take the media two days to report the provocations. Were these provocations real or created to justify the excessive police force? If real, how wide-spread were these "provocations"?

We bitch because of gun laws enacted due to the "provocation" of Hinckley(sp?) shooting President Reagan. That is no more immoral than beating everyone for the actions of a few.

In one respect, the 1968 riot is like the Waco incident. Even if for those people who were there, there was so much happening over so great an area, that even the participants (on both sides) won't have the full story. There will be omissions and exaggerations on both sides.

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited December 02, 1999).]
 
I for one am AMAZED at how little press this has recived here. It was NOT a top story on this mornings news (since the CURFEW IS IN EFFECT DURING THE DAYLIGHT AS WELL), so I guess the situation was "handled". Damn, I guess the Greeks aren't the ONLY ones withan AXE to grind over US foriegn policy.

So let me GET this STRAIGHT.. BILL and AL are gassing organized labor and environmental activists over WTO being able to meet "in peace". Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot.

I have heard ALL KINDS of wierd stories about the "demonstration/riot" in Seattle and not one of them makes much sense... tear gassing people staging a sit-in, telling people NOT to enter a certain area then NOT erecting barricades across the boundary.. rubber bullets and flash bangs?? is this belfast or berkley or what??

REMEMBER BILL AND HILLARY and AL.. that was YOU 30 years ago. You won the sixties were all about peace love and ... HEY SMASH THOSE NO GOOD TROUBLE MAKERS TEETH IN!!! Now where was I .. ah yes ... love and understanding.

The more things change the more they stay the same. Wonder if gun and ammunition sales have stopped under martial law in the seattle area??? Its a sad day in america.. but also PROOF that activism is NOT dead.

Dr.Rob
 
I don't want to take sides here, but the fact is that there were violent demonstrators who were disrupting the proceedings.

Whether I agree or not with the aims of the demonstrators, I firmly believe in their right to protest peacefully and legally.

However, preventing officials from meeting and then attacking them (or more likely their entourage) as they leave their hotels are NOT legal, peaceful protests. Then there are others who smashed windows of various businesses either for ideological reasons or for fun & profit.

While I abhor police brutality, the fact is that many of the demonstrations were illegal and had to be cleared with force. It's unfortunate, but true.

As for large multi-nationals, they do not always seek lower wage countries. What they seek is profit maximization (as high a price as possible per supply and demand, and as low a cost, not just labor cost, the whole cost as possible).

I mean, you don't see Boeing moving its aircraft design facility to Mexico or Bangladesh, do you? Conversely, why should Nike pay $35 to a worker to sew a pair shoes, when it can get the exact same work done for $3.50? It can then use the money for things such as marketing (hmmm, I wonder how much Michael Jordan gets paid for his endorsements?), which is what really sells the shoes.

The moral lesson of this for the "average joe" worker is this: there is now competition in the whole world, not just the US - don't expect to be paid $35 per hour for doing $3.50 per hour work (sewing shoes for example). It's time to learn some new skills, which pay better (if that is your goal).

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
"Block by block, officers fired canisters of gas into the crowds with a terrifying boom. Then they shot rubber bullets into the backs of protesters even as they ran away."

Once the crowd is "broken up" and fleeing, why is it necessary to shot those who flee?

Just to "teach them a lesson?"

What a shame the peaceful protesters could not work with the police (and vice versa) to apprehend those who violated their First Amendment rights (with violence).

That would have been preferable to suspending those rights for everyone but the police.

I keep trying to remember that those protesters could be us peacefully demonstrating for our RKBA. If one of our demonstrators pulled a handgun, by applying the "Seattle logic", the National Guard should shoot us all.

Rember the phrase, "To save the village we had to destroy it"?
 
Good afternoon gentlemen,
I would forst like to say that these protests and the insuing violence were planned by a coalition of leftist groups. Leftists have always(in modern times)mastered the art ov making the police look like unproffessional thugs. They have various techniques to do this, they thrive on it. They will strike a policeofficer with a blunt instrument and then look all terrifiead and pained when they get restrained, just in time for the camera shot. I do not side with the protesters. Most of them are the same brand of Trotskiets and anarchists we dealt with in the 1960's. They will never have a shred of simpathy from me.
The WorldTradeOrganization I have no problem with. The Unions hate it, the fanatic Leftists hate it, Clinton hates it, therefore I like it.
I know about the problem with overseas labor costs and exchange rates. However Isolationism has never worked, and tarrifs/sanctions slow down the real global economy and ad to it's instability and general market volatility. It plays hell with consumer and trader confidence.
The global economy is real and still developing. The world is transitioning away from the old national-based industial economy, to a faster-than-light information economy. It is fact that as these new techniques and technologies spread, the global standard of living will increase, and exchange rates will become less drastic.
To oppose The WTO is to kick Capitaloism in the balls. The Socialists would like nothing beter. They would love more tarriffs, more sanctions, anything to screw with the market. Know your allies and back them.
 
Additional. Those NationalGaurd troops are unarmed. No Gaurdsman fired anyhting at any body. And since when do we automaticaly beleive everything the Leftwing national media tell us about how evil and mean our own LEO's are?
 
Read it again, cdf. It says "officers" - not the national guard.

Then read the referenced urls. Rubber bullets were used.

Also, to pick your friends and allies by assuming that the enemies of your enemies must be your friends will put you in bed with some pretty strange folks!

Not all of Clinton's friends are our enemies.
Not all of Clinton's enemies are our friends.

Regardless of the provocation, excessive force is excessive. Shooting people as they leave after you have forced them to leave is unnecessary - therefore it is excessive.

Now don't twist my intent. I am not trying to defend the violence committed by the minority of demonstrators. I am defending the right of the people to peaceably assemble. That right was abused by a few, and refused for the many. That's wrong. If you think otherwise, then you should surrender your firearms to the police because a few people use guns in crimes.

Non sequiter, my friend.
 
I don't beleive what the media say about police over reacting and being to brutal. And I don't beleive protesters should be able to block streets and do as they please. And these lefty protesters have sympathy from the media and love to manipulate events. I don't trust them or CNN.
I am much more likely to trust the cops at the scene, not the guys in the tie-dyes and torn up corderoy pants. Now it wasn't just your postings I was responding to, my friend, but it looked like everyone was incinced that ARNG was called in and was simply pointing out that those poor guys are un armed. And as to the paintballing, I've been paintballed plenty. Yeah, it stings, leaves marks. Big deal. If I take it for fun they can take it for unlawfull assembly.
Support anti-gun? Why would you say that?
The WTO is on the side of less Government interfearance. That is a good thing. When has the Government stepped in and solved our problems? We need to return to a free market and the WTO can help. Who else will? I figure that supporting the NRA and the WTO should be hand in hand. Again, I apologize for my unique spelling; I type faster than I have the skill for.
 
CDF

I have read that they aren't using paintballs in the paintball guns, they are modified to shoot powered pepper spray. SHould hurt less and a paintball.
Most of the labor people when there to protest peacefully, hell, a couple local union people were in the no protesting zone cleaning up the mess that the "rioters" left. But I'm sure there were groups of radicals that went with the expressed purpose of creating choas. they succeeded. I think the Cops are more right than the protesters are, but neither is completely blameless

The WTO had not enforcement and is stifling 3rd world development. because they impose enviromental rules that amke it impossible for the 3rd world to upgrade to industrial. the creatation of factories and manf processes are very pollution heavy until you can get the money to upgrade the technology.
Also, if we want to place 1000% tarriffs on products coming from Germany why should an organization tell us we can't? If Japan wants to charge 10000% on all imports why shouldn't they be allowed to?
I just think that governments, not some governing body without any enforcement, should run national economies.

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It ain't mah fault. did I do dat?
 
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