Wrong Primer - What would you do?

Reloadron Read what I said agian. I said Small Pistol Magnum = Small Rifle. CCI 550 = CCI 400 I did NOT say Small Rifle Magnum.

When I posed that very question to CCI I was told they are not the same and use different priming mixtures. This is why I suggested from my first post in this thread the OP call CCI. Takes a few min.

The OP clearly stated:
After finishing, I noticed that my white box of CCI Small Rifle Magnum Primers I had just used were actually a white box CCI Small Pistol Magnum Primers.

So I posted images of same. However, as long as you mention Small Pistol Magnum and Small rifle:
CCI-400-CCI-500-A.png


They are not the same and not the same mix at all. That is what CCI told me and what the picture reflects. Nothing else I can say on this.

Ron
 
I can tell you right now, that CCI large pistol primers will pierce in a
500 S&W... which operates at 5% lower pressure than the 454 Casull

That said, QL tells me you're going to be operating in the 42,000 psi
regime with that load -- 20% higher than a full up 357Mag

I'd pull them....
 
Ironically, CCI 400 lot F26R and CCI 550 Lots B07M & F17L visually look identical. So unless CCI changed something major in the last 2 years (like when Fed 200's were SR & SPM and the suddenly were not) I will personally go with what I was told by tech support and a rep in person.

Do what you want.

Believe what you want.


Colors can be added. Some still believe that W231 and HP38 are different powders.
 
Found it. This is what CCI had to say:

From: Me
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 5:55 AM
To: cciexpert <cciexpert@VistaOutdoor.com>
Subject: CCI Ammo - Ask the Expert Form


Ronald Blain
ron@bearblain.com
21961 Louis Road
Bedford Heights Ohio 44146 USA


Are CCI 400 small rifle and CCI 550 small pistol magnum actually one in the same primer with identical thickness and charge?
Thank You

That was my question posed to CCI, below is their response:

Ronald, these are not the same exact primer and you should never mix reloading components.





Make Every Shot Count!
Justin M.
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
CCI/Speer
(800)379-1732

Now if you have something concrete have at it but CCI will always give the same response. I knew I saved that email response.

Ron
 
Getting back to the first post, no this should not have happened. After reloading one type of round clean up the bench and put everything away in their correct containers.

Each time you start over double check everything.
 
Getting back to the first post, no this should not have happened. After reloading one type of round clean up the bench and put everything away in their correct containers.

Each time you start over double check everything.

This is exactly the way I do it.........Nothing on the bench that's not being used for the loads being put together at that time.

I'd pull them.............
 
If they're magnum primers, I'd take a chance and keep a close eye on the primers for piercing.

T. O'Heir said:
"...454 Casull rounds call for small rifle primers..." The magnum primers are about the POWDER, not the cartridge or pressures. Win 296 does not require magnum primers.
Original .454 Casull loads used Remington 7 1/2 SR BR primers. I really don't think you have anything to worry about though. 25gr of W296 isn't that hot for a Casull.
I beg to differ with your first statement, which you happened to contradict with your second statement, anyway.

It IS about the pressure.

PRESSURE is the same reason for .327 Federal, .460 S&W, and .500 S&W and other 'high pressure' handgun cartridges calling for rifle primers.

It isn't about igniting the powder charge. Do you really think ATK and Ruger decided that a rifle primer was necessary to ignite 13 grains of handgun powder for .327 Federal?
It's about containing the 45K+ psi.



You can flip it on its head and look at it from the other side, as well, where 'rifle' cartridges call for pistol primers.
.458 SOCOM uses large pistol primers. Why? Because chamber pressure is limited to 36k psi, and a rifle primer is unnecessary - even with 45+ gr powder charges (including rifle powders).
And then there's .22 Hornet, and more...
 
I don't understand all the hoop-la over the 50 rounds. Shoot them. If the primers get pierced so what. As long as the rounds go bang and the gun functions no harm done.
 
I had resolved this issue before I ever posted. That's why my question was "What would YOU do" and not "What should I do". :D

First, small rifle primers have a similar type burn to small pistol magnum primers, but are made to withstand higher pressure. This is why powders like 296 that always recommend a MAGNUM pistol primer ignite just fine with small non-magnum rifle primers. Small Rifle Magnum primers burn a little hotter, and a little longer than standard Small Rifle or Magnum Small Pistol primers, made for the slower range of rifle powders used in small primer rifle rounds. Not really necessary for 296, but can't hurt, and was specified in my original load data some 25 years ago.

By the way, CCI Small Pistol Mag, and Small Rifle Mag primers are visually different (with magnifier:D) as mentioned. Different color, slightly different anvil and 25gr of 296 under a 340gr bullet is hardly a light load in 454.

So, the biggest danger of firing these was a pierced primer, which is hardly an end of the world scenario. Maybe problematic if shot continuously.

Large rifle and pistol primers have different dimensions. Also, a simple matter of physics and support structure, a larger primer will pierce easier than a small primer of the same material, so the mentions of them doing so do not surprise me. Had this been a 30-06, I'd have been a lot more concerned about a complete firing pin sized hole, and not the smoky pinhole I'd expect from a small primer. It is a lot more common to find small pistol primers employed in a few small rifle cartridges where loaders claim better accuracy with certain recipes on the upper pressure edges.

So what did I do?

If you said "just shoot them and watch carefully for pierced primers", we are like thinkers. Incidentally, they shot fine, with no issues You can not visually tell the difference between these spent rounds, and ones using the correct primer. Accuracy was not great, but it will take another loading with the Rifle primers to see if the primer was even a factor.

I've been loading for 30 years, 454 Casull for 25. This was not a matter of a messy work bench or primers left out, etc. I simply grabbed the "white box" out of habit without reading the label, as they bother look a lot alike. I took an orange marker and painted a stripes on the sides of the Small Pistol Magnum primers to prevent myself from this mistake in the future. (I also mark Hodgdon powders these days as well) My brain processes pictures more quickly than text.

Thanks for all who played! Sorry, no prizes other than hopefully learning something. I'm not at all implying that Small Pistol Primers are okay for rifle pressures are anticipated. I'm just saying there is no need to panic as they may still be within the crossover threshold, and even if they cross that threshold and you get pierced primers, it's hardly catastrophic to find out. Nothing wrong with sticking to instructions by the letter, unless you forget to think about why they give you those specific guidelines, and that the specified numbers do not indicate a cliff at which point a safe load turns into a dangerous failure. The neat thing about reloading is that there is incremental warnings between those two points.
 
By the way, CCI Small Pistol Mag, and Small Rifle Mag primers are visually different (with magnifier) as mentioned. Different color, slightly different anvil and 25gr of 296 under a 340gr bullet is hardly a light load in 454.

The priming mix is different. The following from our friends at CCI:
Asked Yesterday:
Ronald Blain
ron@bearblain.com
21961 Louis Road
Bedford Heights Ohio 44146 USA


Over and over again I see claims that CCI 450 SRM primers are the same thing as CCI 550 SPM primers and the list goes on. You folks were kind enough to email me the particulars some time back but alas, the email was lost in a computer crash. My contention has always been that primers are different for different applications and NO the cake mixes (priming mixtures) are not the same.

Thank You
Ron L. Blain

I hear that all the time and all the time CCI says differently:

Ronald, the CCI 450 and the CCI 550 are not the same primer. The difference is in the mix.




Justin M./Technical Service Rep.
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
Alliant/Blazer/CCI/Speer
(800)379-1732

Feel free to call or email Justin. Worth noting is the cup thickness is the same at about 0.025". The mix doesn't matter much as long as you get good ignition of the powder you are igniting.

Ron
 
TimSr, I would like to help you but I am going to be sort of busy, I raised the handle on one of my Rock Chuckers and felt a small bump/click. It was about that time I said to myself; "what! ?" It was about that time I pushed the handle to the rear and it went to the rear and then the ram fell out the bottom. I no longer have a dog I can blame and my wife has never messed with one of my presses. My wife said it could not have been our granddaughter because she is at camp.

I am going to call RCBS, I hope they do not remember I am the one that said the Rock Chucker does not cam over.

If there is a difference in the height of the primers pull the bullets even if they have a heavy crimp.

If there is a difference in the height of the primers I would pull the bullets and start over. I have primers that are color coded. It helps when sorting and preventing mistakes.

F. Guffey
 
The CCI 450 Small Rifle Magnum on the left clearly uses a yellowish cake mix while the CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum on the right uses a redish in color cake mix. The priming compounds do not look the same to me. I figure you should call CCI and get your own straight dope from them. Takes 5 min and will certainly get you some good reliable dope.

Ron

Ron, what you are seeing under the anvils of those primers is a paper disc put over the primer pellet mix. You can't actually see the primer pellet without taking the primer apart. I don't suggest you go prying the anvil out, then try to get that paper disc off the top of the pellet. Primers have to be hit hard to go bang, but I wouldn't go scratching around on the pellet.

I spent the last couple of hours looking for a drawing I saw once of the parts of a modern primer. Can't find it, but it clearly showed the paper disc on top of the pellet, under the anvil. The paper disc is used because the priming compound/pellet is put in the primer cup wet , is like a paste. It sticks to the punch that's placing it in the bottom of the cup. The paper disc prevents that. It can be any color they choose, but all primers of the same designation are the same color,(color coded).
 
Speer 12 has that picture on page 36. ;) That color code would be a "difference" making them not 'exactly' the same. And color codes can and do change over time.
 
Ron, what you are seeing under the anvils of those primers is a paper disc put over the primer pellet mix. You can't actually see the primer pellet without taking the primer apart. I don't suggest you go prying the anvil out, then try to get that paper disc off the top of the pellet. Primers have to be hit hard to go bang, but I wouldn't go scratching around on the pellet.

I spent the last couple of hours looking for a drawing I saw once of the parts of a modern primer. Can't find it, but it clearly showed the paper disc on top of the pellet, under the anvil. The paper disc is used because the priming compound/pellet is put in the primer cup wet , is like a paste. It sticks to the punch that's placing it in the bottom of the cup. The paper disc prevents that. It can be any color they choose, but all primers of the same designation are the same color,(color coded).
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That was my initial thought, it was the paper disc. But up close and personal it looks like a blob and the colors clearly change. Nope, I am not about to shove a pin or anything else in there to pry the anvil out. I am content wth what the guys who made the primers have to say. :)

My entire point in what became an exercise in futility was to convey that certain primers are not the same contrary to some popular belief. The solution is simple as a call or email to the guys who make them and that includes other manufacturers besides CCI.

Then too, when it comes to primers or other components people are welcome to believe as they choose. Anyway, yes, should be the protective paper disc but why does it resemble a blob partially squished below the anvil? I have some Winchester STD/Mag large pistol and several others and they clearly have the look of the disc. Only the CCI have the look of a blob for want of a better word. Not going to lose any sleep over it but seeps peculiar. :)

Ron
 
I am not worried about the height of the cup.
I am not worried about the primer piercing if the fit of the firing pin to firing pin hole in the breech face is good.
I do not know if the primer will set off the ball powder, even with heavy crimp.
The threshold of what primer, what crimp, and ball powder is never where I think I it going to be, and I am changing the map with each experiment.
And I hate pulling crimped cast bullets... but that would be less trouble than the following experiment to determine safety margin with that load:
1) Work up until the primer pierces.
2) Work up until the primer will not set off that much ball powder.
3) Work down until the primer will not set off that little ball powder.

Too much trouble. Pull the bullets.
 
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