Written essay in order to get your pistol permit?

I will bet that each of us can name at least a handful of very literate people that we view as 'stupid'. Wisdom and responsibility are not learned from reading books or writing essays, or even on having the ability to.

Safely using a gun and being wise and responsible enough to carry one around in public are two very different things.

And neither has any bearing or relevance to a persons skill level.

Nor do they have any bearing on an individuals constitutional rights. I had said that I knew that you had not intended to deprive that couple's right to defend themselves. I may have been wrong.
 
It's not rocket science to glean the couple's motivation in making that purchase. Possibly their dire need to do so.

I know MurBob, that your intent would not be to deny this gentleman and his wife the ability to defend themselves in the face of such unrest.

Literacy has no more bearing on an American citizen's constitutional inalienable rights than his or her FICO score does. That kind of thinking is exactly what we're trying to combat from the opposition in my opinion.

You're pointing out a flaw in my idea of a better method for gun control.... That's good.. unlike most politicians and some of the other morons we have writing laws, I'm a person who listens, learns, and adjusts as necessary.

You are right that my proposed rules would have denied what was probably a perfectly acceptable gun sale to a nice older couple.. I guess no rule is going to be perfect but I think we can do better than what we have now.

I still stand by my original idea. While not perfect, it's hard to argue that stupid people do lots of stupid things and tend to be more aggressive.

Its good to see real world feedback because I never imagined some frail older couple just looking to defend themselves. Maybe the grew up on some country farm back in the old days before basic education was ubiquitously available. My vision was of some gang banger inner city thug who just happens to have a clean record because he hasn't been caught yet... or some drunken back wood's redneck who couldn't finish basic high school.

Kind of strange to think that Martha Stewart can't have a gun... sort of a polar opposite of your old couple example.
 
I will bet that each of us can name at least a handful of very literate people that we view as 'stupid'.
More than a handful! LOL


Wisdom and responsibility are not learned from reading books or writing essays, or even on having the ability to.

I would emphatically disagree with that. Education is absolutely a prerequisite for wisdom and responsibility.
 
Education is absolutely a prerequisite for wisdom and responsibility.

I would agree with this, entirely. Would you agree that Formal education is not the only acceptable form?

I see two basic schools of thought, those that believe that some sort of test or proof is necessary before permission is granted.

The other believes that this is prior restraint on our rights. It seems callous today, but in an earlier era it was accepted that some people would do bad, or just stupid things (with guns, or about anything else) but until they did, IF they did, their freedoms were not restricted.

And, IF they did such things, serious steps were taken to ensure that they never were able to do it again.

It seems like a good idea, requiring a certain level of competence testing, right? However, on a certain level its the same thing as requiring a written essay or whatever it is that the powers that be decide you have to prove to be "acceptable". In extreme cases this is a really, really, really bad thing.

When those in power get to choose who the "right" people are, history says it is a bad thing for those not "chosen".

And this is what many gun control laws do, give some people the authority to choose who is, and is not the "right" kind of people.
 
I guess no rule is going to be perfect but I think we can do better than what we have now.

I do agree with this entirely. I also believe that great prudence is necessary in order to not dismantle the second amendment in our attempt to do better.

I've always told my sons that it is not really a question of political party when it comes to politics, but more a question of an ideology. Namely whether liberal or conservative.
Presented with a seemingly good idea, a liberal tends to accept it at face value and run with it, where as a conservative tends to scrutinize it before accepting it, asking where it may lead us, and weighs the consequences of running with it. This is obviously oversimplified, but it is not necessarily wrong.

Without question the writers of our constitution fell into the latter category, and wrote it with great prudence. Not all of the attempts to run with good ideas since regarding it, have proved to actually be good ideas.

I don't believe that changing and placing more restrictions or limitations on their original writing is a good idea in any way. Certainly not in the form of allowing an individual or group to govern whether or not someone is worthy of enjoying the rights granted by what they wrote, based on how they jump through a hoop... such as writing an essay or their ability to do so.
 
I do agree with this entirely. I also believe that great prudence is necessary in order to not dismantle the second amendment in our attempt to do better.

I've always told my sons that it is not really a question of political party when it comes to politics, but more a question of an ideology. Namely whether liberal or conservative.
Presented with a seemingly good idea, a liberal tends to accept it at face value and run with it, where as a conservative tends to scrutinize it before accepting it, asking where it may lead us, and weighs the consequences of running with it. This is obviously oversimplified, but it is not necessarily wrong.
I can't unequivocally say you're wrong, but I don't think you're right on this either.
Conservatives do not like change.. that's what makes them conservative! They resist change even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Most conservatives (READ: Republican and Religious), do not like changing the status quo as it would seem that there is safety and security in familiarity.

In a world dominated by change and evolution (read: psychological and technological evolution), conservatives refuse to learn and adapt. Heck, there's even a book they follow that tells them what and how they should think and they wave that book in the air during arguments. I think that most conservative policies are misguided and just absolutely wrong.. But they do get one very big thing correct.. and its a big one.. They like to execute the trash of society and they believe in the right to personal protection. (I'm going to leave the conservatives foreign policies and war mongering out for another conversation)

Liberals on the other hand tend to accept change a bit too fast and sometimes (frequently?) even jump the gun (no pun intended!:p) to embrace something new. The problem with the stereotypical liberal is that they too sometimes lack the scientific knowledge to make a good decision, and then, without the required knowledge, and without a book to follow and wave in the air, they too can go off in the wrong direction.

Considering the above opinion, I think that anyone who polarizes themselves to one side or the other is one of our fundamental problems.

Science is everything.. in fact, its pretty much the only thing.. and the science says that in area's of the country where people are allowed to defend themselves with guns, the crime rate tends to decrease. And this follows common sense.. In the wild (nature), predators don't prey on the healthy and strong adult population.. they go after the sick, the old, and the weak. Criminals are no different.

I think that people who stick to the 2nd amendment as their argument for individual level gun control are doing themselves, and society a disfavor. If the science showed that CCW permits caused an increase in crime, rather than a decrease in crime, I would be against allowing almost anyone to carry a weapon in public. But the fact is, the all important science says the opposite.. Honest and hard working citizens who are armed tend to reduce the crime rate.

If the liberal democrats could just learn to change with the science on this issue, we'd all be better for it.



Without question the writers of our constitution fell into the latter category, and wrote it with great prudence. Not all of the attempts to run with good ideas since regarding it, have proved to actually be good ideas.

I don't believe that changing and placing more restrictions or limitations on their original writing is a good idea in any way. Certainly not in the form of allowing an individual or group to govern whether or not someone is worthy of enjoying the rights granted by what they wrote, based on how they jump through a hoop... such as writing an essay or their ability to do so.

The problem with our constitution is that it was written at a time when folks had no clue as to the technological advances that would change our world. Even some things that were fundamental truths back then have been rendered irrelevant, ineffective, or even downright counterproductive. Our supreme court is tasked with sorting it all out but as times change, even that is slowly becoming a problem.

Our constitution, like an old building, needs to be renovated. Some things need to stay, some need to change, some need to be added, and some need to be done away with. Failure of our society to accomplish this will probably lead to our downfall. As nature always demonstrates at every level, you either adapt or you go extinct.

Strictly enforced gun control is a very good thing.. But telling the average hard working and responsible person that their right to self protection is going to be limited is a very bad thing.
Technology may one day fix this, but I'm not so sure social policy ever will.
 
MurBob said:
Conservatives do not like change.. that's what makes them conservative! They resist change even in the face of overwhelming evidence. ...
Most conservatives (READ: Republican and Religious), do not like changing ... conservatives refuse to learn and adapt.

Philosophical conservatism is a somewhat more complex school of thought than you've described.

MurBob said:
Heck, there's even a book they follow that tells them what and how they should think and they wave that book in the air during arguments.

Burke's Reflections on the Revolution in France?

MurBob said:
They like to execute the trash of society ...

You appear not to have followed the death penalty issue closely over the last couple of decades. As evidence of the error rate involved in death sentences has become more common, enthusiasm for state sanction execution has waned as a political force.

MurBob said:
Science is everything.. in fact, its pretty much the only thing.. .

Is this the conclusion of your education in the humanities?

MurBob said:
Strictly enforced gun control is a very good thing.

"Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." - Burke
 
I find it hard to believe ANYONE on a firearm forum would agree, to any extent, with that law :cool:

And you forgot to mention that it requires a $1000 fee for training - now only the rich can get guns. And how long will it be before they raise that number to $2,000 or $3,000 or $10,000
 
MurBob your argument for denial of constitutional rights based on academic standards , and your analysis of our legal system is too simple to be taken seriously. Perhaps giving simple answers to complex questions is enough to disqualify one from those same rights?
 
MurBob your argument for denial of constitutional rights based on academic standards , and your analysis of our legal system is too simple to be taken seriously. Perhaps giving simple answers to complex questions is enough to disqualify one from those same rights?

There are better ways to voice rebuttal than to cloak a personal attack.

And if I misconstrued your post, please be more specific.
 
Nothing cloaked about my response. I find your views of our government, Constitution, civil liberties and rights in direct opposition to mine. Do I then advocate for your censure and loss of rights?
 
MurBob said:
In a world dominated by change and evolution (read: psychological and
technological evolution), conservatives refuse to learn and adapt.
Hmmmmmm.....

IIRC, the Founders believed "change" should be tempered such that the Mob did not rule the streets.
Hence we were given a Constitutional Republic (if we could keep it)... NOT a democracy.

Now as to necessary "Change" in that Republic, the Founders said "yea verily... There should be change."
And then gave us the Amendment process for that Constitution.

Surely you don't have a problem with that.... or do you ?
 
I can't unequivocally say you're wrong, but I don't think you're right on this either.
Conservatives do not like change.. that's what makes them conservative! They resist change even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Most conservatives (READ: Republican and Religious), do not like changing the status quo as it would seem that there is safety and security in familiarity.

In a world dominated by change and evolution (read: psychological and technological evolution), conservatives refuse to learn and adapt. Heck, there's even a book they follow that tells them what and how they should think and they wave that book in the air during arguments. I think that most conservative policies are misguided and just absolutely wrong.. But they do get one very big thing correct.. and its a big one.. They like to execute the trash of society and they believe in the right to personal protection. (I'm going to leave the conservatives foreign policies and war mongering out for another conversation)

Liberals on the other hand tend to accept change a bit too fast and sometimes (frequently?) even jump the gun (no pun intended!) to embrace something new. The problem with the stereotypical liberal is that they too sometimes lack the scientific knowledge to make a good decision, and then, without the required knowledge, and without a book to follow and wave in the air, they too can go off in the wrong direction.

Considering the above opinion, I think that anyone who polarizes themselves to one side or the other is one of our fundamental problems.

Science is everything.. in fact, its pretty much the only thing.. and the science says that in area's of the country where people are allowed to defend themselves with guns, the crime rate tends to decrease. And this follows common sense.. In the wild (nature), predators don't prey on the healthy and strong adult population.. they go after the sick, the old, and the weak. Criminals are no different.

I think that people who stick to the 2nd amendment as their argument for individual level gun control are doing themselves, and society a disfavor. If the science showed that CCW permits caused an increase in crime, rather than a decrease in crime, I would be against allowing almost anyone to carry a weapon in public. But the fact is, the all important science says the opposite.. Honest and hard working citizens who are armed tend to reduce the crime rate.

If the liberal democrats could just learn to change with the science on this issue, we'd all be better for it.

Honestly it sounds like you get what I'm saying in my oversimplified way, and you're not disagreeing with me. Kudos!

The problem with our constitution is that it was written at a time when folks had no clue as to the technological advances that would change our world. Even some things that were fundamental truths back then have been rendered irrelevant, ineffective, or even downright counterproductive. Our supreme court is tasked with sorting it all out but as times change, even that is slowly becoming a problem.

I tend to believe that our forefathers who wrote our constitution had a pretty good grasp on what the future could bring, hence how our constitution was written. It protects the fundamentals that do not change regardless of advances in technology.
I'm curious what it is that you think was once a fundamental truth regarding our constitution, and now is irrelevant, ineffective, and counterproductive?

Heed the fact that our supreme court does in fact hold the power to 'sort it all out', and pray that those appointed to it carry the same wisdom, foresight and understanding that our forefathers did in writing it.

Our constitution, like an old building, needs to be renovated. Some things need to stay, some need to change, some need to be added, and some need to be done away with. Failure of our society to accomplish this will probably lead to our downfall. As nature always demonstrates at every level, you either adapt or you go extinct.

I could not disagree with you more on your ideas of 'renovation', 'change', and 'additions'. As it is written it is complete, and it is timeless. I'm more of the thought that the success of our society to accomplish this will probably lead to our downfall.

Strictly enforced gun control is a very good thing

My apologies, I realize now that I could in fact disagree with you more, and do.
Strictly enforced gun control has historically proven to be a very good thing for only a murderously maniacal few. In each instance, the whole of humanity suffers immeasurably. Research the facts in history, what is it that leads you to believe that it could or would be any different now?

I'm standing firmly by what I've said. Your motivations I doubt I would find myself in disagreement with MurBob, but your ideas and methods scare the living crap out of me. There is little if anything in them, that differentiates them from our current opposition's ideas and methods.
 
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I find your views of our government, Constitution, civil liberties and rights in direct opposition to mine.
What part do you find to be in opposition and why? I am genuinely interested in your dissenting opinion.

Do I then advocate for your censure and loss of rights?
I understand you are in opposition to my point of view but I do not understand why you made this statement.


Perhaps if I attempt to be more clear it will help but first we need to agree on some common ground.
*Can we all agree that not everyone should be allowed to carry a weapon in public?
*Can we all agree that there needs to be some kind of process that determines who can and can not carry a weapon in public?
*Can we all agree that what we have now isn't working so well? (Sarcasm alert:) Or are you sharpening your pencil to write that essay? Or in my state of Michigan, we used to have to dress up and appear in front of an interrogation board to state our case..
*Can we all agree that a person should either be allowed to carry a weapon, or not, but that we should not be forced to beg and gobble to some random authority figure who imposes arbitrary rules?
 
I'll chime in :

"Perhaps if I attempt to be more clear it will help but first we need to agree on some common ground.
*Can we all agree that not everyone should be allowed to carry a weapon in public?
Answer, yes, we already do, this is a straw man argument. Federal law is quite clear as to who is allowed to purchase a firearm, and who is not. That portion of the population allowed to purchase a firearm should be allowed to carry them under permit if they choose to, without further examination or requirement.
*Can we all agree that there needs to be some kind of process that determines who can and can not carry a weapon in public? No, we can't all agree on that. If I am of legal age, no criminal history, and able to furnish identification, finger prints, and pass a background check, I should be allowed to carry a concealed weapon in public under permit. Any requirements of process over and above that have been demonstrated as being abused to deny the civil rights of the citizenry. This includes training and reviews for 'need'.
*Can we all agree that what we have now isn't working so well? (Sarcasm alert Or are you sharpening your pencil to write that essay? Or in my state of Michigan, we used to have to dress up and appear in front of an interrogation board to state our case..
I'll agree what you may have doesn't work well, but neither is the proposal an improvement.

*Can we all agree that a person should either be allowed to carry a weapon, or not, but that we should not be forced to beg and gobble (grovel) to some random authority figure who imposes arbitrary rules? " Yes, and that is exactly the point of opposing arbitrary, capricious requirements or permitting approval systems that can be arbitrary and capricious, or abused for ideological or political reasons.
 
Perhaps if I attempt to be more clear it will help but first we need to agree on some common ground.
*Can we all agree that not everyone should be allowed to carry a weapon in public?
*Can we all agree that there needs to be some kind of process that determines who can and can not carry a weapon in public?
*Can we all agree that what we have now isn't working so well? (Sarcasm alert Or are you sharpening your pencil to write that essay? Or in my state of Michigan, we used to have to dress up and appear in front of an interrogation board to state our case..
*Can we all agree that a person should either be allowed to carry a weapon, or not, but that we should not be forced to beg and gobble to some random authority figure who imposes arbitrary rules?

Yes we can and do agree that not everyone should be allowed to OWN much less carry a weapon in public. There are already a list of those persons prohibited and I'm pretty comfortable with that list. I would add that I think we should find an effective and just way of including mental health considerations in that list.
Yes we can agree that there should be a determining process. In fact there already is, and if it were effectively enforced it would work pretty well. We desperately need to find a more effective way to enforce what we already have, not add new things to it.
Yes what we have is not working now but I just covered that.
Yes we all agree that a person should either be allowed to carry a weapon, or not, but that we should not be forced to beg and gobble to some random authority figure who imposes arbitrary rules.
That is really what the whole discussion is about in the first place.

What we seem to be losing sight of, or what we seem to not agree upon is the fact that all of these ideas and processes are aimed at law abiding gun owners who already are permitted to keep and bear arms by our constitution, which includes carrying them in public.
It is the criminals that are the ones that we don't want owning weapons much less carrying them in public, but alas, they do now and will continue to do so regardless of what rules and regulations we devise to thwart them. We only thwart those who we don't need to thwart.
 
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I understand you are in opposition to my point of view but I do not understand why you made this statement.

K_Mac I believe made that statement because he is demonstrating to you how our constitution affords you the right to have a differing opinion and voice it freely, and he is not inclined to deny you your constitutional right any more than any person or authority should be inclined to.

But I'm guessing.
 
And neither has any bearing or relevance to a persons skill level.

You clearly stated that illiterate people are stupid. So the Navajos that I am acquainted with are stupid because they can't read and write?

Your statement was not very well thought out...
 
I'm still waiting for MurBob to "agree" that amending a rather
explicit Constitutional provision in in his procedural lexicon.

Until then, none of us have anything to talk about.
 
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