Wouldn't it be great?

So of course that "somewhere" is a country with some of the lamest reasons for being taken care of in the first place. Quote the evil bit all you want but it's no worse than for "good men" to do bad things that only further their own causes while trying to tell everyone else it's for altruistic purposes.

Believing that current actions are unwarranted and counter productive is not defeatist. A defeatist attitude would state "we're losing, we're never going to win". All I did was point out that if the justification for Iraq is some little quote then I'm sure you'll have no problem with us spending an equal amount of time, money and lives on every other third world nation under tyrannical control. Right?
 
Every other third world nation with tyrannical dictatorships never had the world's third largest army. I am not sure what they ranked when we went in the second time, but I guarantee that it warented military force. The rule under Sadam was horrific. Ever met an ethnic Kurd? I have. Ever talked to an old friend in the USAF who can't find a place to build a school for all them pesky(for you argument and Sadam's defense) mass-graves?

Quote the evil bit all you want but it's no worse than for "good men" to do bad things that only further their own causes while trying to tell everyone else it's for altruistic purposes.
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I defy you to tell me what President Bush has to gain from the war in Iraq. I can't wait to hear this one.:rolleyes:

Clean water, schools, pretty much everything you take for granted are being provided to the people of Iraq for the first time ever. If you belive improving the quality of living is unwarrented and counter-productive then it shows how much you care for your fellow man. But our military personel are giving their lives so that others may have a chance at a better life. No offense, but guess who I have a little more respect and support for?

It is not as simple as you. I have already stated that some situations can be handled through diplomatic channels. But when a dictator won't give up without a fight, you have to put up that fight if you realy belive in what you are trying to accomplish.

It is not just some little quote. It is at the heart of the matter. Someone is trying to do something and you are pounding away annonamously saying "That's not going to work". All you do is criticize, how about hearing what we should do? Again, I await this with bated breath.;)
 
I don't give a rat's behind about oppressed people if they can't rise up on their own. Freedom is worthless if someone else sends their children to bleed for you. Help, sure. War on their behalf, no. When we go to war, it should be to defend our nation. Nation, as in soil and survival. Then again, I don't believe in protecting the spotted owl either. Same difference. Animals sometimes go extinct, so do groups of people. Adapt, survive, resist, or die, but don't expect me to die for anyone but my own.

The Iraqis couldn't even manage a resistance against Saddam who kept the religious nuts in check, (although what resistance there was got wiped out when we left them twisting in the wind after GW II) and the current troops we are training are hilariously incompetent.

What happened to the roses strewn at our soldiers feet that the pundits and strategists promised? What happened to the lovely visions of training the newly freed Iraqi people to defend their country so that we can leave?

They aren't worth the effort, but we'll keep dumping lives and money into it while the Kurds get the shaft when they should be the ones getting their own ethnic nation.

It has become obvious to me that there is no actual reasoning being used for Iraq that is applied logically to the rest of the world, but simply a shifting series of rationalizations. Otherwise we would be clamoring to invade and liberate most of Africa and Asia and South America.

The sad thing is it's all because some people high up had to start out by dressing things up and sugarcoating instead being men and stating the simple unglamorous and unpleasant reasons that did justify this. Then we wouldn't be stuck with unrealistic goals and hamstrung men on the ground trying to do the impossible.

Clean water, schools, pretty much everything you take for granted are being provided to the people of Iraq for the first time ever.
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Do you or do you not believe that those things are worth American lives?
 
“The Iraqi schoolgirls should be the next to thank them. Because without this corrupt illegal imoral war they would not be schoolgirls, just property.”

Well put. I didn’t think about it that way. It’s so obvious that everyone would rather be dead than be free. Free to NOT own weapons, free to have a CURFEW, free to live under MARSHALL LAW, etc. Free to get bombed while attending school. TRUE FREEDOM.

“All that is neccesary for evil to triumph is that good men stand by and do nothing.”

So by that logic you have to hunt down and correct every injustice on the face of the earth? What if China wants to invade the U.S. because of all the injustice here.

“Sure people have died, but I would bet that more of them have been killed by insurgents than our collateral damage.”

Insurgents that WEREN’T THERE before we came. Just because we didn’t DO it doesn’t mean we aren’t responsible.

“For those that survive they can look forward to their children getting educated in schools we built, drinking clean water from wells we dug and voting in a government that would never have been possible previously.”

They don’t have schools, clean water or free and fair elections. Sure, we have a few token wells, or token schools, that’s always the case. But the fact remains that the basic infrastructure is a fraction of what it was before we came. Just SAYING that we have succeeded in making those things possible doesn’t make it true.

“The immoral thing is standing by while an entire nation suffers when you have the power to change things.”

SO GO INVADE THE WORLD. PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING EVERYWHERE. That doesn’t make you OR your government James Bond with a license to kill.

“So before you start spouting the liberal defeatist party propaganda, try thinking with your own mind about the positive effects.”

Afraid you’ll be convinced? Better cover your ears, close your eyes and start screaming “LA LA LA LA LA!!!”

I’m a libertarian, far different than a liberal. But I wouldn’t expect you to know the difference, or to have the curiosity to learn.
 
Every other third world nation with tyrannical dictatorships never had the world's third largest army. I am not sure what they ranked when we went in the second time, but I guarantee that it warented military force. The rule under Sadam was horrific. Ever met an ethnic Kurd? I have. Ever talked to an old friend in the USAF who can't find a place to build a school for all them pesky(for you argument and Sadam's defense) mass-graves?


I defy you to tell me what President Bush has to gain from the war in Iraq. I can't wait to hear this one.

Clean water, schools, pretty much everything you take for granted are being provided to the people of Iraq for the first time ever. If you belive improving the quality of living is unwarrented and counter-productive then it shows how much you care for your fellow man. But our military personel are giving their lives so that others may have a chance at a better life. No offense, but guess who I have a little more respect and support for?

It is not as simple as you. I have already stated that some situations can be handled through diplomatic channels. But when a dictator won't give up without a fight, you have to put up that fight if you realy belive in what you are trying to accomplish.

It is not just some little quote. It is at the heart of the matter. Someone is trying to do something and you are pounding away annonamously saying "That's not going to work". All you do is criticize, how about hearing what we should do? Again, I await this with bated breath.
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Why is when someone questions the validity of this conflict the hard core conservatives claim I'm defending Saddam? "If you don't support this war you're a terrorist/communist/saddam lover!" Please. And don't try to claim you have more "respect and support" for the men and women putting their lives on the line. I simply believe their lives are worth it when they're sacrificed in our defense and I don't believe that's being done. That being said my DEP papers are in and I'm patiently awaiting my own orders to get the training that will undoubtedly put me right along side those men and women putting their asses on the line for a questionable cause.

It's not all about President Bush. Again, the hard core right always claims "You must think Bush wants oil but you can't prove that!" when it's not the issue at all. There are numerous reasons for this war, some of which have been advertised, yet much of the country believes none of those was good enough to justify it.

Yeah, some situations can be handled with diplomatic solutions but the bottom line remains: if you support this war for the simple reason of "liberation" then you must also support the same kind of war with the same expense for every other nation.

It is some little quote. Everyone always throws out quotes thinking that they help an argument. They don't.

"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire

see?

Just because I don't have the qualifications to provide a better solution does not mean I don't have the right to criticise. Just because I'm not a professional quarterback doesn't mean I can't holler about Grossman dropping the ball.
 
"The Iraqi schoolgirls should be the next to thank them. Because without this corrupt illegal imoral war they would not be schoolgirls, just property."

***You are confusing Iraq with Afghanistan. Before our invasion, Iraq was one of the most westernized Islamic countries, full of educated and sofisticated people. Bad as he was, esp. to Kurds, Sadaam was a very secular dictator. Women and girls were not made to wear burkhas or even headcovers, and most did attend school. The fundamentalist Shia were oppressed under Sadaam: he forbid their more zealous religious activities. Now they have been enpowered, and are enforcing much more strict Islamic codes, esp. for women. Do you consider this improvement?

There is far less electricity and clean water now, not to mention far less security for Iraqi civilians. With a low level civil war raging, ethnic cleansing in most neighborhoods, death squads (often armed by the US via the Iraqi police and army which they have infiltrated) snatching people and executing them, I'd expect many Iraqis would gladly turn back the clock about 5 years. At least most of them could walk out of their houses without fear of getting blown up (bombings are a daily occurrance). Before the US invasion, there was no insurgency, you know.
 
Way to go pitz!


The only way for someone to truly believe that the Iraqis are better off NOW than they were before the American empire took over is to blind himself to a very apparent and visible reality.

And then there are some common myths people hold:

1) That the U.S. military is comprised of the same sort of individuals as 50 years ago.
2) That the U.S. military cannot be defeated.
3) That the U.S. military only brings peace and good fortune to foreigners.
4) That our rulers want what's best for our military, for we citizens and for the citizens of other countries.
 
1) That the U.S. military is comprised of the same sort of individuals as 50 years ago.
2) That the U.S. military cannot be defeated.
3) That the U.S. military only brings peace and good fortune to foreigners.
4) That our rulers want what's best for our military, for we citizens and for the citizens of other countries.
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Okay, now you have insulted the US military. #1, the US military is composed of better educated volunteers in better health and with better training than 50 years ago. All of the men and women I served with were good honorable people who wanted to serve their country. Any military man or woman for that matter is twice the person you are, opining annonomosly on the internet.

#2, In over 200 years the best anyone has ever done is a draw against us. And that was not a fair fight with the politicians getting in the way.

#3, the US Military does their job! To kill people and break their stuff. Mercy missions are of secondary importance, but don't blame our men and women for the politics involved.

#4, I agree with you on that; law of averages I guess. Politicians are lying when their lips are moving.

The first three however are bunk.
 
So by that logic you have to hunt down and correct every injustice on the face of the earth? What if China wants to invade the U.S. because of all the injustice here.
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I already covered that in a previous post, try and keep up.

I’m a libertarian, far different than a liberal. But I wouldn’t expect you to know the difference, or to have the curiosity to learn.
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I know plenty about libertarians. You are speaking with a poli sci major. I have the curiosity, but much prefer to spend $150 a credit hour to learn from from someone who knows what they are talking about. On a side note, I have yet to have discourse with a libertarian that did not result in my own uncontrolable laughter.

Pitz, do you realy think that any women realy had a chance at being something great under Sadam? Iraq was a hellhole before we went in, but as is the case with many things it has to get worse before it gets better. Wait until control of the counrty is turned over to the people and the governement gets on its feet. In ten years Iraq will be better than it ever could have under Sadam.

Red, I was not saying you defend Sadam, mearly that the mass graves in Iraq are an "inconvenient truth" to both your argument and to Sadam's defense in the courts. Some situations can be handled by diplomacy so it is not neccesary to divert as many resources as we are in Iraq. On a personal note, if you do not belive in what you are going to do, tell your recruiter you want out. If you are not willing to give your life in the very conflict you disagree with then you have not place being there.
 
Rhgunguy,

"Okay, now you have insulted the US military."

Oh no, what a taboo! That's like being.....unAmerican! What a traitor I am!


As for my #1, so what if people are better educated and more healthy? People today often join the military because they need the money, and they can't get a better job. That wasn't the case in the past. Today people go into the military instead of going to jail. They need the job; they need the money, and so they are willing to follow any order, no matter its legality or morality. I have plenty of friends in the military; they're all great people, but they recognize the same things I do.


As for Iraq being "better than it ever was," take a class or two in history. Occupying forces have a terrible history of making things better for those they conquer.


As for mocking my political bent, I'll bet you know next to nothing about libertarianism. I too was a government major in college, I don't think the word "libertarian" even came up more than a time or two. And I guarantee you mine was a "better" college than where you're at.

"Uncontrollably laughing" at an intelligent person who presents a logical argument, no matter how much you dislike it, shows a low level of thinking.
 
To rhgunguy...

The principle of freeing a tyrannical nation though good, is worthless if that tyrnnnical nation was set up by the invading force in the first place, hate to say it, but we (as in government) funded Saddam and his cronies for quite some time before taking him out. (think of when Iran and Iraq were fighting each other.)


Epyon
 
Red, I was not saying you defend Sadam, mearly that the mass graves in Iraq are an "inconvenient truth" to both your argument and to Sadam's defense in the courts. Some situations can be handled by diplomacy so it is not neccesary to divert as many resources as we are in Iraq. On a personal note, if you do not belive in what you are going to do, tell your recruiter you want out. If you are not willing to give your life in the very conflict you disagree with then you have not place being there.
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I may not believe in the reasons for this being done in the first place but I do believe that the people there need to clean up the mess that was made.
 
V8, for going to a better school than I do, without knowing what school I go to, you yourself should take some history, that or maybe your school's program has some holes.

For example, there have been people with the choice of jail or the military since the founding of this country. Your insinuation that they are bad people again shows your ignorance. A very good personal friend of mine was given that choice. The structure of the armed forces turned him around, with help from the base ministry. He takes great pride in having served his country in Afghanistan. With his GI bill he is currently going to school to be a network administrator.

Another section of history that your school must have skipped over is the Great Depression(funny, we covered that in Junior High). Many people joined the militray for lack of a better job. So, that is nothing new. Furthermore, I served with a multitude of individuals who gave up great civilian jobs to join the Air Force. After 9/11 they felt it was the right thing to do.

Now I am not debating that there are bad apples in the military. In any large population your are going to have dirt bags. However, thanks to greater information technology and background checks, applicants to the military are much less likely to be dirt bags than they were in previous years.

With changing values in out culture, people are less likely to blindly follow illegal orders. I can tell you have never served your country or else you would know that the Oath of Enlistment contains a caveat about following orders in accordance with the UCMJ. While in basic trainging, trainees are given instruction in to the Laws of Armed Combat(LOAC). Before deployment and during deployment the LOAC is reviewed in depth.

Today's military is composed of an all volunteer force. Not so in previous conflicts. Almost everyone who was in during peace time that never thought they would have to fight is gone. The military is now composed of people who knew what they were getting themselves into or those who had a chance to get out, but chose to re-enlist. That, combined with everything above proves that they are every bit as good, and in many cases better than the military of 50 years ago.

I don't care how you feel about the war, but at least have the decency to care about your countrymen. Your eire towards the military is as misplaced as if I hated all taxicab driver mearly becasue of their job.

As for libertarians, two of my classmates are of that particular bent. So, it gets brought up. As for my laughing at "logical arguments", it has never come up, they are quite intellegent, but their arguments leave a lot to be desired in the logic department. Beliving that you went to a better college than I currently attend shows a low level of thinking about everyone but yourself. You would be fun to play at poker, as you belive that whatever you have is better without even seeing the other persons cards.

Redworm,
You mean to tell me that your are not a convict, or incapable of getting a better job? That must blow V8's mind! Seriously, if you feel that is what you realy want to do, you have my undying respect. There is no greater feeling than serving your country, despite what V8 belives. What branch are you going into?

Epyon,
Yes, and we funded the resistance to Afghanistan while the Soviets occupied them. Situations chage and the old enemy of my enemy, is no longer your friend. Especialy in such a volitile region. The fact remains that we went in, and historicaly it is disasterous to defeat an enemy and not help them rebuild(look at what happened with Germany after WWI). It is equaly disaterous to help an ally of conveince, only to hang them out to dry after you have accomplished your goals(like Afghanistan).
 
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