Would you support mandatory training if...

One thing that DOES make sense and I WOULD be in favor of, is the state legislatures mandating that all kids in middle or high school take at least one semester of gun safety & marksmanshi
I do not agree with that at all. I feel the same way about it that I do religion. It should be something available to those that wish to seek it out but not forced upon anyone that does not wish to participate. Making it a requirement in school takes the choice away from both parents and children as to whether they wish to be involved with guns are not.

I like firearms. I enjoy the shooting sports, I enjoy the security they can offer, I admire the beauty of a well made firearm, and I admire them as complex and well made tools. I believe they are a benefit to society and that everyone should be familiar with the true nature of firearms and not see them as killing machines. I wish most people would share my opinions on them.

This being said, I also respect the rights of another person to find them completely abhorent. I respect their right to make a personal decision to not like them or want anything to do with them and not want their children to have anything to do with them.
 
I do not agree with that at all. I feel the same way about it that I do religion. It should be something available to those that wish to seek it out but not forced upon anyone that does not wish to participate. Making it a requirement in school takes the choice away from both parents and children as to whether they wish to be involved with guns are not.

I think a little mandatory "book" education wouldn't suffer from this issue, then the "hands-on" could be made voluntary. I'm sure they could even come up with some bad educational videos just like they do for health and driver's ed.
 
No

No, The State of Texas teaches you the law during the required class, then the range. If you are incompetant, no CHL.
 
You are. As soon as you admit that nuclear weapons (which are most definitely "arms") are not to be owned ("kept") by the People, you've already admitted that a broad and literal interpretation is not appropriate.
As long as we are going to go down this path, show me where I have said that the possession of nuclear weapons should be illegal anymore than I think it should be illegal for nations to have them, it's just one of those things you can not uninvent
I do of course have no problem with the strict regulations regarding the possession of nuclear material necessary to build that bomb


Joab, you ignored that to make a joke.
I ignored nothing, the joke was to make the point that I disagreed with the poster

Currently, there are there is training and testing to get a CCW. This wouldn't change that (though you are arguing it would for some reason?)
No and I don't think a reasonable person of average reading ability would infer that
Currently, there are MANY sheriffs, LEO, etc, against people having CCW. This COULD solve that to some extent.
So are you saying that we need more laws instead of enforcing existing law?

This has nothing to do with registering.. it is no different from your current CCW except that it puts in a standard that all states would agree to (now that part of the hypothetical is a hurdle). That's it.
So if all states get together and conspire to force us to pay for the privilege of exercising our rights it's OK ?
Really? Who is this "we" of which you are speaking?
That would be the people of Florida ie "the people in my area". I think I mentioned that about half a sentence prior to the we reference
also I love how you automaticall turn any compromise into "compromise at any cost."
Once more, please show me where I said that any compromise is compromise at any cost. And you claim that I only deal in extremes. Compromise means that I give up something and you give up something so that we both can gain something, not I'll give up something so you will like me and quit picking on me, that's capitulation.
By agreeing to receive mandatory training in order to carry a gun you are admitting that we need permission to do so and that we need popular opinion on our side like we were some sort of democracy or something.

Also, show me how gun rights and popular gun opinion are better now than in 1977.
AWB gone, CCW is sweeping the nation, stand your ground is building headway, the Dems have admitted that gun control will lose them elections DC ban defeated if even temporarily.
While that may not as good as '77 it is swinging BACK that way if a concerted effort is maintained it may go back even further, but again I recognize that I am only speaking for my area of the world, that would be central Florida, again
As for my remarks on the constitution that you pasted, you are way off base.
Your comments speak louder than I did

You seem to not understand that the constitution can change and making alot of bullying demands based on one narrow interpetation of one amendment can cause the amendment to be repealled.
And where have I demonstrated a lack of knowledge of the amendment process? Where have we even discussed the amendment process. You do a lot of inductive leaping don't you.?
If the constitution is so easily changed by offending the masses then why has it not been changed yet if public opinion is so firmly against us (that would be gun owners)? Why has that challenged not even been seriously attempted?

As I have said I would begrudgingly participate if forced just as I participated in the Florida CCW scam and the AWB. That is hypocritical enough, but actually formulating and presenting the plan as a good idea is on the level of channeling Bill Ruger
 
You are. As soon as you admit that nuclear weapons (which are most definitely "arms") are not to be owned ("kept") by the People, you've already admitted that a broad and literal interpretation is not appropriate.
As long as we are going to go down this path, show me where I have said that the possession of nuclear weapons should be illegal anymore than I think it should be illegal for nations to have them, it's just one of those things you can not uninvent
I do of course have no problem with the strict regulations regarding the possession of nuclear material necessary to build that bomb
True, you haven't said that explicitly. You did call my suggestion that somebody be able to go down and purchase one at the local Wal-Mart "ludicrous," so I inferred this...but I suppose you could have been suggesting that the idea of Wal-Mart carrying them, and not private citizens buying them, was the "ludicrous" part.

So, direct question, since you want the play the "show me where I said that" game: do you think the purchase and possession of nuclear weapons by private citizens should be legal? And, of course, that they should be completely unrestricted (just like any other "arms")?

Also, another question...since you apparently think strict regulations on the nuclear material necessary to build those arms is alright, how would you feel if the federal government imposed similar restrictions on gunpowder?

Lastly, you didn't answer my (less extreme) question regarding "heavy" arms like RPGs/SA missiles. So, one last direct question: do you think RPGs and SA missiles should be restricted/regulated by the government?
 
No I would not support it. You shouldn't have to take any kind of state training course to own or carry a handgun. I don't care if they do dangle "all states will recognize my CCL" in front of me. Mandatory, negative. Anytime someone says "I've got a good idea, lets pass a law and make people do it." I slam on the breaks
 
"I've got a good idea, lets pass a law and make people do it."
Only that's not how it would work. Making it mandatory in school would mean what you said but this law would make it an option if someone chose to carry in public. Those who chose not to would not have to do it.
 
Some people even went as far as to say things along the lines that there is no evidence that training would make people safer. C'mon, do they even believe that themselves? Common sense alone tells you that a person trained properly can perform a function better than an untrained one.

I believe what I said that there was no evidence of increased accidental or unjustifable shootings. I believe it was the John Lott study that said the more mandates you throw up for people the less they carry and therefore they do not have the protection of a firearm when needed. Simple economics: be it time(as in taking the course) or money(whether they're paying for it or not) if it's too much of a hassle for them they will not take it.

My fear is that all too much constitution thumping will eventually cause is a repeal of the 2A altogether.



I fear this much less then capitulation and compromise. Lest you forget repealing the 2nd A would require a 2/3 majority in BOTH houses of Congress and ratification by 34 of the states. The liberal states would go along but I believe the overwhelming majority of the states would reject it. Our founders were wise in making it this hard to ammend.

That reality is that it has been decided time and time again that the 2A does not allow you the right to carry concealed. To the best of my knowledge, every time this has been used as an argument in states that ban concealed carry it has failed. Therefore CCW permits are not a constitutional right and would be a great victory for pro-gun people

I disagree. Courts have been overturned over time and I believe it is a constitutional guarantee. Look at our Supreme Court: Nine justices with continual 5-4, 4-5 decisions. If they're all put in that position because of their ability to determine what our founding fathers meant when they wrote the documents then they wouldn't have these split decisions, and their would only be an occasional desenting view. The fact is they were put in these positions because of their political ideology. Given these facts, the Surpreme Court is probably the most corrupt court in the land. Historical interpretation and accuracy had little to nothing to do with their being chosen for this court, unfortunately.
It sickens me when someone says that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are "Living breathing documents". They aren't! They had a specific meaning in the 18th century and that same meaning exists today.

To answer the question:

NO - because states that have reasonable permit systems are moving towards reciprocity. The states that have hard and fast antigun positions lor negative on shall issue permits like NY, CA, IL, MA, MD, DC (not a state and in the courts) would never accept such a mandate as they are against shall issue period.

Thus, I regard the proposal as not practical and too hypothetical. Sorry -

You're right Glenn. The only way this will happen is if a ruling is made by the Supreme Court that the 2nd Amendment IS an individual right AND that the states are infringing on it and the Govt. willing to enforce their mandate. The 1st Amendment is a guarantee EVERYWHERE in the US. The 2nd should be no different. This patchwork of laws from state to state, county to county, or city to city is a blatant violation.

2Seventy
 
The 1st Amendment is a guarantee EVERYWHERE in the US. The 2nd should be no different. This patchwork of laws from state to state, county to county, or city to city is a blatant violation.

The first amendment (at least in the same literal and broad interpretation you're suggesting for the second) is not a guarantee everywhere in the US. Also, what restrictions there are on it are not consistent between states, cities, or counties either (for example, see obscenity or pornography related laws).
 
One thing that DOES make sense and I WOULD be in favor of, is the state legislatures mandating that all kids in middle or high school take at least one semester of gun safety & marksmanship - that oughtta be a prerequisite for graduating, just like history, math, science, and english.

That makes no sense at all. The 2a gives us the RIGHT to bear arms, it does not make it mandatory. Forcing gun safety & marksmanship on anyone is doing the same thing the "anti s" do, just on the opposite end of the spectrum.
 
Not just no but hell no! I can't believe anybody said yes. Even the folks from California. Beyond that I can't believe the guy that said has the audicity to call someone stupid.
 
You did call my suggestion that somebody be able to go down and purchase one at the local Wal-Mart "ludicrous,"
Maybe I used poor wording, I was calling the comparison of nukes to concealed personal fireamrms ludicrous
So, direct question, since you want the play the "show me where I said that" game: do you think the purchase and possession of nuclear weapons by private citizens should be legal? And, of course, that they should be completely unrestricted (just like any other "arms")?
I habve already given a fairly direct answer to that
Also, another question...since you apparently think strict regulations on the nuclear material necessary to build those arms is alright, how would you feel if the federal government imposed similar restrictions on gunpowder?
The comparison of gunpowder to a nuclear material is even more ludicrous than the first comparison you made,
If you can show me how radiation from poorly stored or improperly used gunpowder can affect and entire neighbor hood for years and even generations I might change my mind

Lastly, you didn't answer my (less extreme) question regarding "heavy" arms like RPGs/SA missiles. So, one last direct question: do you think RPGs and SA missiles should be restricted/regulated by the government?
I have no problem with private ownership of explosives or even grenades if the laws for improper use were severe enough.

Now how about we play your game in the other direction ?
Could you point me to the part of the second amendment that mentions specifically keeping and bearing firearms as a right?
We could use your logic and say that knives and clubs fit the description of arms as set forth by the founders. And those weapons are no more removed from the flintlocks of the day than the modern weapons we have now are.

Could one not argue, since your reading of the constitution allows for regulation, that only knives and war clubs are protected?
But then we are back to your argument that there is no provision for concealed carry and for that matter possession in public is also not specifically mentioned either.
So perhaps the framers were merely looking out for chefs and baseball players

So now my question to you is
Where do you draw the line?
 
I have no problem with private ownership of explosives or even grenades if the laws for improper use were severe enough.

And shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles? Or are you simply lumping those in with explosives?

Now how about we play your game in the other direction ?
Could you point me to the part of the second amendment that mentions specifically keeping and bearing firearms as a right?
We could use your logic and say that knives and clubs fit the description of arms as set forth by the founders. And those weapons are no more removed from the flintlocks of the day than the modern weapons we have now are.

Could one not argue, since your reading of the constitution allows for regulation, that only knives and war clubs are protected?
But then we are back to your argument that there is no provision for concealed carry and for that matter possession in public is also not specifically mentioned either.
So perhaps the framers were merely looking out for chefs and baseball players

So now my question to you is
Where do you draw the line?

Actually, the way I'm reading the Constitution (and the only way that makes logical sense, once you prohibit ownership of any arms...such as nuclear weapons) is that even knives and clubs are not necessarily protected from any and all regulation. The government can choose to regulate or not regulate those within reason as well (as in, according to public interest), provided the overall right to bear them is infringed in the least restrictive way possible. In other words, I define infringe much differently that you...logically I have to, once nuclear weapons (or shoulder-fired missiles, or M1A2 tanks, or any other weapon system) are restricted from sale to anybody with the money and the desire.

That's the fun part about my argument...it actually works logically in both directions, all the way to both ends of the spectrum. Simply because the government has chosen to regulate explosives, or nuclear weapons, or concealed carry does not suddenly obligate them to similarly regulate pocketknives. Any given "arms" can be regulated according to compelling public interests.

At which point, as I said, it all depends on where you decide to draw a line. As for where I draw the line, I think I've made that clear. Shall-issue permits, no monetary cost, minimal training, probationary permits for instant issue until classes completed, flexible class schedules, etc. Just go re-read my post if you feel the need to. That's where I draw the line, at least where concealed carry of firearms is concerned.

If you want to know where I stand as far as other weapons are concerned, I suppose we could jabber about it all day. Obviously I don't think private citizens should own nukes. I do think I should be able to purchase an M2 machine gun, with a license that doesn't cost anything and is only moderately more difficult to get than the mythical universal concealed permit we're talking about. That should give you some idea.

I'm just pointing out to you that you speak in absolutes, with no lines and no compromises...except that eventually there are. Which logically makes no sense. You point at the 2A and claim there can be no "infringement" of any kind on the right to "arms," except that there can be and you admit there can be. At which point you are no longer literally interpreting the 2A, either...you're just drawing the line farther up the chain than I am.

Which is cool. Just be honest about it, and then don't try to point to the literal text as an argument.
 
Last edited:
Okay I think Juan and Playboy got this thread down pat and have said everything I might have said. Just wanted to add, (because I do this a lot),

As long as we are making ludicrous suggestions,

No. It is an argument called the logical extreme, also known as taking something to "its logical conclusion." It is one of the easiest ways to disprove an incorrect statement. That and proof by contradiction.

An example of a logical extreme is that bit about rape victims in Jimpeel's signature, as disgusting as it may be.
 
your whole argument does not work both ways, as soon as you advocate permits to exercise your right to keep and bear arms you have left the constitution floating in the toilet

Your capitulative ( yeah I made it up, so what)stance would make it acceptable for laws to be enacted disallowing any thing that could remotely be considered an "arm" from being carried
And as I have said ,it is bad enough that we accept these things when they are forced on us but actually advocating them and drawing up the plans for yet another infringement ,ala Ruger himself, is just distasteful

As for your nuclear argument
It is perfectly reasonable for us to look to the writings of the founders in determining their intent
And it is clear that their intent was to allow for the individual's defense of person and community without infringing on innocent parties right to life.
This cannot be done with a nuclear weapon or any other bomb or weapon capable of great destruction unless it is determined that an entire city or neighborhood, and their descendants, is a threat.
A threat of that magnitude would not be up to the discretion on a single individual.
A decision like that would be at the discretion of a greater power that has be given that power to make such decisions on a community wide scale. So it would be fitting ,since the right of ownership implies the right to use, that weapons of that nature be left in the hands of those who have been given that power by we the people.

The nuclear argument is usually a strawman thrown out by antis, that you use it to support and encourage further infringement is very telling
 
I think Juan and Playboy got this thread down pat and have said everything I might have said.
The growing prevalence of this attitude explains why we now have to sweat out each election

Welcome to Generation Capitulation
 
your whole argument does not work both ways, as soon as you advocate permits to exercise your right to keep and bear arms you have left the constitution floating in the toilet

No, my argument logically works both ways. That's my point. Is there something you aren't getting? As soon as any "arms" are restricted ("infringed"), then that implies that a line is being drawn and the RKBA is not all-inclusive and without exception.

You mention weapons "of that type" in the unquoted portion of your reply, specifically as it relates to nuclear weapons. Fair. But then again, as soon as we admit that weapons of a certain "type" are restrictable ("infringable") you've placed a chink in the armor of the RKBA without exceptions. This same argument can be used to ban explosives (from RPG's to HEAT rounds for tanks), tanks (and other weapons systems that have only military purposes), or even simply heavy machine guns (or machine guns in general).

Again, you've determined as soon as you use the phrase "weapons of that type" (which is a fair designation to give to large-yield nuclear weapons to be sure) you've admitted that a line is being drawn. You've selected a point that you (and let's admit, just about anybody) consider reasonable. Bravo. But the point remains...once you've drawn any line then there can be restriction on the RKBA.

Further down I offer another direct question to determine where exactly you draw the line.

As for your nuclear argument
It is perfectly reasonable for us to look to the writing of the founders in determining their intent
And it is clear that their intent was to allow for the individual's defense of person and community without infringing on innocent parties right to life.
This cannot be done with a nuclear weapon or any other bomb or weapon capable of great destruction unless it is determined that an entire city or neighborhood, and their descendants, is a threat.

Okay, so tactical nukes. Those don't have nearly the impact that the large ICBM's do, so since the founding fathers also intended it for the common defense it makes sense that I should be able to keep and bear those. Do you agree? They can, when used responsibly, be used in the common defense without causing undue civilian casualties.

Also, since we're talking about common defense you've not answered directly whether any private citizen should be able to, without restriction, buy anti-air missiles (heck, shoulder fired or vehicular) or tanks (say, an M1A2)...provided they have the money and the desire. So, direct question: should there be any regulation on military weapon systems, up to and including anti-air assets, tanks, etc.? To include unrestricted access to combat-grade ammunition for same.

Logically there shouldn't be, especially if you subscribe to the whole "blood of tyrants" philosophy as well.

The nuclear argument is usually a strawman thrown out by antis, that you use it to support and encourage further infringement is very telling

Yeah, yeah...I also hide in kids' closets or under their beds waiting for them to turn out the lights.
 
They can, when used responsibly, be used in the common defense without causing undue civilian casualties.
And there is the proof that you glossed over the entire concept of the framers intent for the individuals ability to protect themselves and community, maybe you should read the whole passage again or explain to me exactly what you aren't getting

What private individual has the authority to determine what undue civilian casualties amounts to.

As I have said right to own implies the right to use, what threat can a private individual determine is great enough to justify his causing not only acceptable civilian losses but any civilians losses.

Only congress has the power to declare war is congress going to declare war on your say so are you going to be able to justify killing civilians in defense of your community, are you going to use a tactical nuke on American soil to protect American soil?
Also, since we're talking about common defense you've not answered directly whether any private citizen should be able to, without restriction, buy anti-air missiles (heck, shoulder fired or vehicular) or tanks (say, an M1A2)..
Yes I have, except tanks and yeah why not own tanks. Just couldn't drive one on the street because we have already given up the right to free movement as a revocable privilege

Yeah, yeah...I also hide in kids' closets or under their beds waiting for them to turn out the lights.
You really should use that time thinking of better comebacks
 
Yes I have, except tanks and yeah why not own tanks. Just couldn't drive one on the street because we have already given up the right to free movement as a revocable privilege

No, you hadn't. Not directly. You mentioned "explosives" and "grenades" but not things like missiles and such. I'd not nitpick, except that it seems to be a common tactic here to sidestep specific questions while seeming to reply, so that later the whole "show me where I said that!" game can be played.

What I will say is that I think your stance regarding the unrestricted acquisition of things like tanks, artillery pieces, or surface-air missiles necessarily reflects the founding fathers' intent (and I'll point out that the founding fathers didn't necessarily have a unified intent anyway) about as much as you think my stance on concealed carry permits does.

But at this point your argument is more or less sound, so I'll simply say (as is obvious from my previous statement) that I simply disagree with it.

You really should use that time thinking of better comebacks

ZING!
 
Back
Top