Would you refuse to sell a gun to someone you think is shady?
- Thread starter 5whiskey
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buck460XVR
New member
Having a conversation about the sale with a potential buyer would have more to determine how "shady" they were than how they dressed. Having any doubts as to whether the buyer was legit or not would cancel any sale from me.
I guess that's where I've kicked this around to. If the person I saw happened to walk into a LGS that I owned (hypothetically), I wouldn't necessarily deny the sale right away. I would definitely engage the guy in conversation and feel him out before I sold him a gun, and yes that's based off of his very odd dress. If the guy tried to avoid engaging me in conversation, or I get a sense that he's a little "off" after talking to him, then he gets told to hit the road. I guess that's how I would handle it.
As to the shock at me jumping to conclusions over appearance/dress... I still don't like to completely judge a book by it's cover but more often than not the cover offers a sneak-peek at the inside. We have to take that at face value. Gang members are usually suspected to be so by their dress, and can often can be quickly confirmed by seeing the right tattoo... and this is without even talking to the guy. I'm not talking about a teenager with a scruffy beard wearing ripped jeans and rock/punk band shirts. That doesn't set off any alarm bells in my head. I'm talking about the disheveled "business casual" appearance, as if trying to dress up but not capable of putting it together, quiet demeanor, won't look you in the eye, wearing white Reeboks and a black trench coat.
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I live in Colorado,so,for now it is a moot point.After Nov 2014,we'll see...
I notice every time a whack job murders people they look to "Where did he get the gun?"
I do not want to be in the supply chain.
Quite a while back,a friend called and asked if I still had a n extra PA-63.He wanted it for his nephew.Sorry.No way was I going to be involved in that.
Narrowing it down to your assessment of that young man...old clothes,thin clothes...does not matter to me.Black duster....?Hmmm.Brings Columbine to mind.Just my problem?Well,a young man who wears a black duster to a gun show ,IMO,is excersizing poor judgement.
I notice every time a whack job murders people they look to "Where did he get the gun?"
I do not want to be in the supply chain.
Quite a while back,a friend called and asked if I still had a n extra PA-63.He wanted it for his nephew.Sorry.No way was I going to be involved in that.
Narrowing it down to your assessment of that young man...old clothes,thin clothes...does not matter to me.Black duster....?Hmmm.Brings Columbine to mind.Just my problem?Well,a young man who wears a black duster to a gun show ,IMO,is excersizing poor judgement.
DannyB1954
New member
You know from my experience, con men do not look like con men. They always appear to be quite honest. Serial killers do not look like serial killers, (that is why their victims trusted them).
If someone looks squeeky clean, they still could be a bad guy. and vice versa. That is why I sell my stuff through the LGS. Yes they make money from it, but they also do me a large service.
If someone looks squeeky clean, they still could be a bad guy. and vice versa. That is why I sell my stuff through the LGS. Yes they make money from it, but they also do me a large service.
I am not an FFL dealer but I do not feel it is an infringement on anyone's constitutional rights to refuse to sell to someone who gives them a bad feeling. The "shady" purchaser is free to go to another dealer.
One dealer refusing to sell to an individual based on a gut feeling is i no way blacklisting that person so they can never own a gun.
Is it possible this one dealers gut feeling could give a person on the edge of doing something stupid a little more time to think things through? Yes I belive it is entirely possible.
It is not a dealers responsibility to go beyond the standard background check nor do I think most dealers are behavioral experts but I believe it is the dealers right to not do business with a person that makes them feel uncomfortable.
As far as private sale, I would not sell to someone I felt was "shady" but as others have said I would not base that simply on their appearance.
One dealer refusing to sell to an individual based on a gut feeling is i no way blacklisting that person so they can never own a gun.
Is it possible this one dealers gut feeling could give a person on the edge of doing something stupid a little more time to think things through? Yes I belive it is entirely possible.
It is not a dealers responsibility to go beyond the standard background check nor do I think most dealers are behavioral experts but I believe it is the dealers right to not do business with a person that makes them feel uncomfortable.
As far as private sale, I would not sell to someone I felt was "shady" but as others have said I would not base that simply on their appearance.
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Knight cadet
New member
Kreyzhorse said:
Then your FFLs are different than ours. I've seen a dealer kick someone out of their store for having droopy drawers, wearing an Obama t shirt, smelling bad, and not being able to speak English. All justified in my eyes.
Heck, I've sold guns to folks fitting most of those criteria at some point. Someone smells bad? Maybe they just got off a shift laying roofing tile. Obama t-shirt? Money's more important than political dogma. The guy from the Ukraine embassy didn't speak English well, but that's no reason not to sell him something to shoot in the local bullseye league.
The cues that make me leery go deeper than simple appearance. Suspicion of chemical intoxication, suspicion of mental illness, or suggestions of vigilante behavior are certainly a reason to put the kabosh on a sale. But droopy pants? I know a few good folks who happen to dress that way, and they appreciate not being judged by arbitrary criteria.
thedudeabides
New member
I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason I please.
Knight cadet
New member
These people got kicked out of the store, not just refused a sale.
I asked afterwards and this was the reasoning:
droopy drawers: "look like a thug, act like a thug, makes me think they're casing my store or up to shady business"
wearing an Obama t shirt: "I won't support anyone who is trying to destroy my gun rights by doing business with them"
smelling bad this guy didn't need an explanation, he smelled like urine and hadn't bathed in a LOOOONG time. He was looking for a cup of coffee and a handout. I wouldn't want that sort in my business either.
not being able to speak English: "If the guy can't speak English, how can I know that he understands my safety instructions or how to answer the questions on the form correctly?"
Everyone wants to be fair, but if some crazy looking guy wants to buy a gun from you and you sell it to him, how are you going to deal with your conscience if he does something crazy? Do you have the time and energy to talk to the police and ATF as part of their investigation? For FFLs, can you afford the lawyer to keep your license when the ATF shuts you down like they did the shop that sold the guns used in sandy hook?
I've seen many shops with signs like these:
I asked afterwards and this was the reasoning:
droopy drawers: "look like a thug, act like a thug, makes me think they're casing my store or up to shady business"
wearing an Obama t shirt: "I won't support anyone who is trying to destroy my gun rights by doing business with them"
smelling bad this guy didn't need an explanation, he smelled like urine and hadn't bathed in a LOOOONG time. He was looking for a cup of coffee and a handout. I wouldn't want that sort in my business either.
not being able to speak English: "If the guy can't speak English, how can I know that he understands my safety instructions or how to answer the questions on the form correctly?"
Everyone wants to be fair, but if some crazy looking guy wants to buy a gun from you and you sell it to him, how are you going to deal with your conscience if he does something crazy? Do you have the time and energy to talk to the police and ATF as part of their investigation? For FFLs, can you afford the lawyer to keep your license when the ATF shuts you down like they did the shop that sold the guns used in sandy hook?
I've seen many shops with signs like these:
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buck460XVR
New member
Kicking someone out of your store/refusing to serve them based on country of origin(not speaking English) or political affiliation(wearing an Obama shirt) is considered arbitrary discrimination under the Unruh Civil Rights Act and is unlawful.
Buck,
Unless I am mistaken, Unruh is California State Law (California Civil Code Sec. 51) and not enforceable in the 49 other states, D.C., or the territories.
And there is no protection for political affiliation in it (Obama T-shirt).
Edit to add: I am not an FFL but as I am in Cali., I would have the required signage to Refuse Service to Anyone properly posted. I can presume not speaking English is indicative of a status of someone that I would be legally prohibited to sell to unless they could provide the legal documentation that they are here legally. I then would simply not state a specific reason why I refuse to serve them. If they refuse to leave, then I would summon L.E. to explain it to them. They can deal with the language barrier.
Unless I am mistaken, Unruh is California State Law (California Civil Code Sec. 51) and not enforceable in the 49 other states, D.C., or the territories.
And there is no protection for political affiliation in it (Obama T-shirt).
Edit to add: I am not an FFL but as I am in Cali., I would have the required signage to Refuse Service to Anyone properly posted. I can presume not speaking English is indicative of a status of someone that I would be legally prohibited to sell to unless they could provide the legal documentation that they are here legally. I then would simply not state a specific reason why I refuse to serve them. If they refuse to leave, then I would summon L.E. to explain it to them. They can deal with the language barrier.
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buck460XVR
New member
SRH970, you are correct, Unruh is a California law. In other states, the The Federal Civil Rights Act protects the right of the consumer. Unruh does have provision for political discrimination as well as making it illegal to discriminate against individuals based on unconventional dress.
I agree with the above. Saggy pants, while it may have begun in the criminal sub-culture, is now more of a pop-culture phenomena. Heck, it's often combined with skinny jeans these days. I certainly don't look everyone dressed like this as if they're criminals. I shake my head and wonder how on earth we have reached this as the nexus of style... but that's another topic.
I would rarely take solely appearance and deny for that reason alone (there was one example of the gang dress coupled with the gang tattoo... don't even have to talk to that guy to feel him out). HiBC kinda summed it up with this...
How many people here are going to go out OCing while wearing a "shoot first and let God sort 'em out" t-shirt? Probably no one, and most would probably shake our head a little if we see someone else do it. That's a particularly bad judgement call, shows lack of tact, and doesn't further our RKBA. I wouldn't necessarily think the guy is a horrible person... just a little insensitive and not the centerpiece that I want on display for 2A issues. An 18 year old (or younger, for all I know) kid dressed like he came out of the chess club meeting while wearing a black trench coat just screams columbine, sandy hook, and a number of other crazies. Surely he should know that wearing this to a gun show is not the greatest of ideas. He may not be a bad person. Hey, for all we know he may have a friend close by that's catching his conversations on video. Maybe he's on some kind of fishing expedition for an anti-2A documentary and he wants to see if anyone will sell him anything dressed as such ala Michael Moore "bowling for columbine" style. OR... maybe this is a case of "fitting the profile" (no one here will disagree that this happens) and he is looking to flip out one day. Either way, I would be very wary of selling a firearm to him.
Let me get this straight...
You started this thread because you saw a ~18 year old kid that was dressed funny?
Really? Thats the strangest thing to you? Arent they all goofy looking??
Have you not watched some of the Youtube gun enthusiast videos out there?
There's a huge percentage of gun people that creep me out... including some of my own family
Seeing "shady looking" people of all ages at gun shows should surprise you not.
OP said:
You started this thread because you saw a ~18 year old kid that was dressed funny?
Really? Thats the strangest thing to you? Arent they all goofy looking??
Have you not watched some of the Youtube gun enthusiast videos out there?
There's a huge percentage of gun people that creep me out... including some of my own family
Seeing "shady looking" people of all ages at gun shows should surprise you not.
I've seen plenty of funny dressed teenagers... I've never seen someone who actually tried to mirror their dress almost exactly after Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold and then walk into a gun show. Hey, I saw some thug looking types walk in too but I didn't even pay them much attention. I have never seen this...
I am curious how those who are advocating the sale based upon "rights" would feel if the "shady" individual came into your store of FTF wearing with pride his full "gang" colors or outlaw biker cut telling the world of his affiliation? Even if he does pass the NICS, you going to sell it to him.
Personally, I am with those who recognize his potential right to bear arms but my right to sell to who I want....FFL or not. Thoughts?
Personally, I am with those who recognize his potential right to bear arms but my right to sell to who I want....FFL or not. Thoughts?
Rifleman1776
New member
Based on his appearance is not enough (usually) to deny someone the right to purchase a gun. Some in a group of gangbangers might give me pause but that is still being judgemental.
When I had my shop in Indiana there was a fellow in our small town who was known to be mentally retarded. Nice but really slow. One day he came in wanting to buy ammunition and a gun. I was really hincky about selling to him. I managed to get away and called one of his relatives who assured me he would be OK. I took her word and made the sale.
When I had my shop in Indiana there was a fellow in our small town who was known to be mentally retarded. Nice but really slow. One day he came in wanting to buy ammunition and a gun. I was really hincky about selling to him. I managed to get away and called one of his relatives who assured me he would be OK. I took her word and made the sale.
I was selling a 12ga shotgun once a long time ago, had a guy call me about buying the gun, asked him if he was an Illinois resident, yea, so am I and I asked him if he had his FOID, which he said no, then it got interesting, went from him saying he was willing to pay more than I was asking too saying he could have a friend with a foid come with on the purchase. Told him sorry I couldn't sell it to him advised him to apply for a FOID and trying to purchase a firearm in Illinois without a FOID was illegal in the state. Ironically I did sell the gun to a guy from Iowa who only had to legally have ID, drivers license and made a bill of sale to him and a copy for my records. Illlinois is a pita with the new rules on private transfers. if I do sell any more guns im more likely to just transfer threw a ffl than a ftf transfer.