Would you interupt an apparent kidnapping?

What would you do?

  • Get description of BG's and vehicle, retreat and call police.

    Votes: 25 53.2%
  • Run ready, challenge BG's verbally from safety of resturant doors and hope it's enough.

    Votes: 7 14.9%
  • Charge the scene maintaining cover, and make your best attempt to stop them by any means necessary.

    Votes: 15 31.9%

  • Total voters
    47
  • Poll closed .
No, I'm talking about legal classification. Burglary in and of itself is usually a misdemeanor (unless at night or an occupied structure), a crime against property-hence does not justify lethal force. I robbery is a crime against a person, so lethal force is justifed.
I am not talking legal classification or what is involved in the crime. As I said, I am talking about the psychological motivation for the crime. In a crime motivated by personal gain the criminal will seldom want trouble. They simply want the money. In a crime motivated by more violent desires the need for action is more immediate. :)
 
The couple tried to explain it to him before the police arrived, but he would have none of it. They insisted on pressing charges and did. IIRC he ended up either pleading to or being convicted of Criminal Trespass (a misdemeanor).

Well THAT was not included in your original scenario. Would definitely change the situation entirely.

Is that same part ("couple tried to explain it to him") part of your instruction curriculum--because if not, you're intentionally duping your students.

Not sure which state you're in, but I'm having a hard time understanding how a citizen can/could be convicted of Criminal Trespass in a public park without either A) a written RO from a judge or JP, B) a previous convinction in which the terms of parole/probation include staying out of such public places or C) the park was closed, locked and had signs clearly stating something to the effect of "no guests after dark under penalty of . . . "

AT which point the couple acting out their fetish would also had to have been charged.

False Imprisonment? Yep, I'd buy that charge with no problem.

No he didn't. He saw no one getting beaten, he saw no one in danger of death or serious bodily injury. A CCW or gun is not a hero waiting to happen badge!

Several things, and these are from the perspective of a guy who toted a federal badge around for a good number of years and worked with dozens upon dozens of local, regional and state LE agencies and departments.

What the good samaritan saw was a sexual assault taking place. It wasn't until both man and woman agreed it was consensual that the problem began.

The CCW has nothing to do with the man's actions--he could've just as easily been Chuck Norris and dropkicked the fetish man's butt right off the planet before Mr. and Mrs. Fetish had a chance to explain that they were just havng a little fun in a PUBLIC PLACE.

Had the good samaritan backed off after seeing it was two consenting adults, chances are extremely high that there would have been no hit, no foul.

That is exactly the type of attitude that will get you in jail when you think you are doing the right thing. It comes from making a decision based on emotion and not fact.

FACT--the good samaritan had every reason to believe the woman was being sexually assaulted. She had her pants off, and even later admitted they were acting out a "fantasy."

The samaritan's problem is NOT with intervening, but failing to break contact once it was ascertained that they were two consenting adults. Rare is the attempted rape victim who will defend her assailant.

That is the whole point: IF YOU DON'T KNOW ALL OF THE FACTS, YOU SHOULD NOT GET INVOLVED! Unless and until someone is clearly in danger of death or serious bodily injury and you have no other way to stop the assault.

Sorry. If I see a woman tied to a tree, clothing off or torn, screaming as a man is pawing at her in a dark, isolated park, I'm not going to sit and deliberate whether or not they're acting out a fantasy or if they're trying to break into internet porn.

Nor am I going to wake up my attorney to see what probable/possible prison stretch I'm looking at.

I am going to have my weapon zeroed on the would-be assailant's head and screaming at him to get his blankety-blank blanking hands in the air or I'll blow his blankety blank blanking head off. I've shouted that more than enough times in my life to do it with absolute credible and believable authority.

Your training scenario is a one-in-a-million scenario, and what's more, serves to confuse rather than confirm.

And I state that as my opinion as a combat vet and former federal lawman who's been on both sides of such situations in which I was either shot at, or forced to shoot. Furthering that is my stint as a firearms instructor teaching new agents at the academy "shoot/no-shoot" situations. We were also schooled on that earlier in my life at the JFK center at Bragg.

Not saying it can't be tricky--it can be bad tricky. And I have zero arguement that CCW is NOT a badge & credentials. But what would've been the difference if the good samaritan had charged in with an asp baton or baseball bat or samurai sword?

Result was the same--he thought he was preventing a sexual assault. Good. Found out they were two consenting adults and continued to press the issue. Bad.

You can preach from your pulpit of moral righteousness all you want and it don't mean a thing because we are not talking about morality, we are talking about legality. You can take your moral justification and let it keep you warm for the twenty five to life you get incarcerated for when you involve yourself in someone else's situation that you have no clear understanding of.

Two final thoughts:

1. Just how many CCL holders are warming themselves in prison because of situations like the one above you refer to versus how many acts of violence are STOPPED or PREVENTED because of a responsible CCL holder intervening?

2. The day we place a greater value on legality over morality when it comes to defending innocent victims and lives is the day we are finished as a society.

Jeff
 
I would've had the arresting cop's ass for breakfast and picked my teeth with what was left of his badge afterwards.

All such "let's see if we can trick unsuspecting civilian CCL students with one in a million scenarios" do is reinforce the concept that nobody matters in this country or world but you.

And the more that attitude/fear prevails among decent society, the greater in numbers and greater in strength the wolves among us grow.

The good samaritan had every reasonable, prudent and responsible reason to believe that not only was a felony in progress, but that an innocent women stood a better than even chance of ending up severely beaten at best, dead at the worst. Her little fetish having her pants down around her ankles only gave greater probable cause for the good citizen to act as he did.

Any cop who saw and heard that story and STILL arrested the good samaritan doesn't have the common sense nor judgement nor MENTAL ABILITY to stand behind a badge.

And THAT (IMHO) is the best response in this thread so far.

If I were the responding officer, I would have thanked the CCW licensee, made sure I had his name right to put in for a civic award, and cited and/or arrested the couple for lewd behavior, indecent exposure and public indecency. But, that's just me.

And I think the CCW responded EXACTLY in the right way. Sure, you're hearing what they're saying--but what proof do you have? All that you know is that you stepped in the middle of what looked like a serious crime, and stopped it. That's called acting in good faith.
 
I have responded to a kidnapping in progress and was thankful for how the situation played out:

The reporting party followed the van approximately 15 miles while talking law enforcement in via the 911 operator. It is unlikely the van would have been promptly located without the help. Given that particular scenario, an armed response on the part of the reporting party would not have been appropriate.

Every situation is deffient though, which makes these types threads so frustrating to many.
 
IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against
another person to protect the person or a third person from what the
person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force.
However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to
prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the
commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be
placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the
person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.


Here in Indiana if you see a woman tied to a tree with her clothes taken off screaming for help, it is reasonable to believe the man is using unlawful force. It is also reasonable to believe that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to a third person and to stop the commission of a forcible felony. That last highlighted part is important... it means not only can they not file criminal charges against you, you are protected from civil suits too.
 
Well if it was definitely a kidnapping I would call the police and then make an attempt to stop the kidnappers. It depends on the situation aswell, the time, the place etceteras. If it was in a place and I had a gun on me and the place was crowded full of inoncent people going about their lives it would have to be exceptional like a family member. If I pull my gun and they pull their guns there is a good chance that anywhere between 1-5 people could die or be seriously injured.

Is that a risk I want to take?
No.

If it was on a road and there weren't many people about, within close proximity of the kidnappers I would certainly make an attempt to stop them.

Once again I think its another topic that boils down to whether you're in the right place at the right time or the wrong place at the wrong time.
 
If it was on a road and there weren't many people about, within close proximity of the kidnappers I would certainly make an attempt to stop them.
I assume by "attempt to stop them" you mean that you would give them a sound beating with trusty Mjolnir. :D
 
I assume by "attempt to stop them" you mean that you would give them a sound beating with trusty Mjolnir.
Very good Mr. Penguin ;)
"Attempting to stop them" would have to be the most appropriate action to stop them.
 
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