Would This FFL Holder Lose its License for THIS?
- Thread starter B18C5-EH2
- Start date
Maybe, but it could be he simply had no idea and was curious as to what happened if he flipped it all the way over. If he wasn't very knowledgeable about AR's, it's possible he didn't even know that the safety wasn't supposed to go that far.
To elaborate on B18C5-EH2's post, it is designed to create a standoff distance between the shotgun barrel and a door handle or hinge when using a breaching round, which is a frangible slug (it disintegrates on impact, dumping it's energy into the target) that is used to force open locked doors. Police and military sometimes use them when searching buildings as an alternative to a battering ram. The standoff distance helps prevent the barrel from being damaged or destroyed.
SKULLANDCROSSBONES65
New member
G'day.
So a Shotgun door breacher is a spacer that attaches to the end of a barrel to ensure a minimum distance between the end of the barrel and the target.
Looks like it could be used as a battering ram.
So a Shotgun door breacher is a spacer that attaches to the end of a barrel to ensure a minimum distance between the end of the barrel and the target.
Looks like it could be used as a battering ram.
SwampYankee
New member
My bet is that it was illegally modified, hence the broken safety. It might even be part of the mod to add a third selector position, or it could have been an afterthought by the modifier for some bizarre reason. Remember, fullauto is not a hard thing to do with the right parts but most of us avoid it because we prefer not to spend the next 20 years in prison.
If it was a registered receiver, the ATF will have it on file. I suspect this will be the best situation for the pawn shop because ATF can figure out who screwed this up in the first place. If it was done illegally, now the ATF is going to want to nail whoever did that and that could be hard to prove.
If it was a registered receiver, the ATF will have it on file. I suspect this will be the best situation for the pawn shop because ATF can figure out who screwed this up in the first place. If it was done illegally, now the ATF is going to want to nail whoever did that and that could be hard to prove.
SigP6Carry
New member
Shotgun doorbreacher muzzles are supposed to be used with door breaching rounds. The long muzzle break ensures a positive hit on the part of the door you're shooting and directs the powdered metal away from the shooter and barrel.
Maybe its really freakin' broken?!
We are quick to jump to assume it has been illegaly modified, and probably it will turn out to be the case, but it just might be simply broken. It isn't the expected result of a "broken" safety, but I have seen some strange things happen over the years.
We don't know exactly what is broken, or how, so at this point, who can say for sure? I have seen an M16A1 fire full auto with the selector in the semi position, and NO broken parts! It was misassembled, but not broken!
All the FFL knew was that the safety lever moved further that it ought to. He apparently assumed it was broken, and passed this info along to the buyer. IS it the dealer's responsibility to know and understand the inner workings and misworking of every gun he sells? Yes, its nice for us when they do, but is it their responsibility? I don't think so.
There may be a law covering sale of an item that is known to be unsafe (like a car with brakes that don't work), but how, and if this applies to the pawn broker, I don't know.
I have seen an FAL whose lever would go all the way to what would be the full auto position. There was no full auto marking on the reciever. The gun would not fire full auto. IT did not have full auto parts. Only the safety lever moved more than expected. Completely legal rifle, just had an odd quirk.
A full function check of the AR in question might have revealed the capability to go full auto without shooting it, but a lot of people, FFLs included, don't know or understand how to do that.
We are quick to jump to assume it has been illegaly modified, and probably it will turn out to be the case, but it just might be simply broken. It isn't the expected result of a "broken" safety, but I have seen some strange things happen over the years.
We don't know exactly what is broken, or how, so at this point, who can say for sure? I have seen an M16A1 fire full auto with the selector in the semi position, and NO broken parts! It was misassembled, but not broken!
All the FFL knew was that the safety lever moved further that it ought to. He apparently assumed it was broken, and passed this info along to the buyer. IS it the dealer's responsibility to know and understand the inner workings and misworking of every gun he sells? Yes, its nice for us when they do, but is it their responsibility? I don't think so.
There may be a law covering sale of an item that is known to be unsafe (like a car with brakes that don't work), but how, and if this applies to the pawn broker, I don't know.
I have seen an FAL whose lever would go all the way to what would be the full auto position. There was no full auto marking on the reciever. The gun would not fire full auto. IT did not have full auto parts. Only the safety lever moved more than expected. Completely legal rifle, just had an odd quirk.
A full function check of the AR in question might have revealed the capability to go full auto without shooting it, but a lot of people, FFLs included, don't know or understand how to do that.
For added opinion, I feel that the pawn shop should not be held liable in any way. If we look at it for exactly what it is, pawn shop received what they believed to be a broken rifle, and sold it as such, with warning to purchaser to fix. Common sense to me screams that if pawn shop had any idea as to rifle's auto capabilities (and if it were, even the pawn shops ability to legally posses/transfer it?), then it would have been price jacked many times more than the 500 bucks, and the paperwork/fees handled. As it stands, money is the only factor behind business. If pawn shop knew, why would he shaft himself for a price lower than most ARs sell for used? Hell, pawn owner would be kicking some salesman's butt and firing him for not knowing what he had and losing multiple times what the sale value actually was, I'd figure. Just my opinion, from looking at it in it's simplest form. Out of curiosity, what fair price would a real full-auto AR bring in todays world? Would have to be many thousands, my guess. That is my logic.
Afterm some discussion and some research...
I find that legally the pawn shop IS on the hook, should the Feds decide to reel them in.
Under the law, as written, is does not matter if they knew the gun was full auto. They did sell it. They are not licenced to sell full auto guns. They sold it without following the NFA process. They sold to a person who was not cleared under the NFA process. The tax was not paid. IT happened, and the reasons are unimportant to the law. They are legally liable.
Now, the feds may choose not to prosecute, based on the circumstances of the case, they do haved that option. But they also can prosecute, and very likely, win a conviction.
IF the rifle is not a conversion, and in fact is broken (malfuctioning), as the law is written, the Feds still can prosecute. The law does not have an exception for malfunctioning firearms. However, truly malfuctioning firearms prosecutions usually have a tough time in court. Doesn't mean they don't try it sometimes, though. IF it is clearly and obviously a malfuctioning firearm, they usually don't prosecute, BUT they could.
I find that legally the pawn shop IS on the hook, should the Feds decide to reel them in.
Under the law, as written, is does not matter if they knew the gun was full auto. They did sell it. They are not licenced to sell full auto guns. They sold it without following the NFA process. They sold to a person who was not cleared under the NFA process. The tax was not paid. IT happened, and the reasons are unimportant to the law. They are legally liable.
Now, the feds may choose not to prosecute, based on the circumstances of the case, they do haved that option. But they also can prosecute, and very likely, win a conviction.
IF the rifle is not a conversion, and in fact is broken (malfuctioning), as the law is written, the Feds still can prosecute. The law does not have an exception for malfunctioning firearms. However, truly malfuctioning firearms prosecutions usually have a tough time in court. Doesn't mean they don't try it sometimes, though. IF it is clearly and obviously a malfuctioning firearm, they usually don't prosecute, BUT they could.
Sorry, but that is completely incorrect. BATF will prosecute the owner of the weapon as well as the pawn shop for failure to complete the proper paperwork and failure to pay the stamp tax.
If that happened in Az, no one at the range would have given him a second look because we have so many full autos at our ranges.