Would This FFL Holder Lose its License for THIS?

B

B18C5-EH2

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There is a pawn shop in the area near my work. I and three other co-workers have all recently purchased guns from this shop, and the place seems to be a stand up type of place.

I don't know the particulars but evidently this place doesn't hold whatever license that allows one to sell automatic weapons, silencers, etc. etc.

So anyways the owner of the shop took in a AR 15 type weapon in recently. they checked it out and realized that the safety was "broken" because it would go past its usual stop. They sold it for $500.00 to a customer and he informed them that he'd get the safety fixed. I guess this isn't a biggie since plenty of guns are sold without safeties anyways.

The problem came when the guy took the rifle to a local range where he intended on test firing the rifle. He sighted in, pulled the trigger, and to his shock and surprise the rifle rattled off multiple shots with one blip of the trigger.

The rifle was fully automatic.

Things got really sticky when off duty officers in the lanes nearby heard the rapid, automatic fire. I don't know the particulars here but evidently he was questioned about where he got the rifle, etc. and needless to say the pawn shop is under intense scrutiny.

So is this something that their FFL would be revoked for, and some hefty fine levied against them?

Just curious.
 
Sounds like someone could get into trouble, but I do not know if it would be the pawn shop.

If they can convince someone they did not know a broken safety would allow it to go fully automatic, they would probably be safe.

Some things that might work for/against them:

Have they ever had run ins with the ATF before?

Have they participated in other shaky deals? Buying stolen property?

I had a CM-11/9mm go fully auto on me. (Thirty rounds don't last very long) I took it in to a gun smith and had it repaired. A far as I and the gunsmith are concerned, no law was broken. The gun malfunctioned, it was repaired.
 
ATF doesn't like pawn shops. It's politicaly correct to characterize them as unscrupulous dealers doing things "under the table." While nothing could be further from the truth, ATF will probably go after the pawnbrokers because it "looks good" and they can make a big bust-instead of researching the person that pawned the gun.
 
If there was any way a broken safety could make an AR full-auto, there would be a bazillion articles on exactly how that safety broke, what caused it to break, how much force was applied in what direction, with pictures of every step, before and after, all for purely informational purposes only of course.

If the safety went past fire, it was an M16 lower. Probably unregistered.
 
My guess would be that the shop in question could vary well end up with legal issues, especially if they had knowledge (actual or implied) or had reason to believe that the weapon was automatic. If the ATF investigates and has a grand jury agree with the agency, there could easily be federal charges. IMO there is/can be a tremendous variation in the course of dealing so far as knowledge goes as to the history and workings of each firearm that a FFL may encounter, especially when dealing with used ones.. In Miller v. US, SCOTUS held that the individual lacked knowledge that the weapon was in violation (which, if one reads the earlier trial stuff, seems VERY sketchy that it was a violation and not a malfunction) and in reality, SCOTUS basically added a mens rea element to the violation.. I have a feeling that an FFL would probably be expected to have a higher level of knowledge than a random citizen, but if the FFL could reasonably prove that they, in good faith, believed the weapon to be in compliance, the FFL might not be convicted if charged.

There are differences between bonafide malfunctions and sales of prohibited/restricted weapons, however the technical implications are of such that as an FFL you may need to prepare to be able to defend those differences in a courtroom.
 
That is why you clean and inspect every weapon BEFORE you fire it ...500 for a full auto?

Somebodys gun was stolen and pawned or ...well I can't think of another reason...Or someone died and the little old lady didn't know what she had...anyone who OWNS a full auto m16 would not pawn it...worth way more than 5 bills.:confused:

I would hope the ATF sorts it out for your friend. Sounds like there will be alot of questions that need answering...

I buy from pawn shops alot and I would hope to think I would catch it before I went to the range....but hey anything is possible

No one went to jail? The rifle was allowed to leave ...with who?
 
My limited experience with gun shops is they don't clean and inspect anything

they buy used.... you get what you get.

I suspect the shop is in trouble... but how were they supposed to know the gun was full auto.... and I wonder what the broken safety has to do with it being full auto anyway.
 
Playing Devils advocate, lets say it was a little old lady that didn't know what she had and pawned it. Guy buys $20,000+ gun for $500 and then this happens. What happens if its a legit registered auto. Would he need to get with the original form holder for the transfer or will the ATF oblige with new paper work. I am sure someone has pawned a gun without knowing what it is or what its value may be.
 
I will get more details Monday in terms of where the gun is now, etc.

A few points to clear up:

- I don't know the guy who bought the gun.

- The guys at the pawn shop seem genuinely nice guys who seem to run an upstanding business.

I don't know a lot about guns, so when I asked one of the guys there if a shotgun on display had a "silencer" on it (it turned out to be a door breacher...lol on me) he quickly exclaimed:

"HEEEELLLLLLLLL No! We'd get shut down in a heartbeat for selling silencers! We don't have that license! That's a door breacher!"

Yes, yes I know I'm showing my ignorance by posting that I even asked such a dumb question, but to be fair it was from a pretty good distance away and I didn't take a good look at it. (I'm still a noob too.)

There isn't really a way for these guys to "test fire" what they've got either. I'm thinking that they honestly didn't know the auto rifle had been altered, and honestly thought the safety was broken. I don't know what kind of overall shape the rifle was in, what they paid for it, or if they took it in on trade for something else.

Perhaps the guy who bought the rifle knew it had been converted and only played dumb when he went to the range. I mean why would you intentionally push the safety past it's usual point and then open fire?

Anyways like I said I'll try to find out more on Monday.
 
Regardless of any "dislike of Pawn shops", so long as the Pawn Broker has is records in order and can show the BATFE the log and pawn ticket of the person pawning the weapon the store should not be on the hook. If the pawn broker even looked at the AR, if it was a M16 lower as some had mentioned, that is visibly obvious. If the 'safety' went past stop, it sounds like someone put a kit in and modified the lower to shoot full auto. THAT is the no, no. That person is the one the BATFE wants to talk to. So, if the broker can point them in that direction they will go there. The new owner, should have contacted the BATFE local office when they discovered the modification, and have all the paperwork ready for their visit. Someone should probably be prepared to loose their 500 bucks, because the weapon will go with the agents. IF the pawn broker knew it was modified or modified it himself, then he will be on the hook. But since they are required to be FFL, and have regular dealings with the ATF, I find this hard to believe. In the end, the person that brought it in for pawn will have some explaining to do.
 
I really dont see anyone "getting in trouble" over this.
Pawn shops dont always fire every gun they get, unlike the tv show Pawn Stars. And I bet they dont fire every one either.
Now selling a gun with a known defect may or may not be smart even after telling the guy about the needed repair. But is it actionable at any level, probably not.
Common sense needs to be used in this incident.
 
G'day.

I asked one of the guys there if a shotgun on display had a "silencer" on it (it turned out to be a door breacher...lol on me)
Click to expand...


hahaha ROFlol....









is what you will do now because you will have to explain to me what a door breacher is ... I suspect it may just be a fancy hammer!:eek:
 
In my experience, the ATF is not as bad as everyone makes them out to be. If if happened to me, I would just call my agent and tell her what happened. It is now up to her as to what I do. I had a really strange situation that I had to call the ATF on, and it turned out to be not nearly as big of a deal to them as it was to me. They handled it, and it was taken care of. No problems and everyone was happy in the end.
Here are the details...
I am an FFL.
I sold a gun to a guy online.
His FFL sent me all the info I needed.
I spoke to him (the FFL), and he new the gun was coming.
I sent the gun via USPS with SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION.
I advised my customer that the gun was on its way to his FFL and gave him a tracking number.
I got a call from the customer about 5 days later.
The customer advised me that he could not get in contact with his FFL.
The customer advised me that the package had been delivered.
I told the customer I would try to get ahold of the FFL.
I called three different phone numbers for the FFL numerous times and could not get an answer.
I left messages for the FFL to contact me.
It has now been a week since delivery.
The customer advised me he was going to take a ride down to the FFL and find out what was going on.
The customer advised me that his package (with my return address, and his tracking number) was sitting on the FFL's front porch.
The customer advised me that he took the gun off the porch and went home.
Now we have a big problem... The customer did not see that he had done anything wrong because it was his gun, and he had paid for it. He was right in some ways, but I was concerned that the gun had yet to be transferred to him, and as to the welfare of the FFL. The customer was also concerned (rightfully so) that something could happen to his gun. (rain, theft, anything really just sitting on a porch for a week) I advised the customer not to open the package or touch the gun until I could get ahold of the FFL. I then made numerous semi-frantic calls and e-mails to the FFL and left messages for him. When I explained to the customer that he may have commited a serious offense, he freaked! He never even thought about potential legal trouble that taking a package off someones porch may entail. He then wanted to take the gun to the local police department. I advised him not to do so yet, and that I would call the ATF and see what they wanted me to do. In between me speaking with him, (the customer), and the ATF, I get a phone call from his wife... Ohhhh lord, she was going nuts! I could hear the poor guy in the backround talking about how this was going to end up costing him a divorce. The wife was concerned that the ATF would now be swarming her house wearing the black ATF jackets with yellow writing on them. Helicopters, the whole shot. The poor lady was very upset. I advised her that everything was ok, and that I needed to call the ATF for further instruction. All the customer wanted was to do the paperwork and have his gun legaly. I called the ATF agent that I worked with while getting my license and told her the story. I advised her that we were also concerned that the FFL may be in some kind of peril. She advised me that they would forward the case to the ATF office in that area. I faxed her all the info and she said just to tell the customer to relax and keep the gun at his house until they could make contact with the FFL. The ATF works FAST!!! About 30 min. later, she called and advised they had found the FFL and he would be contacting the customer. He gave some stupid excuse about being out of town. What a mess! I was so mad at the FFL for what he had just put everyone through! He had the nerve to get nasty with me in an e-mail about calling the ATF! It ends up that he had some kind of deal worked out with the mail man to sign for his packages when he wasn't home. (A whole other story.) I filed a complaint with the post office on that one. Moral of the story... In my dealing with them, the ATF is here to make sure that things are done the right way, and to help dealers/consumers out. I may be wrong, but they have always been nothing but polite, professional and helpful to me as an FFL. In my opinion, they are like the police... If your a bad buy, or doing something wrong, you should fear them. If your a good guy, and are not doing anything wrong, they are hear to help.
Sorry if I jacked someone's thread. Just wanted to tell this story.
 
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SKULLANDCROSSBONES said:
is what you will do now because you will have to explain to me what a door breacher is ... I suspect it may just be a fancy hammer!
Click to expand...

Shotgun door breacher:

590brchrvang.243115657_std.jpg


The breacher in question was longer and looked more "silencer-like" IMO.

:)
 
Good story, Catfish.

The fact is that the BATF are not the bugger-man that many make them out to be. Ken (aka Wlidalaska) will vouch for that.
 
ATF agents are like any other group of people: some are nice people who are just trying to do their jobs, and others are humorless jerks. However, for the sake of argument, suppose one of the latter gets ahold of the pawn shop. In this case there are still three majical words in play: burden of proof. Unless the ATF can prove that the Pawn Shop modified the gun to full-auto or knew that it was full-auto, I doubt there's much they could do to them. So long as the shop's paperwork is in order and they don't have a history of shady transactions, I would think that it would be pretty difficult for the ATF to prove anything. If anyone is going to get in trouble, it may be whoever the pawn shop bought the rifle from and then only if the ATF determines that the gun was intentionally modified to full-auto.
 
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