mrawesome22
New member
Beautiful pics.
Those things eat rocks?
Looks like a steady diet of grass and rock lol.
Those things eat rocks?
Looks like a steady diet of grass and rock lol.
Would a muzzle brake help with muzzle jump?
- Thread starter David_S
- Start date
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I'm sorta at a loss in all this, based on the comments. 
All I can offer is what has always worked for me.
Way back when I was young and healthy, I toted a 9.5 pound '06 over many a mile and once up in the 11,000-foot country. Mostly, though, around 4,000 feet. If I had guesstimated the holdover correctly, I hit where I wanted, to 350 and 450.
I had the same general "sight-in, shoot Bambi" success with my 7-pound .243. Now, I have a 6.5-pound 7mm08 and it works pretty much the same. Sight in at the bench rest, hit something in the field. Same deal with a .223 on prairie dogs at 300.
If there is any consistency in how my results have been as I wanted, I guess it's from reflexively holding the rifle consistently. Benchrest, offhand, field position: Always very close to the same.
I put a fair amount of tweaking into the '06 and .243, but the 7mm08 and the .223 are showroom-stock.
Damfino...
Edit-add as a casual thought: If the barrel is free-floated (and you get tight groups) then it shouldn't matter about with or without sling, etc.
Q: Have you compared point of impact at the bench, with and then without using the sling?
All I can offer is what has always worked for me.Way back when I was young and healthy, I toted a 9.5 pound '06 over many a mile and once up in the 11,000-foot country. Mostly, though, around 4,000 feet. If I had guesstimated the holdover correctly, I hit where I wanted, to 350 and 450.
I had the same general "sight-in, shoot Bambi" success with my 7-pound .243. Now, I have a 6.5-pound 7mm08 and it works pretty much the same. Sight in at the bench rest, hit something in the field. Same deal with a .223 on prairie dogs at 300.
If there is any consistency in how my results have been as I wanted, I guess it's from reflexively holding the rifle consistently. Benchrest, offhand, field position: Always very close to the same.
I put a fair amount of tweaking into the '06 and .243, but the 7mm08 and the .223 are showroom-stock.
Damfino...
Edit-add as a casual thought: If the barrel is free-floated (and you get tight groups) then it shouldn't matter about with or without sling, etc.
Q: Have you compared point of impact at the bench, with and then without using the sling?
A brake will not fix a high shot. Try this. When sighting in from a bench, hold the rifle by the forearm with your hand, like in a shooting position. Place hand on the front sand bag, thats on the rest. No bag is needed in the rear at the butt stock. See if that makes a difference, or changes your point of impact. Since these new types of rests came into use, supporting the complete rifle, effects of recoil has changed point of impact. The type of rest with 3 rubber feet.
sc928porsche
New member
There are several things that you can do to reduce recoil. The easiest and least expensive is to replace the recoil pad with one that is designed for heavy recoil ie: shotguns and big magnums. Another is to add weight ( you can drill the buttstock and add lead and reinstall the pad). Or you can add a muzzle break or have it magnaported. The last and usually the most expensive is to replace the stock with one that has a little less drop and is fitted to your LOP.
For "muzzle flip" your choice is either to restock to less drop or to install a brake with top ports too, or magnaport just the top.
For "muzzle flip" your choice is either to restock to less drop or to install a brake with top ports too, or magnaport just the top.
semi_problomatic
New member
If you're zeroing flat but shooting down your poi will change. Also flash hiders don't keep the enemy from seeing your muzzle flash, it helps you keep your low light vision.
Clifford L. Hughes
New member
David S.
In 1961 I rechambered my 1903A3 Springfield to 308 Norma Magnum and I installed an 8X Herters' scope on it. The scope was mounted as far forward as possible. With the first shot the scope split the sikn above my eye. I was leaving for Wyoming in a few days and I had no time to purchase and mount a shorter scope. I took the rifle to my gunsmith and he installed a muzzle break with the porting along the top while I waited. Since installing the break I've had no more cut eyes. My break definitely reduces muzzle flip and backward recoil.
Semper Fi.
Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
In 1961 I rechambered my 1903A3 Springfield to 308 Norma Magnum and I installed an 8X Herters' scope on it. The scope was mounted as far forward as possible. With the first shot the scope split the sikn above my eye. I was leaving for Wyoming in a few days and I had no time to purchase and mount a shorter scope. I took the rifle to my gunsmith and he installed a muzzle break with the porting along the top while I waited. Since installing the break I've had no more cut eyes. My break definitely reduces muzzle flip and backward recoil.
Semper Fi.
Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
I Bench shoot only Rem. 700 LTR 308 Cal. Recoil isn't bad with a 308 but with a 20" brl. I would have to reposition after each shot. Did some research on Muzzel brakes, had a McArthur PGRS-1 brake installed and could not be happier. Makes shooting a pleasure with very little jump. I asked all the questions like you but honestly felt from the beginning that is what I wanted to do, and I'm glad I did. Go with your gut feeling
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
With respect to the subject of the thread, the bullet is gone before the muzzle jumps. Or, another way to look at it is that the muzzle doesn't jump anymore when out in the field than when on the benchrest.
Lloyd Smale
Moderator
never was a big fan of breaks on rifles or handguns because they increase noise so much that they can be painful to shoot in the field without hearing protection and im just not willing to wear hearing protection in the field. that said i have a 7stw remington that came with a factory break on it. I was out shooting the other day with it and my new cdl 257 wby and surprisingly the 7stw had substantialy less recoil then the 257. It shocked me! But the differnce in noise was noticealbe even with muffs on.
The answers given are very good information. I also don't like muzzle brakes on hunting rifles.
A few things:
First, a high-velocity cartridge rifle doesn't move rearward much before the bullet leaves the barrel. It's doubtful there's much difference in point of impact between shooting from a bench and from field positions, with the exception of variations in rest position/relative hardness, especially with non-free-floated barrels. Slings shouldn't be used for field shots IMHO, since they can drastically alter POI for rifles without large gaps between barrels and forends.
Do you presently compensate for the UP/DOWNHILL changes in mountain terrain? If not, you need to consider the horizontal distance to your target instead of the uphill/downhill distance at a particular distance.
Have you sighted-in your rifles by the rule of 3s? I sight my .270 Win in to zero at 320 yards and the 130 grain bullet never gets higher or lower than 3" from the line of sight. That also holds for most uphill/downhill shots at various ranges out to maybe 250 yards, provided you're not shooting at extreme angles.
JP
A few things:
First, a high-velocity cartridge rifle doesn't move rearward much before the bullet leaves the barrel. It's doubtful there's much difference in point of impact between shooting from a bench and from field positions, with the exception of variations in rest position/relative hardness, especially with non-free-floated barrels. Slings shouldn't be used for field shots IMHO, since they can drastically alter POI for rifles without large gaps between barrels and forends.
Do you presently compensate for the UP/DOWNHILL changes in mountain terrain? If not, you need to consider the horizontal distance to your target instead of the uphill/downhill distance at a particular distance.
Have you sighted-in your rifles by the rule of 3s? I sight my .270 Win in to zero at 320 yards and the 130 grain bullet never gets higher or lower than 3" from the line of sight. That also holds for most uphill/downhill shots at various ranges out to maybe 250 yards, provided you're not shooting at extreme angles.
JP
sc928porsche
New member
Reducing the recoil will help you with your flinch. Reducing the muzzle rise decreases your recovery time for the next shot when going rapid fire or in some cases, full auto. For your purpose, reducing the recoil is probably the best bet although for peace of mind reducing the "flip" may help you.
Well, I have been away for a few days with my 7x57 rather than the 270WSM. Made no difference as I did not see or hear anything apart from lots of sign high up. 
I was a bit surprised to see this thread still going so a big thanks to all of you who have contributed especially those who have had positive experiences with muzzle brakes. I talked to a local gunsmith who described the 270WSM in a lightweight rifle as "a bit frisky" and stated that he had tamed a few with a brake. So I am going to "bite the bullet" and have him fit a brake after Easter.
Before everyone jumps in again, this is not to increase accuracy (which it can't do as the brake does not come into effect till the bullet leaves the barrel as Crowhunter pointed out in an early reply) but to reduce felt recoil and thereby nip in the bud a developing flinch which I am sure is the root of my problem.
The gunsmith reckons the shooter does not notice much difference in sound with a brake but anyone standing to the side does. He also reckons that with the reduced jump in the muzzle it is easier to call the shot through the scope and to take a second shot if required. The downside apart from the increased noise is that the rifle will be a couple of inches longer which will make it that much more difficult to handle in the bush or when sidling around bluffs with the rifle slung over your back to leave both hands free for climbing.
I am sure the change in shooting position between target and field was also a factor but I have managed this for many years with the 7x57 so don't expect a problem with a tamed WSM. Just have to practice.
A few comments on some of the recent posts.
Picher. The barrel is fully floated and yes, there are marked differences between field and target positions due to the nature of the terrain. Field shots are nearly always taken prone but the fore-end rest can be anything from a pack, rolled up jacket, rock, tussock or hebe bush or any combination of them. I will experiment with the sling once the brake is fitted - probably won't use it.
And yes we always compensate for uphill/downhill shooting as I explained in an earlier post. The table I paste to my rangefinder as illustrated in that post has the impact for 30° listed. e.g bullet will impact 3.5" at 300 yards compared to 6.1" for a horizontal shot . I carry a more detailed version of this table with corrections for 15° and 45° at 25 yard intervals. With most shots we have time to consult this. If we have time we estimate the slope by the "number of fists" with each fist measuring approximately 7.5° . Incidentally the method of using the horizontal distance as the range for calculating drop has no theoretical basis, not to mention the practical difficulty of measuring the horizontal distance with a rangefinder, but of course is better than nothing.
We don't use the rule of 3's but zero all our hunting rifles at 200 yards for simplicity and use ballistic tables for long shots. We memorise the impact at 300yds and interpolate if we don't have the tables. The impact at 400 yards is 3X that at 300yds.
Lloyd
We take ear plugs with us now so there will not be a big difference and if the gunsmith is correct the bystanders, not the shooter, are the ones exposed.
Thanks, Gunnery sergeant, Clifford
cw308
To which I can only add "Amen"
David
I was a bit surprised to see this thread still going so a big thanks to all of you who have contributed especially those who have had positive experiences with muzzle brakes. I talked to a local gunsmith who described the 270WSM in a lightweight rifle as "a bit frisky" and stated that he had tamed a few with a brake. So I am going to "bite the bullet" and have him fit a brake after Easter.
Before everyone jumps in again, this is not to increase accuracy (which it can't do as the brake does not come into effect till the bullet leaves the barrel as Crowhunter pointed out in an early reply) but to reduce felt recoil and thereby nip in the bud a developing flinch which I am sure is the root of my problem.
The gunsmith reckons the shooter does not notice much difference in sound with a brake but anyone standing to the side does. He also reckons that with the reduced jump in the muzzle it is easier to call the shot through the scope and to take a second shot if required. The downside apart from the increased noise is that the rifle will be a couple of inches longer which will make it that much more difficult to handle in the bush or when sidling around bluffs with the rifle slung over your back to leave both hands free for climbing.
I am sure the change in shooting position between target and field was also a factor but I have managed this for many years with the 7x57 so don't expect a problem with a tamed WSM. Just have to practice.
A few comments on some of the recent posts.
Picher. The barrel is fully floated and yes, there are marked differences between field and target positions due to the nature of the terrain. Field shots are nearly always taken prone but the fore-end rest can be anything from a pack, rolled up jacket, rock, tussock or hebe bush or any combination of them. I will experiment with the sling once the brake is fitted - probably won't use it.
And yes we always compensate for uphill/downhill shooting as I explained in an earlier post. The table I paste to my rangefinder as illustrated in that post has the impact for 30° listed. e.g bullet will impact 3.5" at 300 yards compared to 6.1" for a horizontal shot . I carry a more detailed version of this table with corrections for 15° and 45° at 25 yard intervals. With most shots we have time to consult this. If we have time we estimate the slope by the "number of fists" with each fist measuring approximately 7.5° . Incidentally the method of using the horizontal distance as the range for calculating drop has no theoretical basis, not to mention the practical difficulty of measuring the horizontal distance with a rangefinder, but of course is better than nothing.
We don't use the rule of 3's but zero all our hunting rifles at 200 yards for simplicity and use ballistic tables for long shots. We memorise the impact at 300yds and interpolate if we don't have the tables. The impact at 400 yards is 3X that at 300yds.
Lloyd
We take ear plugs with us now so there will not be a big difference and if the gunsmith is correct the bystanders, not the shooter, are the ones exposed.
Thanks, Gunnery sergeant, Clifford
cw308
To which I can only add "Amen"
David
Lloyd Smale
Moderator
just dont buy into that advice that its only the bystanders. My 7stw with a break will about take your breath away and certainly your hearing when shooting it without hearing protection. Ive never been one to wear ear plugs in the field. I know i should but figure anymore my ears only have to last another 20 years at best. One nice thing with this gun is it isnt a gun i use for normal deer hunting. Its used mostly for crop damage deer shooting and in those cases sticking in a set of ear plugs is no big deal. Most of the deer are at least 200yards away and if you do blow it on one all you have to do is wait 10 minutes and another will be there.
Nearly a year on with muzzle brake fitted
Just thought I would update this thread with what I finally did.
And yes, I fitted a muzzle brake made by the gunsmith I quoted in one of my earlier posts. It looks really neat if a bit grubby in the picture below.
I have been most pleased with the results. The Sako is now a pleasure to shoot with no more or even less felt recoil than my old Winchester M70 Featherweight in 7x57. My daughter put a dozen consecutive rounds through it the other day with no complaints about recoil.
I don't find the noise any worse than before whether firing it myself or watching others fire it. As the gunsmith predicted I can now see the target through the scope after firing the shot. I took a video of my son shooting while standing behind and to one side of him and the camera barely jumped when he fired, so the muzzle blast can't be that bad.
And in the field we are hitting what we aim at - in the last few weeks, 3 deer and a couple of pigs and they all dropped like stones. Haven't been high enough for chamois though but will head for the tops in the next week or two.
Disadvantages - the extra 2" on a long 24" barrel is a nuisance in the bush. When pushing through the undergrowth the extra holes of the brake allow more leaves and crud to enter the barrel if it is not taped up. And I had to tweak my load to get it shooting MOA again as the brake must have changed the barrel harmonics.
Conclusion - both my son and I must have been developing flinches due to the felt recoil from a magnum cartridge in a lightweight rifle. The brake fixed this.
Just thought I would update this thread with what I finally did.
And yes, I fitted a muzzle brake made by the gunsmith I quoted in one of my earlier posts. It looks really neat if a bit grubby in the picture below.
I have been most pleased with the results. The Sako is now a pleasure to shoot with no more or even less felt recoil than my old Winchester M70 Featherweight in 7x57. My daughter put a dozen consecutive rounds through it the other day with no complaints about recoil.
I don't find the noise any worse than before whether firing it myself or watching others fire it. As the gunsmith predicted I can now see the target through the scope after firing the shot. I took a video of my son shooting while standing behind and to one side of him and the camera barely jumped when he fired, so the muzzle blast can't be that bad.
And in the field we are hitting what we aim at - in the last few weeks, 3 deer and a couple of pigs and they all dropped like stones. Haven't been high enough for chamois though but will head for the tops in the next week or two.
Disadvantages - the extra 2" on a long 24" barrel is a nuisance in the bush. When pushing through the undergrowth the extra holes of the brake allow more leaves and crud to enter the barrel if it is not taped up. And I had to tweak my load to get it shooting MOA again as the brake must have changed the barrel harmonics.
Conclusion - both my son and I must have been developing flinches due to the felt recoil from a magnum cartridge in a lightweight rifle. The brake fixed this.
bbqncigars
New member
Well done on nipping the flinching in the bud. You may want to experiment with using a covering (thin plastic) over the brake at the range to see if it interferes with anything critical. If not, then that may keep crud from accumulating in the brake orifices.
Yes a good muzzle brake will eliminate a lot of muzzle jump.
Having said that, that's not the only method. Getting straight behind the rifle will help. You want the rifle to come straight back into the body, pushing your body straight back, not to either side, not too high or too low.
I'm not that good with words to describe what I'm talking about but if you go to the "Rifles Only" Web Site, Jacob Bynum has an excellent video "Precision Rifle Disk 1" that deals with "driving the rifle", or positioning your self behind the rifle to eliminate muzzle jump, up or down, right or left.
Jacob's methods are quite different then the way I shoot rifles, but I did take my rifles out and tried his methods, it does in fact work, with or without a muzzle brake.
Again muzzle brakes work, but regardless of whether you're using a brake or not, position had a lot to do with muzzle control, in spotting your hits or returning to your NPA.
Old or new shooter, I highly recommend the Rifles Only DVD.
Having said that, that's not the only method. Getting straight behind the rifle will help. You want the rifle to come straight back into the body, pushing your body straight back, not to either side, not too high or too low.
I'm not that good with words to describe what I'm talking about but if you go to the "Rifles Only" Web Site, Jacob Bynum has an excellent video "Precision Rifle Disk 1" that deals with "driving the rifle", or positioning your self behind the rifle to eliminate muzzle jump, up or down, right or left.
Jacob's methods are quite different then the way I shoot rifles, but I did take my rifles out and tried his methods, it does in fact work, with or without a muzzle brake.
Again muzzle brakes work, but regardless of whether you're using a brake or not, position had a lot to do with muzzle control, in spotting your hits or returning to your NPA.
Old or new shooter, I highly recommend the Rifles Only DVD.
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