Would a muzzle brake help with muzzle jump?

D

David_S

New member
I have a Sako 75 Finnlight in 270WSM. When shooting prone at the range with a rest and butt bag my son and I both shoot .75" 4-shot groups at 100 yards. The recoil is noticeable compared to our 7x57 and 6.5x55 rifles but is manageable once we realised the need to keep a firm hold of the fore-end and to pull the rifle well into the shoulder.

However in the field it is a different matter. On the two trips we have taken the 270WSM on to date we have both had difficulty controlling muzzle jump so that our shots have gone high missing the quarry - chamois in both cases. Ranges were 275 and 250 yards which is typical in chamois country. (See picture below of the 250 yard shot taken off HD video at 36x zoom at time of shot). In both instances we did not have a good rest for the fore-end or a particularly comfortable firing position but we have taken such shots successfully with our other rifles.

The 270WSM should be an ideal chamois rifle with its flat trajectory and long range velocities and the Finnlight is nicely balanced and light to carry round the hills, so I would like to persevere with it, but not if we can't control muzzle jump.

My question is whether a muzzle brake would help at all. Any suggestions or comments will be welcome. Thanks

David

Chamoismiss.png
 
Most of the brakes I have seen vent gases to both sides of the barrel and reduces felt recoil. If they also vent some gas to the top, it would help reduce muzzle flip. I've seen barrels ported specifically to reduce muzzle flip too.
 
It's Simple

MagNaPort ! Removes muzzle flip , and reduces recoil some . All without ruining the lines of your gun , adding weight or slaughtering your (and bystanders) ear drums !
 
Thanks everyone. It looks as if a muzzle brake or porting will help with the problem but at a cost. I like the porting option for the reasons Oneoldsap states but it is not quite so simple as you think, Oneoldsap, as I don't live in the States.

A number of gunsmiths here in New Zealand do make and fit brakes but I don't know of any who do porting. The porting option is particularly attractive as it does not increase the length of the barrel making the rifle no more cumbersome in the bush than it is at present. One gunsmith here claims his muzzle brake
you as the firer of the rifle, will notice that the .... muzzle brake, appears to have no more noise or blast than firing your rifle without it fitted
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Sounds fine on paper! I will investigate futher.

Thanks again to you all, David
 
On the two trips we have taken the 270WSM on to date we have both had difficulty controlling muzzle jump so that our shots have gone high missing the quarry
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Can you explain this further?

Is this on a followup shot after missing the 1st?

A muzzle brake won't help if the rifle barrel is moving upwards somehow before the round leaves the barrel.

A muzzle brake uses the gas that is BEHIND the bullet, so the round will have left the barrel before the muzzle brake can influence anything.

Once the round has left the barrel, there isn't really anything you can do to it.:D

Are you sure you aren't flinching or putting pressure on the forend/barrel that is different than what you are doing when sighting it in?
 
I think the poster above me is exactly right, the brake or compensator etc. will have no affect on the accuracy of your shot- in fact I concur that it sounds like your accuracy problem is ANTICIPATION of recoil and therefore "muzzle flip" and kick into your shoulder'body...

I think you first should spend a $50 (which sould be the most you need to spend) on a good good good recoil pad, I love LimbSaver but maybe you find a highly(er) recommended one, I am not 100% familiar with them other than LimbSaver but have had such amazing success with the LimbSaver on my Mossberg 930SPX shotgun I am now a customer for life.

That will make the shots much much more comfortable, and probably then you will not be afraid of the pain or pushing/moving yur body, spoiling the accuracy, THEN you can hit the targets easier.

If not and you still need the emuzzle brake, you will still enjoy the benefits (Immense benefits) of the recoil pad regardless andf its not that expensive.
 
Another question, are you sure your overshooting your target. I noticed with recoil sensitive calibers I tend to pull down too much, shooting short. Of course, after the shot the barrel is high, but the bullet wasn't.
 
The muzzle flips after the bullet has left the barrel.

A brake vents the muzzle gas to the sides, therefore reducing recoil.

You either missed because of flinching, or not knowing your rifles trajecory, or bad range estimation, or a combo of either or all the above.

A brake is not going to make the gun shoot any flatter or make it more accurate.

It will reduce recoil and increase noise to the shooter.

Give the gun to someone, turn your head the other way, and let them load or not load a round. That way you won't know if it's loaded or not.

Now fire the gun. If it wasn't loaded, did you flinch?

Are you shooting paper at 250 yard or are you just assuming where you should be hitting?
 
Can you explain this further?
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Crowhunter, your post has really set me thinking, and also the subsequent guys who posted whilst I was composing this reply. Thanks to you all for your input.

I think I understand what you are all saying.

In summary muzzle brakes come into play after the bullet leaves the barrel and reduce the felt recoil by porting the exiting gases sideways and backwards thus
  1. introducing a forward component to the rifle acceleration which negates some of the rearward acceleration
  2. reducing the "jet blast" effect of the exiting gases

So a muzzle brake is effective in reducing felt recoil making the rifle easier to shoot and minimising flinching tendencies but can't directly affect the accuracy of your shot.

In answer to your various queries.

I am talking of the first shot when hunting. (Prior to going into the field we fire a fouling shot as we have found from experience that a shot from a clean barrel tends to be high and off to one side). In the case shown in the photo the shot definitely went high. This was called by my hunting companion and can be seen in the photo as a small white cloud forming above the chamois' head. I also video'd my son's earlier shot and it clearly shows him shooting high at a 275 yard range on both his first shot and his two follow up shots, one of which dropped a chamois with a nick to the backbone.

Range estimation is not an issue as we always use a rangefinder having learnt by experience that range estimation in the mountains is "hit or miss" generally the latter.

When sighting in we use a sandbag under the fore-end and a small sand-filled butt bag. We use the leather sling to help control the fore-end. We sight the 270WSM to be 1.3" high at 100 yards and then make a final adjustment if necessary at 200 yards. For convenience we zero all our hunting rifles at 200 yards.

We know the ballistics of all our rifles as we chrono our handloads and then use Handloaders.com ballistic program to calculate bullet drop out to 500 yards. We have tested the program results by field testing out to 500 yards with the 6.5x55 and have found the program quite accurate. As we hunt in the mountains uphill/downhill shooting is common so we have calculated corrections for 15, 30 and 45 degrees. A ballistics table in 25 yard increments is automatically generated by our load analysis spreadsheet and we paste it to the back of the rangefinder for quick reference in the field. e.g.

Ballistics270WSM.jpg


The 270 WSM was a step up from the 6.5x55 and 7x57 we normally use and both my son and I had problems at the range with the recoil until we learnt to hold the fore-end much more firmly than we were used to and to pull the rifle tight into our shoulder. We also adjusted the trigger from factory to 2.25lbs which made a big difference. Before this we were both developing a flinch but once we changed our holding technique and adjusted the trigger the felt recoil was not a lot greater than the 7x57. And yes the Sako is fitted with a Limbsaver recoil pad.

Conclusion
I think this must be a flinching problem arising from a magnum cartridge in a lightweight mountain rifle. (Though our reloads are actually relatively mild producing a muzzle velocity of only 3,000fps). We can control this at the range but in the field where we use our pack or a jacket on a convenient rock as a rest and no butt pad, I suspect we are flinching or not properly controlling the fore-end.

I will fit a muzzle brake to reduce the felt recoil and then practice at the range and in simulated field conditions to get used to shooting the rifle in all conditions and positions. If this does not work I will sell the rifle and return to my 7x57 which I will use in the meantime. ...... But I do like the Finnlight though. Umm...maybe an 85 Finnlight in 6.5x55 or plain 270!!!

What do you guys think?

David
 
practice at the range and in simulated field conditions to get used to shooting the rifle in all conditions and positions.
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Excellent process and approach to the issue, and it's nice that you don't get upset about people suggesting flinch. Some people are too proud to admit it :rolleyes: I'd say go with tAKticool on a high quality recoil pad before you spend the extra money on a muzzle brake.

On a side note, that's a great picture :D
 
I agree with David S. Some type of muzzle brake may help reduce felt recoil and muzle jump. But it has nothing to do with you missing your target. I might use a muzzle brake on a rifle that was shot a lot at the range, but have not found anything that recoils hard enough for 1-2 shots in the hunting fields to justify all the negatives. I know some guys use them when shooting at the range to zero or work on handloads, but remove the brakes when hunting.
 
Do you use the sling in the field with the same tension as when on the bench? If not, you'll likely have a point of impact which is different from that of the sighting-in.

Always think uniformity. :) I don't ever use a sling. In the field, my left hand is more of a rest for the forearm than anything else. If I use some sort of hasty rest, I make sure the forearm rests in the same location as in my hand or at the bench.

Works for me, anyhow. Bullets seem to hit deer where I intend, and I mostly get one-shot kills. About all I can judge by...
 
just to clarify, you're saying you got a LimbSaver on this Sako rifle and it still hurts you something bad whjen you shoot it?
 
Practice as you hunt and hunt as you practice.

Since I still hunt (stalk and hunt) I typically have to take shots off hand or leaned against a makeshift rest. That is how I practice at the range. Then that is how I shoot when I hunt.

I haven't had any problems getting my bullets to hit where I want them to (or at least within an in or two of that ideal target depending on distance and other variables). Most of the animals I shot were one shot kills.

In your case its most likely not the gun and the fact that you're not practicing with the gun the same way you're shooting when you're hunting. Combine that with the possibility that you're flinching when you shoot and you've got missed shots.
 
Do you use the sling in the field with the same tension as when on the bench? If not, you'll likely have a point of impact which is different from that of the sighting-in.
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Art, I try to, but have only started using the sling regularly with the 270WSM to control the fore-end. Never needed it with the 7x57, 6.5x55 or .243 and we have taken a lot of deer and chamois with those especially the 7x57 and 6.5x55. The country where we hunt chamois is pretty steep and rugged and shots between 250 and 350 yards the norm. (See picture below of the country where we have been trying out the Sako 75). The 7x57 is fine out to about 250yards but I wanted a flatter shooting rifle with better velocities at the longer distances so thought the WSM might do the trick, but it seems to come with a price, and is not doing the trick!

Since I got the WSM I have also been working on my Model 70 Featherweight 7x57 and have now got it shooting sub MOA at the range whereas before it was nearer 2 MOA so that should make a difference with the longer shots. The Sako M995 in 6.5x55 is a very accurate rifle but is just too heavy to lug around the hills on a regular basis.

just to clarify, you're saying you got a LimbSaver on this Sako rifle and it still hurts you something bad whjen you shoot it
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tAKticool. The Limbsaver works fine and the felt recoil is not excessive when the rifle is held firmly. When working up a load firing 30 or so rounds I never had any after-effects such as bruising but I am having difficulty controlling muzzle jump or flip. The WSM is accurate on the range (.7MOA) so I must be doing something right there but I am having trouble transferring this to the hunt. Both my son and myself are shooting high in the field with this rifle only. I am beginning to think it is a case of too hot a round in too light a rifle, but I am not giving up on it yet.

David

Chamoiscountry.jpg
 
Practice as you hunt and hunt as you practice
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Hansam, I agree but all our range work to date has been either working up a load or sighting the rifle in to a zero of 200 yards, and not practicing our "hunting" shooting. We have been successful with the load development with the rifle now shooting more accurately than it did with the previous owner who used factory ammo.

When chamois hunting in open country there are not many times when you shoot offhand because of the distances involved. Nearly all our shots are prone with a pack, rock or tussock clump as a rest. And if you do spook a chamois in a gut or gully you are usually puffing too much from the climb to try an offhand shot. Most chamois are spotted with binoculars first followed by a stalk into a shooting position. And before firing you try and rest a minute or two to get your breath back to normal. The last time I saw a chamois which I could have shot offhand with relative ease (he was barely 50 yards away) I chose to take a video of him instead. Below is a still from the video.

David

ChamoisGlacier.png
 
David,

To be honest I am very impressed with the pictures and I haven't shot heavy calibers so I have to admit I'm not an expert at that part of the subject. However, I have shot a decent amount and have a pretty good knowledge of the sport of shooting in several areas so I feel liek I can at least hang in the conversation.

If you have the LimbSaver installed, and are willing to install a muzzle brake, I say definitely go for it. According to Wikipedia , a Muzzle Brake reduces recoil , and a compensator reduces muzzle climb. The two main disadvantages are increase (sometimes markedly increased) in noise and possibly overpressure, and light flash. IMHO in your situation this is basically a non issue. Who cares. Wear an extra set of earplugs underneath ear muffs or buy fancy hearing protection. and unless you're secretly sniping or shooting animals that pack heat and can shoot back, your muzzle flash won't be giving away your position to the enemy.

So I say install one and shoot it real good, because when you feel the noticable reductions in muzzle climb and especially recoil (I really really feel recoil is the issue here, and that is not a not, it's probably not even percetible to you) and you start shooting freer and more comfortable ,you're gonna shoot that target fine.

It's akin to a golfer having a "hitch" in his swing, sometimes he doesn't notice it, sometimes its small, etc. The recoil itself can do it. And I am not even saying you're recoil sensitive. I'm not, im not afraid of it nor can't handle it, but i'm only 5'8" and 140-150lb frankly it effects me.. I love my 12 gauge, but it moves me and bucks me ... I can't say I love t he pain, but its not killing me, but i can take it. But I am sure if I was shooting a hundreds and hundreds yard shot with a slug in my shotgun, the recoil would totally effect my shot. I mean what caliber rifle is a 12 gauge shotgun equivallent to?


And last- on my AR-15, I have the "AK74 muzzle brake" ... I believe this is a compensating brake aka / Muzzle Brake/ Compensator - didnt seek it out but I bought an AR impulsively, lol, long story ,and it had this on. Supposedly these AK74 brakes work amazingly on full auto, they actually pull down and to the right or something like that, making it actually simple to shoot an AK74 full auto full mag dump ... here is the text from an ad for one :

".......A very effective muzzle brake design ........ Muzzle climb is controlled by directing gas upward through three gas ports. Recoil is diminished by four ports which direct gas away at a 45 angle from
the weapon, and a contoured flat at the end of the brake directs gas
sideways. The two gas streams cancel each other and absorb the force of " ..recoil." .

So while you may not of course want THAT one, I say you just find one, get yourself a real nice one sinc we're talking a Sako rifle her , install that puppy and just start practice blasting.
 
David..I have little experience with muzzle brakes on bolt action rifles..but I have experienced this....I have a standard Winchester model 70 classic..stainless/syn..in 300 win mag.... I also have a Winchester model 70 featherweight..stainless/syn..in 300 win mag..with a boss system and muzzle brake....The featherweight is definitely a lighter gun..but it is a pleasure to shoot....
The standard rifle kicks like a mule....
 
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