stagpanther
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@ Paul wow! I couldn't shoot that well even with optics on my handguns.
Woods gun question(s)
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Cosmodragoon
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I mentioned that people are the biggest threat, followed by coyotes and black bears in my area. Well, the gap between them is pretty big. Wildlife will usually stay away. It can be dangerous to surprise or corner wildlife but their sense are usually good enough to know better. Exceptions obviously include when an animal is already sick or injured, or has gotten used to humans. Another big one is if you happen to get between a mamma bear and its young.
Bluff charges are real. Another real thing is that many animals, including big 'ol black bears, can be often be shouted away. The problem is that this isn't always true. The small chance that it is a real charge is the small chance of VERY serious injury or death. If an animal charges you or exhibits threatening behavior or is close enough to seriously injure you, don't take a chance. Shoot it.
Bluff charges are real. Another real thing is that many animals, including big 'ol black bears, can be often be shouted away. The problem is that this isn't always true. The small chance that it is a real charge is the small chance of VERY serious injury or death. If an animal charges you or exhibits threatening behavior or is close enough to seriously injure you, don't take a chance. Shoot it.
Hi Cosmofragoon,
I've watched a National Geographic episode on black bears many years ago. A male black bear in heat is the most dangerous to humans mammal in the USA. It will kill for no other reason than to kill.
The same episode indicated that most of what was previously known about black bears was proved wrong. Never play dead. Fight for your life.
As the article I've linked indicated, no one is capable of defining a bluff charge. We can only assume why a bear or any other predator might break a charge. However, it's pretty darn wise to believe that a blackie charging you is going to kill you. Hence, don't delay your response thereby placing your survival at the whim of a dangerous wild beast.
For my kids and me, the fear is crossing paths with a blackie while we're reeking of trout. He'll smell trout all over us and think dinner has come to him. Were such a catastrophe to happen, especially while my kids are with me, I'd want a gun I can get pointed at him yesterday. If I feel my kids' lives are in danger, he'll be dining on lead.
So far, we've been good or lucky. We avoid, avoid, avoid. I know how quickly a blackie can kill. If we're fishing a hole and a bear wanders into it, we'll leave. If a bear is in a place we want to fish, we'll find another. My kids have been taught from a very young age to never approach a wild animal, not even deer.
A back country trekker should carry what's best for him. He should be thoroughly familiar with his weapon. If recoil takes his weapons off sight picture (charging bear), he might not get another shot. Bears can sprint with phenomenal speed. Always carry your handgun on your strong side. It's wise to not allow anything to impede drawing and firing.
An L Frame of GP-100 loaded with 180 grain hard cast would be my second choice. A 1911-A1 chambered for 10MM might be the perfect wilderness survival handgun.
CA has the 2nd largest population of black bears in the USA. Alaska has most. Sit at a table in the Eastern Sierra long enough, and you'll see at least one black bear, especially at picnic grounds and campgrounds.
I've watched a National Geographic episode on black bears many years ago. A male black bear in heat is the most dangerous to humans mammal in the USA. It will kill for no other reason than to kill.
The same episode indicated that most of what was previously known about black bears was proved wrong. Never play dead. Fight for your life.
As the article I've linked indicated, no one is capable of defining a bluff charge. We can only assume why a bear or any other predator might break a charge. However, it's pretty darn wise to believe that a blackie charging you is going to kill you. Hence, don't delay your response thereby placing your survival at the whim of a dangerous wild beast.
For my kids and me, the fear is crossing paths with a blackie while we're reeking of trout. He'll smell trout all over us and think dinner has come to him. Were such a catastrophe to happen, especially while my kids are with me, I'd want a gun I can get pointed at him yesterday. If I feel my kids' lives are in danger, he'll be dining on lead.
So far, we've been good or lucky. We avoid, avoid, avoid. I know how quickly a blackie can kill. If we're fishing a hole and a bear wanders into it, we'll leave. If a bear is in a place we want to fish, we'll find another. My kids have been taught from a very young age to never approach a wild animal, not even deer.
A back country trekker should carry what's best for him. He should be thoroughly familiar with his weapon. If recoil takes his weapons off sight picture (charging bear), he might not get another shot. Bears can sprint with phenomenal speed. Always carry your handgun on your strong side. It's wise to not allow anything to impede drawing and firing.
An L Frame of GP-100 loaded with 180 grain hard cast would be my second choice. A 1911-A1 chambered for 10MM might be the perfect wilderness survival handgun.
CA has the 2nd largest population of black bears in the USA. Alaska has most. Sit at a table in the Eastern Sierra long enough, and you'll see at least one black bear, especially at picnic grounds and campgrounds.
big al hunter
New member
Then you must have seen an awful lot. I live and hunt in the most dense bear population in the state.
Have any of them charged you? Bluff or otherwise? Well I haven't either.
A charge isn't that common. They usually head the other way. But I can agree that when the time comes that one does charge, it will be fast. And the first shot better count, may not get many more. Much less a reload and another magazine unloaded.
Good to see you're finally getting it, after 24 posts.
No doubt the .45acp is a proven antipersonnel round.
Where it's fallen short many times is penetration, and stopping an aggressive bear that's charging you isn't the same as stopping an aggressive human.
That's why you see 45 fans suggesting the step up to the .45 Super for an outdoor/trail gun due to the additional 'ommph' behind the bullet. Unfortunately you can't find .45 Super ammo anywhere, at least not conveniently, as compared with the availability of the 10mm AUTO.
The 10mm, having better sectional density than the .45acp, gives you penetration in spades. It can do everything the .45acp can do, and then can do additional tasks better than the .45.
That's why Col. Jeff Cooper, the famous '.45 1911 guru,' advocated for the undiluted 10mm - because it was 'a better .45.'
agtman,
Jeff Cooper was the primary advocate for the 10MM. After a few years, he returned home: 1911-A1 .45 ACP
What's your Ouija tell you about sufficient penetration? How far would you expect +P 230 grain ball .45 round would penetrate? 255 grain hard cast?
The 10MM with 220 grain cast MIGHT be "better" than the .45 ACP, but if we could quantify "better" would it add up to anything?
Like Jeff Cooper who actually had experience with both cartridges, of the two: 10MM &.45 ACP, I'll go with the latter. You go with what floats your canoe.
My guess is you have no actual experience with carrying a handgun in mean critter country.
Jeff Cooper was the primary advocate for the 10MM. After a few years, he returned home: 1911-A1 .45 ACP
What's your Ouija tell you about sufficient penetration? How far would you expect +P 230 grain ball .45 round would penetrate? 255 grain hard cast?
The 10MM with 220 grain cast MIGHT be "better" than the .45 ACP, but if we could quantify "better" would it add up to anything?
Like Jeff Cooper who actually had experience with both cartridges, of the two: 10MM &.45 ACP, I'll go with the latter. You go with what floats your canoe.
My guess is you have no actual experience with carrying a handgun in mean critter country.
Hi big al hunter,
An elk guide who also guided black bear hunts told me the .40 S&W works on blackies.
Since black bears attack on all fours, shots would be head, neck, and shoulders.
I'll cop to not being Rob Leatham of 1911-A1, but there's no doubt in my mind that I can fire three rounds in under a second and keep all on target.
I do know for a fact that 230 grain ball will penetrate a blackie's skull.
I have no clue of how many rounds Leatham fired:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x3N74GUT_Q
An elk guide who also guided black bear hunts told me the .40 S&W works on blackies.
Since black bears attack on all fours, shots would be head, neck, and shoulders.
I'll cop to not being Rob Leatham of 1911-A1, but there's no doubt in my mind that I can fire three rounds in under a second and keep all on target.
I do know for a fact that 230 grain ball will penetrate a blackie's skull.
I have no clue of how many rounds Leatham fired:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x3N74GUT_Q
BTW big al,
I've heard of WA's black bear population. Word is WA raises some monster blackies.
And no, I've never been charged by a bear or any other critter.
Truth be told, I'm more worried about lions. You can't hear 'em stalking you, and by the time you know death is near, it'd probably be too late to get a shot off.
I have no clue of how many times I've been in the Rockies and Sierras. The only hunter I've seen carrying a .44 Mag was me. It took me but one high altitude Rockies trip to figure out that there had to be a better way. The better way for me is the 1911-A1. I have taken a P229 .40 S&W once to the Eastern Sierra. On that trip we saw a blackie in a marina parking lot that had to go every ounce of 450 pounds.
I like big, heavy bullets that generate a lot of momentum.
There's a reason Big Five hunters use big bore rifles that propel huge chunks of metal to about 2000+ FPS. It's all about Big Mo.
I've heard of WA's black bear population. Word is WA raises some monster blackies.
And no, I've never been charged by a bear or any other critter.
Truth be told, I'm more worried about lions. You can't hear 'em stalking you, and by the time you know death is near, it'd probably be too late to get a shot off.
I have no clue of how many times I've been in the Rockies and Sierras. The only hunter I've seen carrying a .44 Mag was me. It took me but one high altitude Rockies trip to figure out that there had to be a better way. The better way for me is the 1911-A1. I have taken a P229 .40 S&W once to the Eastern Sierra. On that trip we saw a blackie in a marina parking lot that had to go every ounce of 450 pounds.
I like big, heavy bullets that generate a lot of momentum.
There's a reason Big Five hunters use big bore rifles that propel huge chunks of metal to about 2000+ FPS. It's all about Big Mo.
Actually, not. Between stints at the Mall, you need to study up on the history of the 10mm cartridge, Ninja.
After Dornaus & Dixon's demise, Cooper convinced Colt in 1987 to chamber a 1911 model in 10mm AUTO. It was called the Delta Elite. In your vast worldly travels, you may have heard of it ...
Neither would penetrate as far as a full-throttle 200gn or 220gn 10mm FMJ or hard cast slug, due to the 10mm's superior sectional density.
'Better' can be quantified comparatively in terms of the immediate result: the guy with the 'heavy & fast' 10mm hard cast load stops the bear's charge. He's alive; the bear's dead, or at least no longer a threat.
The guy with the .45 fails to stop the bear's charge, at which point bad things happen. He's dead, ... or soon will be after the bear stops lunching on him.
Will do.
You'd be guessing wrong.
Tootles ...
big al hunter
New member
I hear that loud and clear. I was stalked by a cougar about 10 years ago. I was elk hunting in dense forest. I spotted some elk that were acting alarmed, but they were looking behind me rather than at me. Usually when I run into elk at 40 yards they stare intently at me....well the cat was behind me and closing the distance. When I looked back to see what the elk we're looking at I spotted the cat. 20 yards away and in perfect position to pounce.
We had a few moments of looking at each other. I decided not to shoot unless it moved toward me. When I couldn't hold my rifle on target any longer I just stood there in awe of the circumstances I was in. Figured if I ran it would trigger prey response so I picked up a stick and yelled. Nothing I did made him move a muscle. I decided to chase him away or shoot him. When I took 2 steps towards him he cowered and turned broadside. Then slowly walked away.
Never been so scared in all my life. Had bears at 5 feet and elk run past so close I could touch them....nothing comes close to the feeling after you realize that a cat was looking at you like a mouse.
Hi big al,
That cat was one extremely dangerous critter. I will not question your decision to let it live.
Hindsight is always 20/20. One would hope that other hunters would be as lucky.
I've wondered how many lions have seen me without my knowing it.
The date I killed a massive Rocky Mountain bull elk, my guide and I saw a young blackie running away from us. It was feeding on an elk carcass. If it had been a mature blackie, I doubt it would have run from the elk carcass.
While I'm actually hunting as opposed to scouting, etc., I never carry a handgun. I usually sling my rifle until I get in thick stuff.
I did run across a bull moose in heat in Wyoming. I was deer hunting. My rifle was slung over my shoulder. He had a cow with him. I stood still and prayed. Had he decided to charge, there was no way I would have gotten off a shot. Thankfully, after what seemed an eternity of my standing absolutely motionless, he and his girlfriend meandered in another direction.
I do not buy in to the now espoused response when encountering mean critters of making noise and making ourselves appear large. To me, making noise might be taken as prey in distress triggering an attack. Movement might trigger a mean critter's predatory instincts. When I see critters that could kill me, I'll remain motionless and absolutely quiet. What might happen will be a mean critter's choice, not mine.
BTW, while offshore fishing, I've seen great whites close enough to touch. Great whites are killing machines. Watching them school by our boats with mouths open and massive teeth clearly visible is a sight that'll force you to know how it would turn out were one to fall overboard.
A recent lion attack in Colorado:
https://www.boston25news.com/news/t...om-pries-boys-arm-from-cougars-jaws/936819573
This 16 year old girl, from WA, arrowed a lion after she saw it stalking her little brother:
https://www.newsmax.com/thewire/teen-saves-kid-cougar/2018/09/17/id/882066/
That cat was one extremely dangerous critter. I will not question your decision to let it live.
Hindsight is always 20/20. One would hope that other hunters would be as lucky.
I've wondered how many lions have seen me without my knowing it.
The date I killed a massive Rocky Mountain bull elk, my guide and I saw a young blackie running away from us. It was feeding on an elk carcass. If it had been a mature blackie, I doubt it would have run from the elk carcass.
While I'm actually hunting as opposed to scouting, etc., I never carry a handgun. I usually sling my rifle until I get in thick stuff.
I did run across a bull moose in heat in Wyoming. I was deer hunting. My rifle was slung over my shoulder. He had a cow with him. I stood still and prayed. Had he decided to charge, there was no way I would have gotten off a shot. Thankfully, after what seemed an eternity of my standing absolutely motionless, he and his girlfriend meandered in another direction.
I do not buy in to the now espoused response when encountering mean critters of making noise and making ourselves appear large. To me, making noise might be taken as prey in distress triggering an attack. Movement might trigger a mean critter's predatory instincts. When I see critters that could kill me, I'll remain motionless and absolutely quiet. What might happen will be a mean critter's choice, not mine.
BTW, while offshore fishing, I've seen great whites close enough to touch. Great whites are killing machines. Watching them school by our boats with mouths open and massive teeth clearly visible is a sight that'll force you to know how it would turn out were one to fall overboard.
A recent lion attack in Colorado:
https://www.boston25news.com/news/t...om-pries-boys-arm-from-cougars-jaws/936819573
This 16 year old girl, from WA, arrowed a lion after she saw it stalking her little brother:
https://www.newsmax.com/thewire/teen-saves-kid-cougar/2018/09/17/id/882066/
big al hunter
New member
That was the last year I hunted without a cougar tag in my pocket.
Two years later I ran into a fellow that had a similar experience with that cat about 300 yards from my incident. He also chose not to shoot it. Only because he was muzzleloader hunting and only had 1 shot. His friend came back the following weekend and the cat followed him. Last mistake that cat made, he shot it. 140 lb male.
I also hold still and stay quiet when I encounter dangerous critters. Seems to work well for me. Had a sow with 2 cubs at about 25 feet away. She was feeding on blackberries and had no clue I was there. One of the cubs wandered to a out 3 feet from me. The grass was tall enough to keep the cub from seeing me, but I could see it's ears and top of it's head. I'm glad momma was so involved in eating. I just stood still and waited until it wandered back over by momma bear again and continued my hunt. I was hunting bear that day, but I won't take a cub or sow unless she is opposed to me leaving without a fight. Nerve racking...but moving at the wrong time could have spooked the cub and turned momma bear into angry momma bear.
I saw an article about the girl shooting a cat with her bow to save her brother. And someone posted about it here in one of the forums shortly after it happened.
I think the local cats are getting more brave since the use of hounds for hunting was made illegal. They never get chased and as a result they aren't afraid of dogs or people. Only time will tell if my hypothesis is correct. But if attacks continue to occur more frequently the increase will show it starting from a couple of years after the law changed. IIRC the statistics we're pretty stable on cat attacks for several decades.
Good Morning big al,
Many years ago, a friend told me I could kill a ion in self-defense were my life in imminent, danger. He was a CA Department of Fish & Game warden.
Since wacky Californians have voted to manage wildlife emotionally as opposed to scientifically, all lion hunting is illegal in CA. So we unless special circumstances were to exist, there are no legal permits to hunt lions. They can be killed in self-defense.
My game warden friend told me that morons with suffrage have caused CA endangered bighorns to become more endangered. They care more about dangerous and efficient predators than human beings. That's gotta be indicative of brain damage.
I have no desire to kill a lion. However, were one stalking me within 20', it would be an imminent deadly threat.
I'd rather see ANY bear in very remote wildernesses than a lion. Those sneaky, stealthy SOB's kill by crushing spines at the back of necks.
In one of our deer camps, we're 35 miles from the nearest town, and it doesn't have a hospital. I've never seen a sheriff's helicopter. The point is were one attacked and survived, he'd probably die before he reached hospital.
Here's an story that reveals what we're working with in CA. My girlfriend was getting her hair cut in Dana Point. I walked to a Dana Point Harbor overlook. The sheriff was flying his helicopter very low over the west or north end of the harbor just above water. There were many people in the water, including women and kids. Many mako sharks (aggressive predators) have been caught in the harbor. People were gossiping about the action of the helicopter. I speculated that a shark was spotted and deputies were maneuvering for a position to kill it. An approx 30+ year-old snowflake became upset. He was good with a child being consumed by a shark, but he had an emotional breakdown at the thought of the sheriff killing a deadly predator.
How far are you from Squim? I have a lifelong friend who lives there. He's invited me up to salmon fish. I might take him up on that offer.
Do you hunt Roosevelt elk?
Many years ago, a friend told me I could kill a ion in self-defense were my life in imminent, danger. He was a CA Department of Fish & Game warden.
Since wacky Californians have voted to manage wildlife emotionally as opposed to scientifically, all lion hunting is illegal in CA. So we unless special circumstances were to exist, there are no legal permits to hunt lions. They can be killed in self-defense.
My game warden friend told me that morons with suffrage have caused CA endangered bighorns to become more endangered. They care more about dangerous and efficient predators than human beings. That's gotta be indicative of brain damage.
I have no desire to kill a lion. However, were one stalking me within 20', it would be an imminent deadly threat.
I'd rather see ANY bear in very remote wildernesses than a lion. Those sneaky, stealthy SOB's kill by crushing spines at the back of necks.
In one of our deer camps, we're 35 miles from the nearest town, and it doesn't have a hospital. I've never seen a sheriff's helicopter. The point is were one attacked and survived, he'd probably die before he reached hospital.
Here's an story that reveals what we're working with in CA. My girlfriend was getting her hair cut in Dana Point. I walked to a Dana Point Harbor overlook. The sheriff was flying his helicopter very low over the west or north end of the harbor just above water. There were many people in the water, including women and kids. Many mako sharks (aggressive predators) have been caught in the harbor. People were gossiping about the action of the helicopter. I speculated that a shark was spotted and deputies were maneuvering for a position to kill it. An approx 30+ year-old snowflake became upset. He was good with a child being consumed by a shark, but he had an emotional breakdown at the thought of the sheriff killing a deadly predator.
How far are you from Squim? I have a lifelong friend who lives there. He's invited me up to salmon fish. I might take him up on that offer.
Do you hunt Roosevelt elk?
big al hunter
New member
We have the same motional based decisions affecting our hunting.
I am about 3 hours drive from Squim. Fairly close to Tacoma, but out in the sticks. This year the spring king salmon is closed due to a small run I'm hoping the fall silvers don't have a similar situation.
I do hunt Roosevelt elk. Some big bulls running around. My fishing buddy has #12 or so on the Pope and Young book for Washington. He shot it 15 years ago, and every couple years it gets bumped down a number.
And we do have some big bears here too. Usually see sows with cubs, but occasionally see a big boar. A few pushing 400 lbs. The really big ones are a rare sight to see.
I am about 3 hours drive from Squim. Fairly close to Tacoma, but out in the sticks. This year the spring king salmon is closed due to a small run I'm hoping the fall silvers don't have a similar situation.
I do hunt Roosevelt elk. Some big bulls running around. My fishing buddy has #12 or so on the Pope and Young book for Washington. He shot it 15 years ago, and every couple years it gets bumped down a number.
And we do have some big bears here too. Usually see sows with cubs, but occasionally see a big boar. A few pushing 400 lbs. The really big ones are a rare sight to see.
stinkeypete
New member
Satrp... Male black bears don’t go in to heat. Because they are male.
The most dangerous animal in North America, other than us, is bees and wasps. Bees and wasps kill the most people every year and that’s probably under reported.
But if I came visiting, I have a nice .44 Magnum 5 1/2 inch Blackhawk I hunt with and if Elk hunting than’s what I would take in addition to my rifle.
I agree that cats are wicked and fast and could be on you before you even knew it.. One of my house cats sent me to the emergency room twice and he only weighed 18 pounds. Note: don’t break up a cat fight without a suit of armor on. My sweet boy cat defended our property like a panther.
I think you guys are talking about “mountain guns”, though.
The most dangerous animal in North America, other than us, is bees and wasps. Bees and wasps kill the most people every year and that’s probably under reported.
But if I came visiting, I have a nice .44 Magnum 5 1/2 inch Blackhawk I hunt with and if Elk hunting than’s what I would take in addition to my rifle.
I agree that cats are wicked and fast and could be on you before you even knew it.. One of my house cats sent me to the emergency room twice and he only weighed 18 pounds. Note: don’t break up a cat fight without a suit of armor on. My sweet boy cat defended our property like a panther.
I think you guys are talking about “mountain guns”, though.
stinkeypete,
If you want to expand this thread beyond wilderness handguns, rats cause more human deaths than any other living creature.
But we're talking wilderness survival guns.
What's it called when a male black bear has the desire to procreate? Would it matter? You know what I meant, assuming I used the incorrect term.
Guys like you ruin fun of these forums.
If you want to expand this thread beyond wilderness handguns, rats cause more human deaths than any other living creature.
But we're talking wilderness survival guns.
What's it called when a male black bear has the desire to procreate? Would it matter? You know what I meant, assuming I used the incorrect term.
Guys like you ruin fun of these forums.
Cosmodragoon
New member
Hi SATRP,
That's why I ended my post by saying: "If an animal charges you or exhibits threatening behavior or is close enough to seriously injure you, don't take a chance. Shoot it."
Speaking of watching black bears, there is another problem I forget to mention. Sometimes, black bears are just curious or want to play. Of course, that could mean ripping you open to see what is inside of you.
That's why I ended my post by saying: "If an animal charges you or exhibits threatening behavior or is close enough to seriously injure you, don't take a chance. Shoot it."
Speaking of watching black bears, there is another problem I forget to mention. Sometimes, black bears are just curious or want to play. Of course, that could mean ripping you open to see what is inside of you.
stinkeypete
New member
We don’t call a magazine a “clip” and we don’t call the rut “in heat”. We are talking “woods gun” because that’s what the title is.
Having been close to black bear country most of my life, I have never heard anything about the rut season being more dangerous. What we all know is to not blunder between mama and cub(s).
Sorry to take all the fun out of it. I just get tired of all the baloney.
Yesterday is my second hike in the woods this week and I protected myself with two tennis balls. Keeps the dog busy.
Having been close to black bear country most of my life, I have never heard anything about the rut season being more dangerous. What we all know is to not blunder between mama and cub(s).
Sorry to take all the fun out of it. I just get tired of all the baloney.
Yesterday is my second hike in the woods this week and I protected myself with two tennis balls. Keeps the dog busy.
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