Wollschlaeger v. Florida

No doctor has a right to practice medicine. Doctors are licensed by the state and subject to the restrictions of the state.

The state has the authority to impose all kinds of restrictions regarding the conduct of doctors when caring for patients.

The penalties for violation shouldn't be prison or fines but suspension or revocation of their medical license.
 
vranasaurus said:
No doctor has a right to practice medicine. Doctors are licensed by the state and subject to the restrictions of the state.

Kind of like...concealed carry of a firearm, eh? ;)

I'd respectfully suggest (again) that people rushing to pass laws to restrict the behavior of certain people that they find distasteful should reconsider. The laws passed tomorrow may be restrictions on behavior or conduct that you prefer to engage in.

And just because the state might have the constitutional power to pass a given law doesn't make the law wise.
 
If a doctor finds it distasteful to keep my medical information private then perhaps he should find another profession. I have to work with medical records and personal medical information in my job. I have no problem complying with HIPPA laws of which I have to get certified in once a year. I see no problem with the law the state of Florida passed.
 
I'm going to disagree to a large extent with those posting here. It is undeniable that the statute directly infringes on the First Amendment right of the doctors to discuss matters with their patients. It does not matter if the doctors discuss pure politics and tries to persuade their patients to vote for a candidate whom he or she endorses. That's the nature of free speech. Likewise, asking questions about firearms in the home, which at least is arguably safety related, is free speech. Even if driven by purely political reasons, it would remain protected by the First Amendment. In fact, political speech is given the greatest protection the First Amendment affords. As I understand the statue, it prevents a physician from asking questions about firearms in the home. I have no doubt this will be declared unconstitutional.

The problem here is that First Amendment Rights, just like almost all other rights, are not unlimited. What this is really about is physicians abusing their position of authority in order to further their own political agenda. People get up in arms, and rightly so, about teachers attempting to indoctrinate students with their own political agendas and this really isn't all that dissimilar. Doctors do indeed hold an air of authority, I've seen many people follow rather ridiculous advice simply because it came from a doctor's mouth.

Now, before I'm flamed for attacking doctors, let me say that just like everyone else, there are very good doctors and there are very poor ones. I have a bit of medical background as my stepfather is an MD, my mother is a nurse, and my father is a respiratory therapist while I myself am a nursing student. My stepfather is, I feel, a good physician and his opinion on medical matters carries great weight with me. He himself will tell you, however, that he knows very little about firearms or firearm safety (his only expertise in that area is the treatment of gunshot wounds since he's spent the last several years as an Emergency Room physician) and that he is not qualified to offer authoritative advice on such matters.

As Al Norris pointed out, a physician is only qualified to offer authoritative firearms safety advice if he or she is also a certified firearms safety instructor. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of physicians do not hold such a credential and as such, counselling patients on such matters is, outside of a few very limited circumstances, outside the scope of their practice IMHO.

One of the very first things that I was taught in nursing school is that one of the fastest and surest ways to have your employment terminated and lose your professional license is to operate outside your scope of practice. Medical as well as other licensed professionals have a specific scope of practice for a very good reason: their training is limited to a fairly specific area of expertise. To offer advice outside of what one has been schooled and trained for is a bad idea at best and downright dangerous at worst. Even amongst physicians, scope of practice has its limits. A pulmonologist would not recommend treatment for a GI condition just like a neurologist would not recommend treatment for a cardiovascular condition. Even an internal medicine doctor that treats a broad range of disorders will, if responsible, only take a course of treatment so far without consulting a specialist for that particular type of disorder.

As I said before, no one is attempting to restrict the political rights of physicians. A physician may still belong to whatever political organization he or she wishes to and may exercise his or her First Amendment rights just like anyone else. What a physician should not be able to do, however, is to utilize his position of authority in an attmept to force his political beliefs on others and that is what this law is really about. First Amendment rights are one thing, but exploiting a professional license and the authority that comes with it to further a political agenda is another issue entirely.
 
Answer the doctors question with a question of your own.

Doctor:"do have any firearms in your home?"

"Why do you want to know that Doc? So that when I say "NO" you can tell one of your criminal friends that it's safe to break in to my house and rob me?"

That ought to get a reaction out of them. ;)
 
I haven't read the complaint, but I've been keeping up on the blurbs on this one, so I have only a rough idea of what's really going on. In and of itself, I do not have a problem with doctors asking about firearms in the home, and giving basic, general advice on safety. I do not see it as being all that different from asking about swimming pools or household cleaners. I also don't insist on a doctor being a Red Cross certified lifeguard to tell parents not to leave their 2-year-old unattended at the pool.

Where I take issue is with some of the medical organizations attempting to have firearm violence classified as a "disease," and then equating firearm ownership with firearm violence. The two are not even close to synonymous. I also have some serious concerns about what happens to that information once the doctors have it. IOW, will insurance companies raise life insurance premiums for firearms owners?
 
I haven't read the complaint, but I've been keeping up on the blurbs on this one, so I have only a rough idea of what's really going on. In and of itself, I do not have a problem with doctors asking about firearms in the home, and giving basic, general advice on safety. I do not see it as being all that different from asking about swimming pools or household cleaners. I also don't insist on a doctor being a Red Cross certified lifeguard to tell parents not to leave their 2-year-old unattended at the pool.

Where I take issue is with some of the medical organizations attempting to have firearm violence classified as a "disease," and then equating firearm ownership with firearm violence. The two are not even close to synonymous. I also have some serious concerns about what happens to that information once the doctors have it. IOW, will insurance companies raise life insurance premiums for firearms owners?

Therin lies the difference that I think many people are getting hung up on. You can give very basic safety advice without even needing to ask if there are firearms in the house. There is a huge difference between telling Mrs. First Time Mom that she should keep any firearms and ammunition that may be in the house out of reach of her toddler and telling Grandma that she should not have a gun in the house becuase someone will take it away and kill her with it.

The issue isn't about giving general safety advice, that's been a widespread and common practice for decades. The issue is about physicians asking unneccessry and invasive personal questions of their patients for no reason other than to advance a political agenda under the guise of "public health."

Restrictions on such questioning is nothing new, questions about religeon, sexual orientation, and other such issues are commonly restricted unless medically pertinent to that particular case. For example, Jehova's Witnesses do not believe in recieving blood products. Rather than flat out ask every patient "what is your religeon?", patients with conditions that may require blood products are often asked "Do you have any religeous belief that would prevent you from recieving blood or blood products?"

Ideally, it would be a non-issue as a patient has the right to refuse answer any question or undergo any treatment. Unfortunately, many patients, particularly those that lack education, are not fully aware of their rights and some medical professionals use heavy-handed tactics to exploit that.
 
My big problem is #1 I don't trust any person with Brady. They can say they just want to regulate firearms but we know that is a lie. They want to ban handguns. So why would I trust any Doctor who is in cahoots with Brady?

It all starts out innocent....

I work with the military as a civilian. I have to deal with medical records and medical information as it relates to individual readiness. Every so often the military members have to have a physical exam.

Imagine my surprise when I get back information that a military members access to firearms is restricted. I usually notify the Commander and Sr. NCO in charge. WE are scratching our heads because we know these people and the pieces of the puzzle don't fit. The commander calls the individual in to counsel him.

The individual is like WHAT! As you know the military has a big problem with PTSD so they are looking for it big time. When you talk to the individual he says I told the Doc nothing about having behavioral health problems. The deal is the Doc never asks that. He asks a series of questions about it. If you answer yes then you get tagged. Most of the times the person is just having a bad hair week or month nothing on a permanent basis.

This can be a doctor or a nurse practitioner asking these questions. Who may have no background in mental health issues.

We then have to send the individual to a "qualified" mental health proffesional to get them cleared.

Imagine how easy it would be to slip this in a medical exam. Imagine then the Doctor making a call to law enforcement that this person has firearms and has mental health problems and is a danger to himself and others....

If you give the Brady folks and inch they will take 10 miles.
 
The order granting the PI is here.

What is interesting at this point, is the reasoning the Judge uses to uphold 1A rights. This can easily be turned towards 2A issues, in other cases.

I would now have to also say that I think the Judge is correct.<-- I've just reversed myself! :eek:
 
The biggest disconnect here is that it ISN'T free speech - I'm paying for it! If I am paying for his time than I want it focused on the issues I came to be seen for, NOT political grandstanding. He is free to mount a soapbox in front of his office during his lunch hour to expound on whatever he feels, but NOT when I am footing the bill.
 
But that is a free market decision as compared to legislative matter. You are free to go elsewhere. If you were compelled by something or other to use that doctor, I could see it as a judicial matter.

Personally, I would tell the doctor - MYOB and if it influences our interaction, then Bye, bye.

Luckily here, my Docs are fine with this and I have to ask them questions about shooting and my FOG array of concerns.
 
Similarly, the American College of Physicians (“ACP”) and its Florida chapter (“FACP”) advance the position that a physician has a “critical role” in providing preventive injury counseling on diet, exercise, substance abuse, domestic violence, risky recreational activities, use of swimming pools and smoke detectors, and firearms safety.
So how many of this group's physician members routinely ask their patients about and/or counsel their patients about the inherent hazards involved in activities such as motorcycle riding, sports car racing, horseback riding, sky diving, mixed martial arts combat competition, ...?
 
So how many of this group's physician members routinely ask their patients about and/or counsel their patients about the inherent hazards involved in activities such as motorcycle riding, sports car racing, horseback riding, sky diving, mixed martial arts combat competition, ...?

Probably not that often.

Still doesn't justify the Florida law, though.
 
I find this very interesting because I skeet shoot with my family doctor fairly regularly.

He shoots for the same reason as many of us do - it's a fun way to unwind after a long week of work. Funny thing, I guess.
 
I don't think the Florida law will stand. 1st Amendment rights usually get very broad interpretation.

I'm thinking they will protect doctors rights to advise their patients however they see fit - even if it is ill advised, politically motivated or whatever.

I could be wrong, but I think the law will be overturned.
 
It's interesting to note though that homosexuality underwent an exact opposite treatment as what's occurring with firearms.

Homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual until 1973. Doctors would even inquire into some of the signs that adolesents might be struggling with it.

If a doctor today did the same kind of inquiries in regards to this that were routinely done in the late 60s, their career would be ended in a very public way, in the national media. This is an example of how a topic became strictly off limits for physicians to bring up with their patients, or parents of patients.
 
It becomes a problem when,,,

Your doctor asks you about gun in your home,,,
You refuse to answer his questions for whatever reason,,,
He puts that refusal in your medical records and the insurance company denies coverage.

That's the situation a California doctor (Kaiser Medical insurance) threatened me and my wife with.

Aarond
 
The phrase:

"Bring Lawyers, Guns, and Money..."

I have a feeling the only way to get doctors (and Medical Insurance Companies) to stop these shenanigans is to sue them into the ground when they do it...
 
I would venture to say that an argument can be made that a parent who smokes in the presence of their children, and keeps cigarettes in the house poses more of a health hazard to their kids than the sportsman or hunter who possesses firearms and teaches their children responsible gun ownership and shooting.

It may be example of another boogieman that doctors hunt.
 
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