You said it, they answer to us, not one. Do I think you should be slapped on the pee-pee for something we all do everyday, no. Do I think you are rehabilitated now that you payed your fine, no. Will you roll through that sign again, yes. It is not a matter of more cops = less crime, more tickets = more revenue for cops in the era of irresposible tax cut. I am not a cop, I do not like some of the laws the cops represent, but here in Colorado, the general populace do not think we (collective) are responsible enough to buy *real* beer on Sundays. I do not think I can repeal the STOP laws.
Woe, my detest for traffic cops runneth over
- Thread starter Jordan
- Start date
- Status
CoastieN70
New member
Blind obediance to the law is a cop-out for people who can't or won't think for themselves.
Let me qualify that statement by saying that I DO NOT advocate unbridaled breaking of the law but the attitude of the "The Law is the Law" is assinine! What harm was done when Jordon rolled through a stop sign where no one was within sight in any direction? It is painfully obvious to me that the LEO was in hiding just waiting to BLINDLY enforce the law. Who's pockets got lined by this? A simple warning would have surficed and all would have been happy. Next time caught would have warrented a ticket.
A couple enroute to their honeymoon discover a .22 cal pistol in her bag AFTER they pass through security and have ALREADY flown to a second airport. She reports and tries to turn-in the gun and gets arrested! Again, blind obediance to the "letter of the law" when thanks should have been in order. So instead of their first night of their honeymoon in Cancun she spent it in an Atlanta jail until a judge with common sence releases her. BULLS"IT!!!
Laws are just rules and the people that write them expect that common sence will be applied in the enforcement of these laws.
I am not anti law enforcement I just expect to be treated like a CITIZEN and NOT a Subject!
[This message has been edited by CoastieN70 (edited May 25, 2000).]
Let me qualify that statement by saying that I DO NOT advocate unbridaled breaking of the law but the attitude of the "The Law is the Law" is assinine! What harm was done when Jordon rolled through a stop sign where no one was within sight in any direction? It is painfully obvious to me that the LEO was in hiding just waiting to BLINDLY enforce the law. Who's pockets got lined by this? A simple warning would have surficed and all would have been happy. Next time caught would have warrented a ticket.
A couple enroute to their honeymoon discover a .22 cal pistol in her bag AFTER they pass through security and have ALREADY flown to a second airport. She reports and tries to turn-in the gun and gets arrested! Again, blind obediance to the "letter of the law" when thanks should have been in order. So instead of their first night of their honeymoon in Cancun she spent it in an Atlanta jail until a judge with common sence releases her. BULLS"IT!!!
Laws are just rules and the people that write them expect that common sence will be applied in the enforcement of these laws.
I am not anti law enforcement I just expect to be treated like a CITIZEN and NOT a Subject!
[This message has been edited by CoastieN70 (edited May 25, 2000).]
Mike in VA
New member
If the visibility at the intersection was so good, why dincha see the cop?
As far as the 'quality' folks go, what makes you think the neighborhood has anything to do with driving skills or awareness? Does getting hit by a Benz feel better that getting hit by a clapped-out 74 Pontiac? FWIW,IMNSHO, pre-occupied mommies with a van full of grundoons or solid citizens rollingout of their yup-scale neighborhoods yappin' on their cell phones on thier way to work are plenty dangerous. I guarantee they aren't watching out for you.
As far as the rationalization 'that we all do it', well, maybe so, but its sloppy driving and ya shouldn't bitch when ya get caught. You obviously know better, and if the lesson only cost you $60 (vs. getting hit but one of them yappin'yups) you got off cheap. End of sermon.
The answer to your question is the cop's supervisor is happy.
M2
As far as the 'quality' folks go, what makes you think the neighborhood has anything to do with driving skills or awareness? Does getting hit by a Benz feel better that getting hit by a clapped-out 74 Pontiac? FWIW,IMNSHO, pre-occupied mommies with a van full of grundoons or solid citizens rollingout of their yup-scale neighborhoods yappin' on their cell phones on thier way to work are plenty dangerous. I guarantee they aren't watching out for you.
As far as the rationalization 'that we all do it', well, maybe so, but its sloppy driving and ya shouldn't bitch when ya get caught. You obviously know better, and if the lesson only cost you $60 (vs. getting hit but one of them yappin'yups) you got off cheap. End of sermon.
The answer to your question is the cop's supervisor is happy.
M2
Frankly Jordan,
I have no problem with what you did. With a clear view both ways of at least a half a mile and with no one coming, I have no problem with a rolling stop. But why didn't you see the cop?
I run red lights and stop signs on a regular basis at 2 in the morning. I look both ways before I do, for two reasons, to see if anyone else is coming and to check for cops.
I'm sure I'll get caught one day. Don't worry though, I'll be polite!
My justification? Conservation of finite resources: Gas and Time.
From what I understand about your post is that common sense needs to prevail.
I detect a certain measure of hypocracy when we say that the individual needs to be responsible and experience the consequences of our actions, and then we come down on someone who's actions, even though they may be questionable, the results harm no one.
Take the lady who used her handgun at WalMart to prevent further injury to people from the knife weilding shoplifter.
The response from the LEA, "Well, it may have turned out fine THIS time, but it could be WORSE next time!"
This is the pre-emptive mind-set, and it is damaging to liberty and freedom because it presupposes that such uses/actions are inherently dangerous and should be prohibited based upon the false assumption that "it could be worse next time."
It's a crock of $h1t, and Washington D.C. is full of it's stench.
By responsibly checking the intersection and slowing to a manageable speed, a citation for a rolling stop is just a revenue generator for your local Government.
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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com
[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited May 25, 2000).]
I have no problem with what you did. With a clear view both ways of at least a half a mile and with no one coming, I have no problem with a rolling stop. But why didn't you see the cop?
I run red lights and stop signs on a regular basis at 2 in the morning. I look both ways before I do, for two reasons, to see if anyone else is coming and to check for cops.
I'm sure I'll get caught one day. Don't worry though, I'll be polite!
My justification? Conservation of finite resources: Gas and Time.
From what I understand about your post is that common sense needs to prevail.
I detect a certain measure of hypocracy when we say that the individual needs to be responsible and experience the consequences of our actions, and then we come down on someone who's actions, even though they may be questionable, the results harm no one.
Take the lady who used her handgun at WalMart to prevent further injury to people from the knife weilding shoplifter.
The response from the LEA, "Well, it may have turned out fine THIS time, but it could be WORSE next time!"
This is the pre-emptive mind-set, and it is damaging to liberty and freedom because it presupposes that such uses/actions are inherently dangerous and should be prohibited based upon the false assumption that "it could be worse next time."
It's a crock of $h1t, and Washington D.C. is full of it's stench.
By responsibly checking the intersection and slowing to a manageable speed, a citation for a rolling stop is just a revenue generator for your local Government.
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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com
[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited May 25, 2000).]
You know, Stop signs without the white border around them are optional. It's a common law throughout the US.
Another interesting question closely tied to RKBA...
It's 0430. You come to a red light in the middle of town; you know, the light that takes 3 minutes to change and let you go. You stop, look left.........look right........ not a car in sight.
Do you: a) sit and wait the 3 minutes while your coffee gets cold? or b) after stopping and checking all directions are clear, do you simply go through the red light?
~USP
Another interesting question closely tied to RKBA...
It's 0430. You come to a red light in the middle of town; you know, the light that takes 3 minutes to change and let you go. You stop, look left.........look right........ not a car in sight.
Do you: a) sit and wait the 3 minutes while your coffee gets cold? or b) after stopping and checking all directions are clear, do you simply go through the red light?
~USP
Monday night, I was on my way home from the shop when I got pulled over. I was going west, cop was going east. He hit his wig-wags and turned around just as we drew together.
"F***, what now?" I thought as I pulled over... and noticed that I didn't have my lights on.
Cop strolled up and greeted me. I said, "Lights, right?" He laughed and said "Yeah, how'd you manage that?" "Sorry, been a long friggin' day and I wasn't paying attention. You want my paperwork?"
About that time, the shop owner, who is known to about every cop in the state (on good terms, thank you) pulled up. He came back and chatted with the cop for a minute, saying "He works for me. You know we got them bright lights all around the store; I always have to remind myself to hit my lights too." Cop said, "That's cool. Driving with no lights is a good indicator of DUI, so I just needed to check." Paul laughed and replied, "No way in hell was he drinking if he was working for me." Cop agreed and went back to his squad, ran me through, and came back. "'Night," said he, "Take care." I turned the lights on and drove home, shaking my head at my own stupidity.
Moral: not all cops are thugs; some (most) are decent types.
"F***, what now?" I thought as I pulled over... and noticed that I didn't have my lights on.
Cop strolled up and greeted me. I said, "Lights, right?" He laughed and said "Yeah, how'd you manage that?" "Sorry, been a long friggin' day and I wasn't paying attention. You want my paperwork?"
About that time, the shop owner, who is known to about every cop in the state (on good terms, thank you) pulled up. He came back and chatted with the cop for a minute, saying "He works for me. You know we got them bright lights all around the store; I always have to remind myself to hit my lights too." Cop said, "That's cool. Driving with no lights is a good indicator of DUI, so I just needed to check." Paul laughed and replied, "No way in hell was he drinking if he was working for me." Cop agreed and went back to his squad, ran me through, and came back. "'Night," said he, "Take care." I turned the lights on and drove home, shaking my head at my own stupidity.
Moral: not all cops are thugs; some (most) are decent types.
I've seen good cops, bad cops, and stupid cops.
Examples:
good cop: I was heading to a meeting after getting off I-40, cop pulled me over. Asked if I came to the area much, to which I responded no. Reminded me that the speed limit was 45, not 70. As I handed over my license, he refused to take it, and asked me if I understood both what the speed limit was and what he was trying to do. I responded yes to both and he let me go.
Another good cop: I was following a car and a THP officer pulled past me, got between us, and pulled BOTH of us over at the same time. I got a huge ticket but it was worth it to see this guy in action.
Bad cops: some THPs officers had a habit of pulling over young women travelling alone in this area and raping them. They were charged, but nothing ever happened to them.
Local sheriff's deputy shot an unarmed disabled veteran twice in the back from 10 ft. away, and claimed self defense. Only charge was failure to file a formal report within 48 hours and even that was dropped. Guy was total scum but he had connections
Idiot cops: guy pulls a woman over for drunk driving, says it's raining too hard to do the test there, so let's her drive another mile down the road to a covered area!
My point: cops are people, like anyone else, and have a potentially difficult job. They should be bashed or praised when and as they deserve it. The fact that they have a badge doesn't entitle them to any special deference.
I used to give them all the deference in the world, after all, they were out there protecting me. Then I saw cops who signed up because they wanted the ability to hurt or intimidate people and get away with it, to carry a gun, to be able to swagger around and boast (every notice how many former SWAT members there are, just like the millions of former Spec Ops troops (especially the MILLIONS of ex-SEALS) out there?) or, in some cases, to commit crimes themselves (my county lost more than its share sheriffs to prison for running drug protection scams).
Examples:
good cop: I was heading to a meeting after getting off I-40, cop pulled me over. Asked if I came to the area much, to which I responded no. Reminded me that the speed limit was 45, not 70. As I handed over my license, he refused to take it, and asked me if I understood both what the speed limit was and what he was trying to do. I responded yes to both and he let me go.
Another good cop: I was following a car and a THP officer pulled past me, got between us, and pulled BOTH of us over at the same time. I got a huge ticket but it was worth it to see this guy in action.
Bad cops: some THPs officers had a habit of pulling over young women travelling alone in this area and raping them. They were charged, but nothing ever happened to them.
Local sheriff's deputy shot an unarmed disabled veteran twice in the back from 10 ft. away, and claimed self defense. Only charge was failure to file a formal report within 48 hours and even that was dropped. Guy was total scum but he had connections
Idiot cops: guy pulls a woman over for drunk driving, says it's raining too hard to do the test there, so let's her drive another mile down the road to a covered area!
My point: cops are people, like anyone else, and have a potentially difficult job. They should be bashed or praised when and as they deserve it. The fact that they have a badge doesn't entitle them to any special deference.
I used to give them all the deference in the world, after all, they were out there protecting me. Then I saw cops who signed up because they wanted the ability to hurt or intimidate people and get away with it, to carry a gun, to be able to swagger around and boast (every notice how many former SWAT members there are, just like the millions of former Spec Ops troops (especially the MILLIONS of ex-SEALS) out there?) or, in some cases, to commit crimes themselves (my county lost more than its share sheriffs to prison for running drug protection scams).
Why do people have to make traffic citations a personal matter; and their justifications for breaking traffic laws make for some real fine reading also.... 
This state trooper was just doing what you [as citizens of Alaska] pay him to do. If you got a problem with the law go to the legislator and change it, don't hammer the trooper for doing his or her job. ie... don't kill the messenger.
How long does it take out of your busy life Jordan, to come to a complete stop at any stop sign? If you obey the traffic laws within your state then you will never have to deal with traffic cops again and you will be the happy one....
pretty simple.
This state trooper was just doing what you [as citizens of Alaska] pay him to do. If you got a problem with the law go to the legislator and change it, don't hammer the trooper for doing his or her job. ie... don't kill the messenger. How long does it take out of your busy life Jordan, to come to a complete stop at any stop sign? If you obey the traffic laws within your state then you will never have to deal with traffic cops again and you will be the happy one....
pretty simple.KAM_Indianapolis
New member
Well, in defense of the police officers in my town. A couple of weekends ago I was going to the bank. Saturday morning, right before the bank closed. Was going through a yellow light that turned red just as I hit the white line that marks the intersection.
Not only was a cop right there but it is also right in front of the police station. Cop pulls in behind me in the drive thru window. Asks for ID, etc. I basically said, sorry, I was a dumbass and I know it.
Let me off with a warning. And said thank you.
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Peace through superior firepower...
Keith
If the 2nd is antiquated, what will happen to the rest.
"the right to keep and bear arms."
Not only was a cop right there but it is also right in front of the police station. Cop pulls in behind me in the drive thru window. Asks for ID, etc. I basically said, sorry, I was a dumbass and I know it.
Let me off with a warning. And said thank you.
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Peace through superior firepower...
Keith
If the 2nd is antiquated, what will happen to the rest.
"the right to keep and bear arms."
Personally I think you should pay the fine and say thanks for pointing out the flaw in your situational awareness. Since you didn't spot the cop and still thought you had good enough perception to KNOW it was safe to roll.
Did he have a Ghillie suit for his squad?
One should learn to approach ambush zones cautiously...speed traps are no different from any other kill zone. Slow down when approaching military crest for example.
YMMV
Did he have a Ghillie suit for his squad?
One should learn to approach ambush zones cautiously...speed traps are no different from any other kill zone. Slow down when approaching military crest for example.
YMMV
My $.02, When I was younger I got tickets all the time, then as I got older I got them less. Was it because I drove more responsibly? Partly. However, because I felt less hassled and because I received some warnings instead of tickets I realized the error of my ways and began to appreciate less stressful ways in which to drive i.e., slowing down and giving the other guy room to speed by me. The last ticket I got was 1988. Since then, I've been pulled over and warned approximately six times.
[This message has been edited by tuc22 (edited May 25, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by tuc22 (edited May 25, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 12-34hom:
Why do people have to make traffic citations a personal matter[/quote]
Because roling through a stop sign or 75 in a 65 will cost you $500-700 as insurance surcharges over the next 7 years. CLEARLY, excessive punishment.
Because there are many places where excessively low speed limits or extra, unnecessary stop signs exist so that the government can have a revenue source that isn't tied to voting for tax increases.
Because traffic citation quota's exist, and everybody knows it.
The unfortunate part of this is the LEO's that are forced to effect these excessive restrictions, putting themselves in unnecessary risk because they 'needed' to ticket me for 'speeding'.
~USP
Why do people have to make traffic citations a personal matter[/quote]
Because roling through a stop sign or 75 in a 65 will cost you $500-700 as insurance surcharges over the next 7 years. CLEARLY, excessive punishment.
Because there are many places where excessively low speed limits or extra, unnecessary stop signs exist so that the government can have a revenue source that isn't tied to voting for tax increases.
Because traffic citation quota's exist, and everybody knows it.
The unfortunate part of this is the LEO's that are forced to effect these excessive restrictions, putting themselves in unnecessary risk because they 'needed' to ticket me for 'speeding'.
~USP
well I'll share my good Cop story: I was heading back to work and going 70 in a 45 on a 4 lane road. The road was deserted except for one car on the other side going the other way...Unmarked police car! He swung around and before he even turned on his lights I had pulled off the road and stepped out of the truck as he was pulling in behind me. Had my license and insurance ready when he got out and he explained what he clocked me at and I just told him that I was being an idiot but that I was running behind trying to go back to work. He dropped the speed to 60 in a 45 on the ticket and told me he did it so it would stay off my record and my insurance won't go up. I was very greatful and thanked him for his being so easy on me. I have never been pulled over when I hadn't deserved it so I have a very good feeling towards our LEOs here in OK.
I guess you have to look at it like this IMO: You say that you pay their salary and they work for you. Well part of their job description is to stop bad criminals and those who break traffic violations. This LEO was doing exactly what you pay him to do. You can't ask him to enforce only the laws you don't break. That will get him in deep and real quick. No flame but maybe if you hadn't been so sarcastic towards him he might not have written the ticket and just let you go with a warning.
I guess you have to look at it like this IMO: You say that you pay their salary and they work for you. Well part of their job description is to stop bad criminals and those who break traffic violations. This LEO was doing exactly what you pay him to do. You can't ask him to enforce only the laws you don't break. That will get him in deep and real quick. No flame but maybe if you hadn't been so sarcastic towards him he might not have written the ticket and just let you go with a warning.
Personally, I do not speed. I am a very careful driver for two reasons. The first is that I drive defensively to stay alive and undamaged. I am not a very skillful driver so I take no chances. The second is that I prefer to avoid the aggravation of dealing with cops. I would like to choose which laws I must break and traffic regulations are not among those. True, I might lose ten minutes of my day by abiding by a stupidly slow speed limit or an unnecessary stop sign but I am not willing to push this.
Some laws are worth breaking. They tend to be the same laws that require killing the people enforcing them. By that measure, I do not think speed limits qualify.
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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk
http://dd-b.net/RKBA
Some laws are worth breaking. They tend to be the same laws that require killing the people enforcing them. By that measure, I do not think speed limits qualify.
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Oleg "peacemonger" Volk
http://dd-b.net/RKBA
Heard this defense for "rolling (AKA "California") stop". (heard in Traffic School in Ca. )
The guy, a physics major, goes up, asks the judge and the officer to watch as he throws a ball up in the air. The ball goes up, comes back down. He asks the officer, "Did that ball stop?" The officer says, "No." The guy says, "Well, you're wrong. The ball went up, STOPPED, and fell back down. You just didn't see/perceive it as having stopped!" Judge dismissed the case/ticket.
[This message has been edited by CindyH (edited May 25, 2000).]
)The guy, a physics major, goes up, asks the judge and the officer to watch as he throws a ball up in the air. The ball goes up, comes back down. He asks the officer, "Did that ball stop?" The officer says, "No." The guy says, "Well, you're wrong. The ball went up, STOPPED, and fell back down. You just didn't see/perceive it as having stopped!" Judge dismissed the case/ticket.
[This message has been edited by CindyH (edited May 25, 2000).]
Destructo6
New member
Most of my many tickets have been been a case of the cop having me dead to rights. I never attempted to fight a single one.
That is until I was caught up in a CHP total enforcement of a particular area (Whittier Blvd at the 605 overpass). There were 5 CHP vehicles with cars pulled over all over the place. Knowing this, I was pretty cautious. At a nearby intersection the last car in the left turn lane was protruding into my lane, so when the light turned green, at 5mph, I pulled a few feet around him and continued on. A CHP Mustang pulled me over and gave me a ticket for "unsafe lane change" at 5mph, which he did put on the ticket. Needless to say I fought that one and won, because the CHP officer failed to show. I don't know if it was a case of knowing he was wrong or that 1 out of 10 isn't bad.
Is this area so desolate that there are no signs/signals on 99% of the intersections and there's seemingly no rhymm or reason why the ones that do, do?
That is until I was caught up in a CHP total enforcement of a particular area (Whittier Blvd at the 605 overpass). There were 5 CHP vehicles with cars pulled over all over the place. Knowing this, I was pretty cautious. At a nearby intersection the last car in the left turn lane was protruding into my lane, so when the light turned green, at 5mph, I pulled a few feet around him and continued on. A CHP Mustang pulled me over and gave me a ticket for "unsafe lane change" at 5mph, which he did put on the ticket. Needless to say I fought that one and won, because the CHP officer failed to show. I don't know if it was a case of knowing he was wrong or that 1 out of 10 isn't bad.
Is this area so desolate that there are no signs/signals on 99% of the intersections and there's seemingly no rhymm or reason why the ones that do, do?
USP45: I would suggest if that was the case, switching insurance carriers. There's a reason that insurance companies award thier clients for safe driving habits with lower insurance rates... go figure? ie.. no citations or accidents.
The laws of whatever state you live in are set by legislative means. If you don't think its fair or just; petition the law makers to change that particular law. There have neen countless studies done on wht these limits and laws are effective and proven to help with public saftey.
Most people don't have a CLUE when it comes to operating a motor vehicle, let alone at high speed or in a critical situation. Most accidents are caused by driver error compounded by other circumstaces they failed to recognize. The traffic laws are there for a reason, if people fail to respond to them, accept the consequences to go along with breaking these rules. Whether that breaks down to a traffic citation or trip to the hospital.
go figure? ie.. no citations or accidents.The laws of whatever state you live in are set by legislative means. If you don't think its fair or just; petition the law makers to change that particular law. There have neen countless studies done on wht these limits and laws are effective and proven to help with public saftey.
Most people don't have a CLUE when it comes to operating a motor vehicle, let alone at high speed or in a critical situation. Most accidents are caused by driver error compounded by other circumstaces they failed to recognize. The traffic laws are there for a reason, if people fail to respond to them, accept the consequences to go along with breaking these rules. Whether that breaks down to a traffic citation or trip to the hospital.
panzerfuehrer
New member
Quotas??? All I can say is we certainly don't have them in VT......We can write as many as we'd like.
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
Those that beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those that don't.
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Panzerführer
Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.
Those that beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those that don't.
Who'd me make *happy* by the action? I dunno, maybe the local community, or State Comptroller, or maybe his Commanding Officer. Who was just faced with a decision to cut cost somehow.
Maybe the guy was still pissed off because his wife ripped him a new one before he left home.
If he didn't have a camera in the car, maybe you can take it to court, request a jury trial. And see if the local DA, or whatever will be willing to go that far.
You'd have to have counsel, say up to $1,000 involved. Time off work, all that stuff.
The guy was right about one thing at least, "You can't make everyone happy".
ven Santa can't pull that one off. And he has all damn year to get ready!!
Best Regards,
Don
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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
Maybe the guy was still pissed off because his wife ripped him a new one before he left home.
If he didn't have a camera in the car, maybe you can take it to court, request a jury trial. And see if the local DA, or whatever will be willing to go that far.
You'd have to have counsel, say up to $1,000 involved. Time off work, all that stuff.
The guy was right about one thing at least, "You can't make everyone happy".
ven Santa can't pull that one off. And he has all damn year to get ready!!
Best Regards,
Don
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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
So far as I'm concerned, the vast majority of police officers hand out tickets when the law enables them to do so, as opposed to when it makes sense to do so. We have an unfortunate habit in the US of rigid compliance with any regulation regardless of how much sense it makes.
What interests me more is why cops have suddenly become a protected species in TFL, I am not aware of any Forum rules deferring special treatment to them.
As this thread opened with a thinly veiled threat about not arguing over the quality of our judiciary, can someone please advise if we are now officially muzzled on cop posts ??
Mike H
What interests me more is why cops have suddenly become a protected species in TFL, I am not aware of any Forum rules deferring special treatment to them.
As this thread opened with a thinly veiled threat about not arguing over the quality of our judiciary, can someone please advise if we are now officially muzzled on cop posts ??
Mike H
- Status