Witnessed a shooting, Froze in place
- Thread starter tplumeri
- Start date
David, I let you slide on another thread as you seemed more knowledgable, however I have personally never missed a "First 48", and can tell you that barring a .50 Desert Eagle, a Glock 30, and a few rifles, every murder on that show is a .380, a .25, or a .22. Do you watch the show? I am right on this pal.
Mannlicher
New member
Fact is, that these things usually happen in an instant. The attacker knows what will happen, you don't have a clue until it does. Maybe, just maybe, you will have a second or two to react.
All those guys worring about lawyers and juries, about law suits and consequences, wind up dead. The folks that practice, have their mind set in place, and have trained themselves to react, survive.
All those guys worring about lawyers and juries, about law suits and consequences, wind up dead. The folks that practice, have their mind set in place, and have trained themselves to react, survive.
David Armstrong
Moderator
No problem. I probably could have worded that better.
TP,
I think you're being too hard on yourself.
Because you just had a root canal, I'll take a selfish & cynical view of circumstances here. You see the beginnings of an altercation when you're (most likely) in no mood to do anything but relax after the anticipation of the dreaded root canal (even if it's painless, it's uncomfortable). As the driver runs back towards the horn honker, the high-speed processor in your brain expressed some concept like "oh, that damn fool!" or "he's gonna yell at the jerk with the horn." Your expectation was that it was about to become a screaming match was based on personal experience and opinion.
When Driver #1 starts beating on horn-honking driver #2, your logical processor starts looking for a plausible reason and/or is trying to determine "which of these two turkeys is in the wrong here?" Emotionally, your internal thoughts are "I just wanna go home, don't make me get involved in your stupidity, guys!"
So during the moment when you are attempting to evaluate right/wrong; attacker/victim; good-guy/bad-guy, Driver #2 defends himself. Contrary to your expectations you do not hear gunfire but only see Driver #1 go down to apparently unknown causes. Only when the driver steps out holding a gun does it dawn on you that a gun was employed. Since Driver #2 reacts calmly and does not threaten you and asks you to call 911, you quickly assess that he's the good-guy/victim and more law-abiding than driver #1.
Opinion:
1. You did nothing wrong.
2. There was probably nothing you could have done to change the outcome.
3. You were not directly threatened, thus no reason to draw.
4. You have just discovered that events are seldom clear-cut as to who the good & bad guys are or what the fight is all about.
5. Events can happen before we're finished making up our minds what is really happening or who the real aggressor is.
By the way, I do urge you to write down your observations before being called for a deposition or as a witness. Recall as many factual details as you can and try to get the sequence of events straight. Then critically examine anything where you make a presumption - such as that Driver #2 shot Driver #1 -- if you didn't hear a gunshot you don't know for sure. All you know is that Driver #2 exited his car holding a polymer-looking gun and later examination revealed Driver #1 had been shot. Likewise, unless you saw fists making contact or Driver #2 reacting to punches, all you can say is that it appeared to you as though driver #1 was punching driver #2.
Having it written down now and stored in your desk will allow you to refresh your memory when/if called as a witness. It also allows you to refrain from "filling in the gaps" with presumptions as time goes by.
I think you're being too hard on yourself.
Because you just had a root canal, I'll take a selfish & cynical view of circumstances here. You see the beginnings of an altercation when you're (most likely) in no mood to do anything but relax after the anticipation of the dreaded root canal (even if it's painless, it's uncomfortable). As the driver runs back towards the horn honker, the high-speed processor in your brain expressed some concept like "oh, that damn fool!" or "he's gonna yell at the jerk with the horn." Your expectation was that it was about to become a screaming match was based on personal experience and opinion.
When Driver #1 starts beating on horn-honking driver #2, your logical processor starts looking for a plausible reason and/or is trying to determine "which of these two turkeys is in the wrong here?" Emotionally, your internal thoughts are "I just wanna go home, don't make me get involved in your stupidity, guys!"
So during the moment when you are attempting to evaluate right/wrong; attacker/victim; good-guy/bad-guy, Driver #2 defends himself. Contrary to your expectations you do not hear gunfire but only see Driver #1 go down to apparently unknown causes. Only when the driver steps out holding a gun does it dawn on you that a gun was employed. Since Driver #2 reacts calmly and does not threaten you and asks you to call 911, you quickly assess that he's the good-guy/victim and more law-abiding than driver #1.
Opinion:
1. You did nothing wrong.
2. There was probably nothing you could have done to change the outcome.
3. You were not directly threatened, thus no reason to draw.
4. You have just discovered that events are seldom clear-cut as to who the good & bad guys are or what the fight is all about.
5. Events can happen before we're finished making up our minds what is really happening or who the real aggressor is.
By the way, I do urge you to write down your observations before being called for a deposition or as a witness. Recall as many factual details as you can and try to get the sequence of events straight. Then critically examine anything where you make a presumption - such as that Driver #2 shot Driver #1 -- if you didn't hear a gunshot you don't know for sure. All you know is that Driver #2 exited his car holding a polymer-looking gun and later examination revealed Driver #1 had been shot. Likewise, unless you saw fists making contact or Driver #2 reacting to punches, all you can say is that it appeared to you as though driver #1 was punching driver #2.
Having it written down now and stored in your desk will allow you to refresh your memory when/if called as a witness. It also allows you to refrain from "filling in the gaps" with presumptions as time goes by.
You did the right thing. He had the right to protect himself just as you do (In Utah at least you don't have to take a beating). To draw down on a victim who was protecting himself might have gotten you or him killed (an ugly situation either way). I know if I just took a beating and shot someone, then a nearby person draws down on me 
, I would have shot first and asked questions later.
, I would have shot first and asked questions later.Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Reading a police psychology book. One thing the author suggests for after action briefings is to tell the officer that they might have thought they froze but they were realistically evaluating the scene. Given the time distortions that occur, it seems after the fact that they froze for a long time but the tapes show this isn't true.
Completely normal its already been said but I'll throw it in there as well. we can all train to shoot well and work on shot placement and trigger control etc, but conditioning the mind and preparing it for things that like are a bit harder to do. The military does it through repetitive training trusting in your instinct to kick in and your body to take over and do what its been trained to do when your mind freezes up and it works well. Through out my combat deployments and in the fire service you can always tell who the boots are when stuff hits the fan. I'm sure next time your in a situation like that you'll be able to react much better having some experience now in your favor.
I had a situation a few years back where I was at a car lot and heard a car chase happening. I stepped up into rows fo cars and watched as the driver of the car being chased missed the turn and ended up pulling into our lot.
Right behind him was a police car that sped in and stopped. The man being chased stepped outside of his car and brought out a rifle and shot the front windshield out of the police car. At this point me and the coustomer hit the deck. The guy reloaded the officer got out of the car and the man shot the officer in the butt. I know this because he ran over to where we were. He had been hit just below the belt with what turned out be a 30-06 round.
That round bounced off his pelvis and ended up exiting just above his waist. He was not seriously hurt. The shooter walked and got down inbetween two cars and tried to shoot at us 5 or 6 times then he reloaded and tried to shoot the other officers who were on the lot trying to nail him. He reloaded two more times and finally ran out of ammo. This guy then just calmly got up and started walking where he was shot four times and killed..
I don't know how you prepare for such things. At the time I was not packing. I do now at almost all times. I have either my Kel-Tec 32 or something else.
Right behind him was a police car that sped in and stopped. The man being chased stepped outside of his car and brought out a rifle and shot the front windshield out of the police car. At this point me and the coustomer hit the deck. The guy reloaded the officer got out of the car and the man shot the officer in the butt. I know this because he ran over to where we were. He had been hit just below the belt with what turned out be a 30-06 round.
That round bounced off his pelvis and ended up exiting just above his waist. He was not seriously hurt. The shooter walked and got down inbetween two cars and tried to shoot at us 5 or 6 times then he reloaded and tried to shoot the other officers who were on the lot trying to nail him. He reloaded two more times and finally ran out of ammo. This guy then just calmly got up and started walking where he was shot four times and killed..
I don't know how you prepare for such things. At the time I was not packing. I do now at almost all times. I have either my Kel-Tec 32 or something else.
Jinzoningen80
Inactive
The mind certainly is strange at times. I can remember years ago when 2 guys ALMOST got into a fight right beside me. They were only yelling and man-handling eachother but I froze. There was no hostility towards me but my heart was racing and I couldn't even move.
Then I go to Iraq and find that nothing bothers me. Bullets whiz by me on a daily basis and never once bothered me to the point where i froze. It wasn't that i was mentally absent and just reacting either. I would joke with my buddies and was actually enjoying the excitement of returning fire.
Now I'm back in the states and the other day i witnessed 2 guys ALMOST get into a fight again. It was the same reaction as before. I didn't really freeze but my heart was pounding and I started to sweat. WTH!? There was no threat to me and no weapons or anything in sight but my body was telling me to be terrified. I just hope that if the time should ever come where i have do defend myself or my family, I'll do the right thing.
I think part of the problem is that society has everyone so scared of being sued that violence is unthinkable. Even school-yard fistfights are taboo these days. If i should ever have to use my gun in defense, will i react like i did in iraq, or will i freeze and think that this guy's family may sue me if i kill him?
Then I go to Iraq and find that nothing bothers me. Bullets whiz by me on a daily basis and never once bothered me to the point where i froze. It wasn't that i was mentally absent and just reacting either. I would joke with my buddies and was actually enjoying the excitement of returning fire.
Now I'm back in the states and the other day i witnessed 2 guys ALMOST get into a fight again. It was the same reaction as before. I didn't really freeze but my heart was pounding and I started to sweat. WTH!? There was no threat to me and no weapons or anything in sight but my body was telling me to be terrified. I just hope that if the time should ever come where i have do defend myself or my family, I'll do the right thing.
I think part of the problem is that society has everyone so scared of being sued that violence is unthinkable. Even school-yard fistfights are taboo these days. If i should ever have to use my gun in defense, will i react like i did in iraq, or will i freeze and think that this guy's family may sue me if i kill him?
Tplumeri, I have to put in a vote for you-did-the-right-thing-all-around.
No intervention was required on your part. You approached close enough to see what happened, but were at a safe distance.
I think deep down instinct told you that nothing was required except to watch and wait, and you did just that. You were basically a good witness, which was all that was/is required from you in the situation.
No intervention was required on your part. You approached close enough to see what happened, but were at a safe distance.
I think deep down instinct told you that nothing was required except to watch and wait, and you did just that. You were basically a good witness, which was all that was/is required from you in the situation.
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Tplumeri,
This is an interesting thread you’ve started. I recall reading that in WWII it was found a very large percentage of soldiers never fired a shot their first time in combat, but had no problem the next time. It’s like they needed to sleep on it and make the mental adjustment. I had the same thing happen the first time I had to climb a radio tower. I had to turn back after only making it up half way. My legs just would not take the next step. Then I slept on it, and the next day had no problem going up all the way (415 feet, in that instance). It never bothered me again. My point is, any situational freeze wouldn’t likely happen the same way twice.
I can recommend viewing the late Jeff Cooper’s mindset lecture. It is available on tape, and I expect Gunsite’s website store will have a copy. I had the privilege of hearing him give it in person in the 250 class at Gunsite years ago. Everyone in attendance agreed it was a real high point in the class. The Colonel remarked that people have a great tendency to disbelieve or otherwise go into denial about what they are seeing if it is unfamiliar, odd, out of place, or too extreme for their normal world experience. The more outside normality it is, the less likely one is to believe it is really happening. He gave us the example of one of his South American clients who’d had this disbelief experience. As I recall, there was a party of some kind and the client went into a backroom to get more drink from a cooler. When he entered the room he encountered a “revolutionary” with a sub-machinegun who had got in through a door that lead to the outside from the room. That armed person was out of place, so the client went into denial about what he was seeing. The militant pointed the gun at him and pulled the trigger, but by a stroke of great luck, the gun just went “click”. The client’s response to this was to ask the militant if he wanted a drink? The militant tried to cycle the gun manually, and I can’t recall if he tried to fire it again? If he did, it was still broken. At any rate, frustrated by his inability to carry out his objective, the militant then turned and ran off. The client didn’t get clear on what had just happened until afterward.
In another example, an acquaintance of mine had been in a house when it was subjected to home invasion. The BG’s just knocked on the door, and when she answered these masked men came in and bound them and robbed the place. She said that even after they’d been tied up, she was still convinced it was just her brother and a bunch of his friends playing a joke. That was the only explanation her mind could come up with to explain the events she was experiencing.
So, Cooper’s admonition was, believe what you are seeing. If you can’t clearly understand what you are seeing, as happened to you, the disbelief problem is greatly exacerbated. It is completely understandable that you would default to standby mode while awaiting the arrival of information that clarified the matter. However, this is a potentially unhealthy condition should weapons come into play. One way to address this would be to change what you are seeing. Literally. That is, if no potential target can be d
identified as such, get your head unstuck by doing a quick scan of the surroundings for other threats. That helps provide context and return your sense of actively functioning.
Colonel Cooper also devised a color system for keeping your perception clear, identifying potential targets and making the shoot/no-shoot decision. Any tape of the lecture on mindset will include that.
One last thing, I would echo what was said earlier about not underestimating the effects of anesthetics. If you look up side effects to Novocaine, because it is a mix that contains epinephrine (adrenaline) it can induce fight or flight response as well as tremors and accelerated heart rate if it gets into your blood stream too quickly (or if you are hypersensitive to it). Tremors are already a kind of nerve indecision about what the muscles fibers should do? I see no reason the brain shouldn’t experience similarly tentative electrical signals under its influence? Given a synthetically-induced bias to fight or flight response, then add in a situation that demands fight or flight response and it is easy to see how it could promote an exaggerated response that included a freeze-up while your brain tried to sort out which response the situation actually called for?
This is an interesting thread you’ve started. I recall reading that in WWII it was found a very large percentage of soldiers never fired a shot their first time in combat, but had no problem the next time. It’s like they needed to sleep on it and make the mental adjustment. I had the same thing happen the first time I had to climb a radio tower. I had to turn back after only making it up half way. My legs just would not take the next step. Then I slept on it, and the next day had no problem going up all the way (415 feet, in that instance). It never bothered me again. My point is, any situational freeze wouldn’t likely happen the same way twice.
I can recommend viewing the late Jeff Cooper’s mindset lecture. It is available on tape, and I expect Gunsite’s website store will have a copy. I had the privilege of hearing him give it in person in the 250 class at Gunsite years ago. Everyone in attendance agreed it was a real high point in the class. The Colonel remarked that people have a great tendency to disbelieve or otherwise go into denial about what they are seeing if it is unfamiliar, odd, out of place, or too extreme for their normal world experience. The more outside normality it is, the less likely one is to believe it is really happening. He gave us the example of one of his South American clients who’d had this disbelief experience. As I recall, there was a party of some kind and the client went into a backroom to get more drink from a cooler. When he entered the room he encountered a “revolutionary” with a sub-machinegun who had got in through a door that lead to the outside from the room. That armed person was out of place, so the client went into denial about what he was seeing. The militant pointed the gun at him and pulled the trigger, but by a stroke of great luck, the gun just went “click”. The client’s response to this was to ask the militant if he wanted a drink? The militant tried to cycle the gun manually, and I can’t recall if he tried to fire it again? If he did, it was still broken. At any rate, frustrated by his inability to carry out his objective, the militant then turned and ran off. The client didn’t get clear on what had just happened until afterward.
In another example, an acquaintance of mine had been in a house when it was subjected to home invasion. The BG’s just knocked on the door, and when she answered these masked men came in and bound them and robbed the place. She said that even after they’d been tied up, she was still convinced it was just her brother and a bunch of his friends playing a joke. That was the only explanation her mind could come up with to explain the events she was experiencing.
So, Cooper’s admonition was, believe what you are seeing. If you can’t clearly understand what you are seeing, as happened to you, the disbelief problem is greatly exacerbated. It is completely understandable that you would default to standby mode while awaiting the arrival of information that clarified the matter. However, this is a potentially unhealthy condition should weapons come into play. One way to address this would be to change what you are seeing. Literally. That is, if no potential target can be d
identified as such, get your head unstuck by doing a quick scan of the surroundings for other threats. That helps provide context and return your sense of actively functioning.
Colonel Cooper also devised a color system for keeping your perception clear, identifying potential targets and making the shoot/no-shoot decision. Any tape of the lecture on mindset will include that.
One last thing, I would echo what was said earlier about not underestimating the effects of anesthetics. If you look up side effects to Novocaine, because it is a mix that contains epinephrine (adrenaline) it can induce fight or flight response as well as tremors and accelerated heart rate if it gets into your blood stream too quickly (or if you are hypersensitive to it). Tremors are already a kind of nerve indecision about what the muscles fibers should do? I see no reason the brain shouldn’t experience similarly tentative electrical signals under its influence? Given a synthetically-induced bias to fight or flight response, then add in a situation that demands fight or flight response and it is easy to see how it could promote an exaggerated response that included a freeze-up while your brain tried to sort out which response the situation actually called for?
Benonymous
New member
Freezing
Interesting thread. I was involved in a situation many years ago when I "froze". I was travelling to work with one of my house mates who worked with me. We had to negotiate an old single-lane bridge on the trip. There was a Southbound and Northbound lane but on each approach, two lanes merged. Travelling South I had this dump truck racing me to the merge. The guy was driving way too fast for the conditions. I had the inside lane and got ahead of him and that's the way we merged. Unfortunately my friend decided to flip the bird to the truckie. What a dumbass. As the traffic slowed for a set of lights, this truck was right on my hammer. When we stopped, the guy leapt out of the truck, flung my door open and launched himself over me to grab my friend. He proceeded to give him a violent shaking. y friend was small and he was big and heavily muscled. The whole thing was over in seconds. My friend avoided getting punched, probably due to the fact there was no swinging room and the guys position. When I told my Dad about it he said "well why didn't you belt the guy?" I couldn't/didn't because I was frozen to the seat! DOn't worry, as other posters have pointed out. You are rarely "prepared" for reality when it hits you. Only a lot of H to H training could have prepared me I think.
Interesting thread. I was involved in a situation many years ago when I "froze". I was travelling to work with one of my house mates who worked with me. We had to negotiate an old single-lane bridge on the trip. There was a Southbound and Northbound lane but on each approach, two lanes merged. Travelling South I had this dump truck racing me to the merge. The guy was driving way too fast for the conditions. I had the inside lane and got ahead of him and that's the way we merged. Unfortunately my friend decided to flip the bird to the truckie. What a dumbass. As the traffic slowed for a set of lights, this truck was right on my hammer. When we stopped, the guy leapt out of the truck, flung my door open and launched himself over me to grab my friend. He proceeded to give him a violent shaking. y friend was small and he was big and heavily muscled. The whole thing was over in seconds. My friend avoided getting punched, probably due to the fact there was no swinging room and the guys position. When I told my Dad about it he said "well why didn't you belt the guy?" I couldn't/didn't because I was frozen to the seat! DOn't worry, as other posters have pointed out. You are rarely "prepared" for reality when it hits you. Only a lot of H to H training could have prepared me I think.
Freeze
I'm glad I read this subject. I was in a situation where a black bear charged my wife in a National Park. The bear was 40 or so yards away from her and I was 20 or so. Bear and I were both running toward my wife - he won. But at the last few feet veered aside (false charge?). I was unarmed and after it was all over (which was in a heart beat but it seemed much longer). I was kinda upset with my mental process, as I was "blank". No fear, no anger, no plan, nothing. Bear is charging her and I'm charging toward them. I had no weapon and didn't think of picking up a rock, or a stick or anything. I don't know what I would have done if the bear had tried to really eat her. I hope I would have thought of an available weapon ie rock or log or something if it came down to actual blows. I know this, if I'd had my normal carry weapon, I'd be in jail as I would have surely tried to kill that bear. I have posted this story before elsewhere and a lot of internet commandos were pretty condescending about the mental process. I no longer am too harsh about peoples actions under real stress. It's different than they (or I thought) and most have not been there.
I'm glad I read this subject. I was in a situation where a black bear charged my wife in a National Park. The bear was 40 or so yards away from her and I was 20 or so. Bear and I were both running toward my wife - he won. But at the last few feet veered aside (false charge?). I was unarmed and after it was all over (which was in a heart beat but it seemed much longer). I was kinda upset with my mental process, as I was "blank". No fear, no anger, no plan, nothing. Bear is charging her and I'm charging toward them. I had no weapon and didn't think of picking up a rock, or a stick or anything. I don't know what I would have done if the bear had tried to really eat her. I hope I would have thought of an available weapon ie rock or log or something if it came down to actual blows. I know this, if I'd had my normal carry weapon, I'd be in jail as I would have surely tried to kill that bear. I have posted this story before elsewhere and a lot of internet commandos were pretty condescending about the mental process. I no longer am too harsh about peoples actions under real stress. It's different than they (or I thought) and most have not been there.
Spade Cooley
Moderator
In my opinion the situation was where two fools met. Not doing anything with your pistol was the correct action. They best thing you could do would be to take cover and get vehicle/suspects descriptions, It the situation should escalate and one of them should start shooting at others, then do your duty as a good citizen. You had no idea what was going on during that fight and could have shot the wrong person or been shot yourself. No doubt that guy inside the car could have taken you for a bad guy with a gun, a possible friend of the guy he just shot, and unload on you.