Witnessed a shooting, Froze in place

T

tplumeri

Moderator
This is so fouled up. need some feedback.
Was comming out of the dentists office after a root canal.
A car horn starts beeping on the sidestreet next to the dentists lot. I'm walking that way to my car and the the car horn gets longer and more frequent.
as i get to my car i see a car trying to parallel park on the side street and the car he's backing up to with the driver very animated about blowing the horn.
the cars never make contact as far as i could see, but the driver backing up stops his car, gets out, runs to the other vehicle and proceeds to punch the crap out of the the other guy (still seated in the stationary vehicle!)

by now im froze in my tracks next to my car, 30 ft away.
all of a sudden the attacker stands straight up and then falls back away from the vehicle. i didnt hear the shot. the "driver" of the parked vehicle steps out holding a poly semi auto (all i saw was a black handgun, later identified as a glock 22).
the driver looks at the victim, then at me and asks me to call 911.
he never raised the gun towards me, and although very stressed, i never felt the need to seek cover and draw my gun.
but there was that 1 or 2 seconds (felt like a minute) that i was absolutely frozen.
lucky this time i guess. the shooter could have easily shot me as well. might have if i went for my gun. i wont draw unless threatened but
how can you avoid the freeze and its potentially deadly outcome?
tom
 
Interesting--vaguely reminiscent of the first TX CHL shooting. The CHL holder was eventually acquitted, due to the following circumstances:

1. The beating left him permanently injured.
2. There was no way for him to escape (no Castle Doctrine at that time).
3. The CHL holder was very small, the attacker was very large and had a "Born to Kill" tattoo on his upper arm. Appearances are important, folks.
4. The CHL holder did NOT talk at the scene and hired a good lawyer.
...the shooter could have easily shot me as well.
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It doesn't sound like you were in any danger. However, that would not have been a good time for you to rush over and start beating the man with the gun. ;)

Hope you have contacted or been contacted by the police. As a witness to a shooting, you have important information that the authorities will need.
 
What you experienced was reality. All the scenarios and what you would do go out the window when reality sets in. :eek:
 
yeah, i know the thing about reality (what a concept)
but the what ifs and what should's and why didnt i questions continue to haunt.
I was standing 30 ft away with 10 rounds in my pcket. problem is, i couldnt think straight to defend myself if need be. ive carried for ten yrs and
ive fired a gun in anger and self defense before. but ive never froze like this.
are ther advanced hands on training available to address this ?
this is really screwing me up
tom
 
Welcome to the basement lobby of the OODA loop. When we witness something so 'beyond normal' right in front of us, it is human nature to stand still while you absorb and process information. Unfortunately, 'standing there' will also get you killed. There's also the natural urge to deny that it's "really happening", and right in your lap. Alertness and conditioned responses are the best solutions to these problems.

What you experienced was normal. It's even more understandable given the fact that there were no indications that a gun was involved, until it was all over from your perspective. Luckily, you weren't in much danger and you got out fine. Learn from it. It was a cheap lesson in how quick things can go to hell in a handbasket.

PS- expect to get subpoenaed and spend some time in depositions and/or court.
 
haha whats up with shootings around dental offices? This is the second or third story I've heard that was near a dental office.

I'm going to dental school, maybe I should keep some AK's in my office :)


So what happened? Did the guy live? Die? any news?
 
it's tough

bad day man. you say you have shot in anger and self defense. So i assume this is not your first shooting Experience? If it is not and this is the first time you have frozen you might consider counseling. Sometimes when people are in combat situations, many times without negative reactions it all piles up and the person cannot handle(shellshock stuff) there are many therapeutic ways to deal with this. However if this is your first shooting experience, it is very normal for you to react this way. As you survive more situations like this you will find your mind accepting this as the reality that the world is, and unfortunately you will begin to get used to it.
 
Just by reading your description, looks like you witnessed a SD scenerio, albeit instigated by the guy honking his horn.

Wow.
 
GalilARM


haha whats up with shootings around dental offices? This is the second or third story I've heard that was near a dental office.

I'm going to dental school, maybe I should keep some AK's in my office
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People get cranky as hell when that Novocaine wears off, or maybe they just got the bill on the way out? ;)
 
YEs, expect to get subpeona'd and go to court. What you witnessed is a shock to the system and you reacted like a good percentage of people would have.
The first time I was involved in a shooting, I did not freeze but I also had a partner yelling at me keeping me focused and a crazy drug dealer trying to get us first. You'll have a lot of emotions probably just because it is a traumatic event. Don't worry, the second time, if there is a second time, you'll probably not freeze. :eek:
 
but ive never froze like this.
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Perhaps you did not freeze

You said yourself that you did not feel threatened

Is it at all possible that you merely experienced time compression and the 1 to 2 seconds you think it took you to react really was about 1/10 of a second
And that you properly evaluated the threat level
 
look out

That’s right03Shadowbob from now on you will find it a lot more natural to react effectively, just be careful that you don’t react too easily, and kill somebody on a bad hunch.
 
all of a sudden the attacker stands straight up and then falls back away from the vehicle. i didnt hear the shot. the "driver" of the parked vehicle steps out holding a poly semi auto (all i saw was a black handgun, later identified as a glock 22).
Click to expand...


Why would you draw your gun & fire upon this guy? It seems he was defending himself against a violent attack by the guy who came swinging punches. You were worried he was going to start shooting at you?

SHEESH...

So, if you ever have to defend yourself from someone attacking you, you would expect onlookers who witnessed the attack to suddenly be affraid of you, want to shoot at you and just freeze at the site of you?

OUCH...

All the guy was doing was honking his horn... That is neither violent nor assault. The man who decided to get personal and get violent decided to take it to the next level. If horns are a cause to be attacked, then they should be taken out of cars. There is no law against using a horn in a moment of frustration. There are laws against attacking someone physically because they are getting on your nerves.
 
I had an episode similar -Though no shooting was involved it could have been - and against me. Very late at night screams on our street brought neighbors out; we saw a very drunk/doped up man and woman alternately screaming at the other, moving towards them, then backing off. Woman finally walked quickly up the street and seemed done. Guy flew after her appearing he was going to kill her or gravely injure her. I wandered stupidly away from neighbors and began a 911 call. Immediately, BG made bee-line towards me swearing at me for my calling cops. 911 operator heard him, asked if that was him; when i said it was she promised police were on the way and asked if anyone needed ambulance. My reply was cool: "If they don't get here quick I will". Yes, the whole time I felt completely calm, not spaced out, I didn't retreat a step though BG was but 6' away, nor did i move towards him. Just eyed him while talking to 911. I had no weapon, (before my permit), no nothing to help. I blamed myself for awhile after for not running, but my calm and "Clint "Eastwood"-like demeanor might have given the guy pause - or perhaps he thought I was a cop. Whatever, he began to move away as I finished the 911 call, then the sirens, and then he split real quick. So, the calm reaction to all this was a big surprise. A fluke perhaps. But anyway, who knows, maybe it saved me and the woman he chased from some dire attack.
 
Maybe I don't entirely understand the circumstances, but I am looking for some evidence that you acted improperly or "frozen" during the incident, and can't find any. I don't see any necessary indications that you should have drawn your weapon and started waving it around? If that is what you mean by "frozen", then good for you! It means that you rightly waited for the Observation and Orientation part of the loop. Anyone who draws before OO has proven there is a deadly threat is going to be in big trouble. So let's say that you break through your "freeze"--you draw in this situation, even though there is no deadly danger to you, against a guy who is already probably experiencing the adrenaline dump and has his gun out already...and who may be the good guy. That sounds like a recipe for disaster. Your reactions here sound like you did exactly what you should have.
 
I think you did what most would do. (especially me) I know that it would take me a second or two to figure out what happened without hearing the gunshot and not having a clear line of sight. My first impression would be that the victim got in a lucky punch in on the attacker. I've never been in your position fortunately. The closest I've been to that is when I saw the second aircraft hit the WTC on TV. It took me at least 3 seconds to process the info that we were under attack. The more horrific the situation, the longer it takes to process. IMO. Another good example is the opening scene in Saving Private Ryan. It was pretty realistic how Hank's cognitive skills were slowed down during the horror of combat.
 
TP, you sound like you're being pretty hard on yourself. I suppose that you could have taken cover when you saw the gun being drawn, but I'm sure that it happened really fast. And that's how that kind of stuff happens. You don't expect something like that, and then it happens in the blink of an eye.

It sounds like it really is bothering you, so you might want to take a training course from a firearm instructor -- it might help set your mind at ease. Anyway, I'm glad you came out of it O.K.
 
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