Winchester Silvertip HP

I've never done any ballistics testing of that round, nor have I used a .357/.38 beyond shooting a friend's a few times. I do know that my brother-in-law's department issues 155 gr silvertips in .40SW. They independently tested several and arrived at the conclusion that those do the most damage with the least potential for overpenetration. I don't know what their testing methods were or anything more detailed than that, just thought I'd pass it along.
 
They are the bullet of choice for my 9mm. They make a 9mm a real gun for personal protection. Expansion, if you can believe expansion with a 9mm, is reliable and impressive. Another good bullet is the Remington Golden Sabre for personal protection or hunting.
 
I have some of the 140 gr. STHP for my 357. Keep some in speed loaders. I find they are pretty accurate, use a low flash powder, and are not perhaps as punishing as the really hot 125's to the gun. And less recoil than 158's by some amount. I am sure any magnum at that weight would have sufficient penetration but I don't have numbers. My 66 has the sight adjusted for them. Not that I don't have other choices in factory ammo here, I just keep these in front of the line. Now in my Marlin carbine, I do like the heavier bullets as you get alot of wallop from the extra weight and long barrel. And recoil isn't an issue in that.
 
I have always like the STHP. Never felt undergunned with them.

While it's true that they won't penetrate completely through 4 or 5 people, their penetration is more than adequate for any normal person.
 
Here is a link to The Firearms Tactical Institute .38 Special Ammunition Performance Data which lists the 6/21/91 FBI Ammunition Tests Data performance for the 38 Special 110 grain Super-X Silvertip JHP :

Test Gun Barrel Length 4" : S&W M19

Velocity : 1089 fps

Penetration : Bare Gelatin- 10.70"
Clothed Gelatin- 10.55"

Expansion : Bare Gelatin- 0.56"
Clothed Gelatin- 0.58"

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/38special.htm

- Regards
 
Wasn't it Silvertip HP's that were blamed for insufficient penetration in the Miami Shootout? Those test results that were just posted are several inches less penetration than the revised FBI tests specify.

I don't use the Silvertips in 9mm because I know they _used_ to expand too much and too fast which led to shallow penetration. I know they "improved" them but I still never see them listed as a premium bullet that can pass the FBI penetration tests.

The other Silvertip I played around with was in .44 Special. Very accurate load but just too darn mild. I felt like I could have thrown the bullets as fast as they came out! It felt like the old .38 Special 158 grain round-nosed lead bullet. I moved on to something else.

So yes, they expand. Whether they are good enough to compete with Golden Sabers or Gold Dots or Rangers or Hydra Shok's is going to be up to you. I personally want to have the kind of performance the FBI tests were designed to create.

Gregg
 
Wasn't it Silvertip HP's that were blamed for insufficient penetration in the Miami Shootout?
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That is correct. However, when the FBI was carrying the Silvertip they were all about rapid expansion/limited penetration. At that time they were pushing RII and the computer man model. We carried the 9mm 115 ST for a very brief time in 1980. Within a couple of months of carrying it a couple of our guys got in a shootout near Joliet IL with a DC Eagle biker. They hit the guy 13 time COM but none of the rds penetrated deep enough to reach vitals after going thru a leather vest and leather jacket. The guy died at the scene but it wasn't from any of the rds. His lifestyle caused him to have plugged arteries and he died of a heart attack most likely due to the stress of being shot at. When it was seen how limited the penetration was we immediately pulled the ST from the street and eventually went with Federal 115 BP and then BPLE. When the FBI decided they were going to 9mm and carry the ST our range guys took the results of the Joliet shooting and tried explaining to them that the ST results weren't all that impressive given the covered subject. The FBI said their tests and RII proved that the ST was the perfect street rd in that it expanded quickly and since it had limited penetration there was less worry about going thru someone. So our guys packed their bags and came home. Then a few years later they found out what we had seen with the ST. Unfortunately it cost them dearly to find that out.
 
The Silvertips were the victim of the FBI mentality that the most imortant thing in life is to protect the reputation of the bureau.

Negligence in supervision, negligence in training, and poor policy caused the problem at Miami, not the ammo. But the bureau HAD TO HAVE A SCAPEGOAT. so they blamed the ammo.
 
Silvertips are slightly underloaded and usually quite accurate. There are better choices, there are worse choices.
Denis
 
The Silvertips were the victim of the FBI mentality that the most imortant thing in life is to protect the reputation of the bureau.

Negligence in supervision, negligence in training, and poor policy caused the problem at Miami, not the ammo. But the bureau HAD TO HAVE A SCAPEGOAT. so they blamed the ammo.
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No truer words have ever been said. The FBI test are based on several false premises. First and foremost, it is based on the assumption that the agents were capable of effectively dealing with the two men in the Miami shootout to begin with (they weren't). Secondly, it is based on the assumption that the few rounds that didn't penetrate sufficiently would have ended the fight if they had (that can't be proven). One of the men was shot in the head and was still not completely incapacitated, I call that an extreme case of bad luck. Thirdly, it's based on the assumption that those are the only rounds that could have made a difference. How many of the agent's rounds missed? Perhaps if they'd hit the offenders with all of those 9mm, .38Spl and 12ga rounds the outcome would have been different. The Winchester Silvertip did exactly what it was designed to do, which was conincidentaly what the FBI said they wanted at the time. I think the blame for what happened in Miami lies more with the FBI itself than the caliber or load of their handguns.
 
I've never done any balistic tests, but I can tell you if I need something to feed the .38 or the .357, Silvertips would be the first things I'd grab for. Somewhat expensive, but in my experience, 100% reliable.
 
Unless there is a reason for you to use the standard pressure 110gr .38 Special ammo (such as an older firearm not rated for +P), I'd be more likely to select the 125gr .38 Special +P version (X38S8HP).

You'll actually get 30 ft-lbs more energy from Winchester's 158gr +P LSWC-HP round (X38SPD).
 
BillCA:

There is a reason why I am limited to the 110gr silvertips. It's because it's the only SD .38 revolver ammo that the local gun dealer stocks. I live in Asia and gun control here makes Cali look like texas. In addition to the silvertips, the only other SD ammo available are 125gr and 158gr +P SJSPs. As a matter of fact, the silvertips are rather expensive and some folks even use 148gr wadcutters or +P 158gr LRN for self preservation.
 
I have the ST for my .44. I shoot a few every time I go to the range. Yeah they are mild.......compared to a .44 magnum. However they are also a heavy bullets for a SD round, 200 grains. So even if they aren't flying down range with their hair on fire....I'm sure they will do their job.
 
ISP- Though I am not a huge 9mm fan, I know that your Agency is responsible for the 9mm of today.
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It served us well for us for 32+ yrs, even more so with development of better ammo the last 20 yrs starting with Fed 115 BP and then continuing.
 
winchester 158gr.+p waddcutter HP for snubby

I posted feedback for the S&W 638.I probley will buy this for a ankle gun.I carry a 9mm compact on my side for cold clothing days.I used to carry 110gr.hydra shoc in my S&W model 36 snubby.I later found out this was wrong.So I'm gonna use the 158gr. +P.Speak up if you think this is not a good SD round for 38 spc. snub.
 
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