Winchester Rifles
- Thread starter TheBear
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''"The reality is that product made in the USA is expensive, and from what I can tell consumers expect premium product at bargain prices. Ain't gonna happen."" copied from post #17
Yes but when everything went to 'cheap labor countries' the price never dropped..
I used to buy about three pair of Mason Shoes made in the late 80s and early 90s in WISCONSIN and they had a "Made in USA" label in them-at that time they were about $90 for my work shoe. Then CHINA and now there are some parts(liner) that is paper and they cost over $100.. Where did all the 'savings' go??
Yes but when everything went to 'cheap labor countries' the price never dropped..
I used to buy about three pair of Mason Shoes made in the late 80s and early 90s in WISCONSIN and they had a "Made in USA" label in them-at that time they were about $90 for my work shoe. Then CHINA and now there are some parts(liner) that is paper and they cost over $100.. Where did all the 'savings' go??
TX,
I understand Keg isn't interested in a foreign Winchester.
I'm just pointing out, for those who can't get past the Made In Japan, that the quality's better than recent domestic Winchester levergun products.
Anybody been shooting the little Browning .22 levergun? Great little gun, guess where it's been made for many years?
I note that many of us don't seem to mind owning a Belgian Hi-Power, an Italian Peacemaker copy, a German H&K pistol, an Austrian Glock, a Phillipino 1911 copy, a Brazilian Model 92 levergun, an Italian Model 92 copy, an Italian Model 73 levergun copy, and/or a number of fine foreign-made high-grade shotguns, but the idea of a Japanese Winchester levergun just can't be tolerated.
Yeah, I wish the Winchester leverguns were still US-made, but times change.
Personally, I'm waiting for a current Japanese '92 that should be here this week, and Winchester hasn't even made those domestically since WWII.
I've worked with other Mirokus, as I said. This one I intend to keep. Don't like the safety or rebounding hammer, but I can adjust.
I grew up in an era where Made In Japan meant Busted In Two Weeks. I've since managed to overcome that bias.
Not trying to induce Keg to buy one, just pointing out to people who won't buy a current Miroku because it "ain't made here" that the guns are high quality regardless of where they're made.
Or- actually because of it. I've tried the Brazilians & the Italians, good stuff for the most part, but can't hold a candle in overall quality to the Japanese guns. Those people at Miroku take the things very seriously & build more to quality than to a certain price level.
Denis
I understand Keg isn't interested in a foreign Winchester.
I'm just pointing out, for those who can't get past the Made In Japan, that the quality's better than recent domestic Winchester levergun products.
Anybody been shooting the little Browning .22 levergun? Great little gun, guess where it's been made for many years?
I note that many of us don't seem to mind owning a Belgian Hi-Power, an Italian Peacemaker copy, a German H&K pistol, an Austrian Glock, a Phillipino 1911 copy, a Brazilian Model 92 levergun, an Italian Model 92 copy, an Italian Model 73 levergun copy, and/or a number of fine foreign-made high-grade shotguns, but the idea of a Japanese Winchester levergun just can't be tolerated.
Yeah, I wish the Winchester leverguns were still US-made, but times change.
Personally, I'm waiting for a current Japanese '92 that should be here this week, and Winchester hasn't even made those domestically since WWII.
I've worked with other Mirokus, as I said. This one I intend to keep. Don't like the safety or rebounding hammer, but I can adjust.
I grew up in an era where Made In Japan meant Busted In Two Weeks. I've since managed to overcome that bias.
Not trying to induce Keg to buy one, just pointing out to people who won't buy a current Miroku because it "ain't made here" that the guns are high quality regardless of where they're made.
Or- actually because of it. I've tried the Brazilians & the Italians, good stuff for the most part, but can't hold a candle in overall quality to the Japanese guns. Those people at Miroku take the things very seriously & build more to quality than to a certain price level.
Denis
TX,
I've got two German Walthers. I've carried a German SIG in uniform.
I have an Italian '66, an Italian Mare's Leg '92. Two Italian Beretta pistols.
I've owned & regretted selling a Japanese '86.
All three countries at one time or another have been considered enemies of this country.
I've also got a Chinese SKS I'm quite fond of.
And a Russian coachgun.
We're not exactly on good terms with those countries, either.
Do I like seeing American jobs leave our shores? Nope.
But, I'm not going to short myself in avoiding a product from any of those countries that may meet my personal needs just because of that.
Build me a comparable-quality version of any of those guns listed above here in this country that I can AFFORD, and I'll buy one of each.
Until then, I'll go where I need to go to get what I need to have.
And thanks, I do plan to enjoy my new Japanese Winchester.
Denis
I've got two German Walthers. I've carried a German SIG in uniform.
I have an Italian '66, an Italian Mare's Leg '92. Two Italian Beretta pistols.
I've owned & regretted selling a Japanese '86.
All three countries at one time or another have been considered enemies of this country.
I've also got a Chinese SKS I'm quite fond of.
And a Russian coachgun.
We're not exactly on good terms with those countries, either.
Do I like seeing American jobs leave our shores? Nope.
But, I'm not going to short myself in avoiding a product from any of those countries that may meet my personal needs just because of that.
Build me a comparable-quality version of any of those guns listed above here in this country that I can AFFORD, and I'll buy one of each.
Until then, I'll go where I need to go to get what I need to have.
And thanks, I do plan to enjoy my new Japanese Winchester.
Denis
DPris,
I bet My Ruger Frontier was about the same price as a Japanese Winchester, and its a quality American Made Firearm, Mounted a Leupold Scope on it to make it even more American, Ive got one of those Crappy Union Made Olin Winchester 94s thats way more accurate than I am. Plus my Mossberg 835 Ulit Mag, Took alot of game with that critter.
My Stainless Steel Ruger Single Six Revolver is Sweet, and I felt better buying it because some American Crafstman got to buy his kids some food to eat. Recently bought a Henry .22 and a leupold VX2 that I gave away as Christmas Presents, along with a Case Pocket Knife, and three Buck Knives that I knew to be the American Made ones, because I thought it was the right thing to do, being the Hollidays, and trying to buy some American Made gifts.
Ive got a few Foreighn Made Surplus Rifles though, and they shoot pretty good too, but not quite as good as my 1942 Remington 1903 A3, its in a league of its own.
Im just glad that you and I both like Guns, and are still free eneough to own them. Richard Nethery Great White American Hunter !!
I bet My Ruger Frontier was about the same price as a Japanese Winchester, and its a quality American Made Firearm, Mounted a Leupold Scope on it to make it even more American, Ive got one of those Crappy Union Made Olin Winchester 94s thats way more accurate than I am. Plus my Mossberg 835 Ulit Mag, Took alot of game with that critter.
My Stainless Steel Ruger Single Six Revolver is Sweet, and I felt better buying it because some American Crafstman got to buy his kids some food to eat. Recently bought a Henry .22 and a leupold VX2 that I gave away as Christmas Presents, along with a Case Pocket Knife, and three Buck Knives that I knew to be the American Made ones, because I thought it was the right thing to do, being the Hollidays, and trying to buy some American Made gifts.
Ive got a few Foreighn Made Surplus Rifles though, and they shoot pretty good too, but not quite as good as my 1942 Remington 1903 A3, its in a league of its own.
Im just glad that you and I both like Guns, and are still free eneough to own them. Richard Nethery Great White American Hunter !!
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TX,
Had the Frontier, with a Burris. Gave up on the Scout Concept.
A quick-handling levergun does better for my near uses, a traditional scoped boltgun does better for my far uses.
Got four Single-Sixes.
Got three Colt Model Ps, currently no Italian replicas.
Got two Ruger boltguns for particular uses. Also got a Howa-made Weatherby I like.
Got well over a hundred knives, many US, several made in Seki, Japan. Damned good knives come outa the US, same with Japan.
My .45-70s are all American-made, my Marlins all American-made.
20 or so Ruger handguns.
20 or so Smiths.
And so on.
I get what I need from whoever builds it best within a specific framework.
I ain't the company that decided to go off-shore, I ain't the one who complained so much about the prices of GOOD QUALITY US goods that companies felt forced to go off-shore to stay in the market.
And- 10-4 Rubber Duck, on your last sentence.
Denis
Had the Frontier, with a Burris. Gave up on the Scout Concept.
A quick-handling levergun does better for my near uses, a traditional scoped boltgun does better for my far uses.
Got four Single-Sixes.
Got three Colt Model Ps, currently no Italian replicas.
Got two Ruger boltguns for particular uses. Also got a Howa-made Weatherby I like.
Got well over a hundred knives, many US, several made in Seki, Japan. Damned good knives come outa the US, same with Japan.
My .45-70s are all American-made, my Marlins all American-made.
20 or so Ruger handguns.
20 or so Smiths.
And so on.
I get what I need from whoever builds it best within a specific framework.
I ain't the company that decided to go off-shore, I ain't the one who complained so much about the prices of GOOD QUALITY US goods that companies felt forced to go off-shore to stay in the market.
And- 10-4 Rubber Duck, on your last sentence.
Denis
Dpris..If you read your post again..you made a couple of comparisons....(the first few sentences and then the last)....I chose to compare the pre 64 94 to a Japanese made 94.... Also I have picked up and handled the Japanese made guns..just not the 94..... One was an 1886 light rifle replica.... To compare..it would have to be to a pre 64 gun..... But it all really boils down to it is not made in USA....That is a big part of what is wrong with our country today..... my 2 cents
Thank Goodness we are all using "MADE IN USA" lap-tops and desk tops to post in this thread....
One of the finest shotguns I have ever owned, was an older (late 60's, early 70's) Ithaka SKB O/U... made in Japan. The Old Winchester 101's of that same era... I think some of them were made in Japan as well as Belgium, and were very well made, at least the ones I examined. I am all for buying American, don't get me wrong, but Japan has produced TOP QUALITY , US designed firearms, to US specs, since the 60's for Winchester.
Ever see the fit and finish on an old SHADOW O/U shotgun, made in Japan in the early 70;s? Unreal...
One of the finest shotguns I have ever owned, was an older (late 60's, early 70's) Ithaka SKB O/U... made in Japan. The Old Winchester 101's of that same era... I think some of them were made in Japan as well as Belgium, and were very well made, at least the ones I examined. I am all for buying American, don't get me wrong, but Japan has produced TOP QUALITY , US designed firearms, to US specs, since the 60's for Winchester.
Ever see the fit and finish on an old SHADOW O/U shotgun, made in Japan in the early 70;s? Unreal...
TriumphGuy
New member
The difference is that you don't have a choice on that one. There's no such thing as a computer that's made in the US.
My rule is that I don't buy anything brand new if it's foreign made and there's an alternative that's made stateside. As for Winchesters, I've found that the best were made pre-64, but you can save some money buying the one's built shortly after using the old stock of parts. I have a 94 in 32ws that's a fantastic shooter, picked it up for $250 not long ago. The only trick is feeding it.
DPris
I've enjoyed this one for more than 40 years - a real joy - a little tricky to reassemble the ejector but a great shooter -
TriumphGuy
True - but, there's nothing like this made in US either - my wife gave it to me for our 25th anniversary 7 years ago - so I force myself to act like I love it -
Zeroed sights to POA at 25 yards and 2" above POA at 100 yards - with less than a box of ammo - shots under one MOA with fist rest on table -
This makes my wife happy so I do it -
I've enjoyed this one for more than 40 years - a real joy - a little tricky to reassemble the ejector but a great shooter -
TriumphGuy
True - but, there's nothing like this made in US either - my wife gave it to me for our 25th anniversary 7 years ago - so I force myself to act like I love it -
Zeroed sights to POA at 25 yards and 2" above POA at 100 yards - with less than a box of ammo - shots under one MOA with fist rest on table -
This makes my wife happy so I do it -
TriumphGuy
New member
OJ, you get a free pass because you have an airheads shirt on. At least that's what it looks like.
AS OJ said, they don't make many of the old designs in the U.S.A. anymore. If you want one of the old style rifles like OJ's 1895 Winchester (I have two myself, just not as pretty) or an 1873, 1866, etc... you have no other option but to buy a Japanese or Italian gun. Sure you could buy a 100+ year old original at two or three (or more) times the price of a new foreign made one, but if you want a gun that you can use as a working gun,(ranch gun, "truck" gun, saddle gun) a lot of the oldies just can't stand up to it on a daily basis. Also, if you should break something, finding parts would be an adventure to say the least. If those guns were made here, they would be unaffordable to most people. Look at the Colt revolvers. They run about $1200. The Italian copies go for less than half of that at around $450. They will never be a real Colt, but they look, feel, and shoot like one. The only U.S made copy of a Colt revolver that is produced, U.S. Firearms, sell for as much or more than a "genuine" Colt. Again, harder to come by for a lot of folks than $450. When you want a "colt" style revolver, or a 1873 or 1895 winchester, a Ruger or Mossberg won't cut it. If U.S. companies would/could offer these classic designs, that regular, "working" folks could afford, it would be great. Unfortunatly they do not. That is why people buy foreign made guns. You can say "I won't buy from Japan, because they attacked us at Pearl Harbor", or whatever. On the other hand, we stomped the guts out of the Japanese for attacking us at Pearl Harbor, and now they make guns for us. So, there's that. If your angry about jobs going overseas, blame the politicians.
If your angry about jobs going overseas, blame the politicians.
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TG,
That "No Choice" thing is what I was refering to.
Find me a company here in the US that makes a new Model 92 of comparable quality to what Miroku's putting out, I'll buy it.
Find me a US company that builds a Hi-Power of comparable quality to my Belgians, I'll buy it.
Find me a US company that builds an SKS of comparable quality to my Chinese rifle (not a great beauty, but it RUNS) & I'll buy it.
Find me a US company that builds a rugged coachgun of comparable (not fancy, just strong & durable) quality for anything close to what I paid for my Baikal, I'll buy it.
Show me a US-made Walther P-38 of comparable quality to my German-made pistol, I'll buy it.
If somebody wants to refuse to buy a gun they may otherwise have a solid need for, or even a desire, because they're still fighting WWII, that's up to them. Same for refusing to buy foreign for political or "moral" reasons.
Me, I get what I need from wherever it comes from.
Denis
That "No Choice" thing is what I was refering to.
Find me a company here in the US that makes a new Model 92 of comparable quality to what Miroku's putting out, I'll buy it.
Find me a US company that builds a Hi-Power of comparable quality to my Belgians, I'll buy it.
Find me a US company that builds an SKS of comparable quality to my Chinese rifle (not a great beauty, but it RUNS) & I'll buy it.
Find me a US company that builds a rugged coachgun of comparable (not fancy, just strong & durable) quality for anything close to what I paid for my Baikal, I'll buy it.
Show me a US-made Walther P-38 of comparable quality to my German-made pistol, I'll buy it.
If somebody wants to refuse to buy a gun they may otherwise have a solid need for, or even a desire, because they're still fighting WWII, that's up to them. Same for refusing to buy foreign for political or "moral" reasons.
Me, I get what I need from wherever it comes from.
Denis
TriumphGuy
New member
I hear you and agree. My point is that if I can't afford the USA made equivalent, I try to buy used. That way more of my money stays stateside. When I do buy something new and foreign made I try to at least stick to products made in the rest of the free world by someone making a wage that they can live on.
If there was an American made equivilent for every product on the market, my moniker would be HarleyGuy.
If there was an American made equivilent for every product on the market, my moniker would be HarleyGuy.
TG,
I don't mind buying American first, IF it's made, IF it's decent quality, IF it's reasonably affordable.
Keg,
I'm a Vietnam ERA vet, my buddy is a Vietnam vet. We were both Air Force, he did time there, I did not.
He's a very balanced kinda guy, not racially prejudiced, but still uses one particular term for a Vietnamese soldier many would find offensive.
Given the fact that he was there, still has the bullet that "almost got him one night", and he has a very personal perspective based on his experiences, I can fully understand his use of that term. I figure, PC or not, he earned the right to it.
He's not automatically biased against any oriental persuasion, and he & I've both worked with people of Japanese & Chinese ancestry enough for me to say there's no difference in how he relates to those of any Asian derivation today. Or even Vietnamese.
He just retains the term in talking about Vietnam, on the very rare occasions when the subject comes up.
On the other hand, a long time ago I worked briefly with a guy who'd been a member of the infamous WWII Bataan Death March in the Phillipines, as a POW.
He didn't talk about his war experiences, until one night the subject came up & he did.
To say the POWs on that march were "mistreated" by the Japanese would be an extreme understatement, and he didn't come out of it, barely alive at the end, with a deep love of the Japanese people.
He didn't go into the horrors, just kept it to the bare bones.
Some years later, while he was in Japan, he chanced to run into one of his most vicious Bataan Japanese tormentors on a public street.
Both stopped, each recognized the other.
Nobody died, no furious retaliation, no blows at all. Not even anger.
He said he had several emotions run through his head rapidly, and finally just ended up.....laughing.
The Japanese soldier of WWII was now just an ordinary guy in ordinary clothes in an ordinary setting, no one to be feared or fought or despised & hated, and time had moved on.
The Japanese looked very uncertain when he realized who he was facing, and relieved at the laughing. Both parted with a handshake, believe it or not.
Don't think I could be that forgiving, but some can.
I might very well be whupped on by members of the local VFW (who I respect immensely), but I'm not so sure it'd be an automatic & universal reaction.
Nor am I sure that NONE of those guys ever bought a product originating in a country they'd previously fought against.
The bikes are a great example of something that (for those of us non-Harley people) Japan & Germany do better than the US does. I've owned six bikes over the years, five were Hondas. (The other was a Triumph while I was living in England.)
I was not about to limit myself to a Harley just because we fought Japan & Germany earlier.
Denis
I don't mind buying American first, IF it's made, IF it's decent quality, IF it's reasonably affordable.
Keg,
I'm a Vietnam ERA vet, my buddy is a Vietnam vet. We were both Air Force, he did time there, I did not.
He's a very balanced kinda guy, not racially prejudiced, but still uses one particular term for a Vietnamese soldier many would find offensive.
Given the fact that he was there, still has the bullet that "almost got him one night", and he has a very personal perspective based on his experiences, I can fully understand his use of that term. I figure, PC or not, he earned the right to it.
He's not automatically biased against any oriental persuasion, and he & I've both worked with people of Japanese & Chinese ancestry enough for me to say there's no difference in how he relates to those of any Asian derivation today. Or even Vietnamese.
He just retains the term in talking about Vietnam, on the very rare occasions when the subject comes up.
On the other hand, a long time ago I worked briefly with a guy who'd been a member of the infamous WWII Bataan Death March in the Phillipines, as a POW.
He didn't talk about his war experiences, until one night the subject came up & he did.
To say the POWs on that march were "mistreated" by the Japanese would be an extreme understatement, and he didn't come out of it, barely alive at the end, with a deep love of the Japanese people.
He didn't go into the horrors, just kept it to the bare bones.
Some years later, while he was in Japan, he chanced to run into one of his most vicious Bataan Japanese tormentors on a public street.
Both stopped, each recognized the other.
Nobody died, no furious retaliation, no blows at all. Not even anger.
He said he had several emotions run through his head rapidly, and finally just ended up.....laughing.
The Japanese soldier of WWII was now just an ordinary guy in ordinary clothes in an ordinary setting, no one to be feared or fought or despised & hated, and time had moved on.
The Japanese looked very uncertain when he realized who he was facing, and relieved at the laughing. Both parted with a handshake, believe it or not.
Don't think I could be that forgiving, but some can.
I might very well be whupped on by members of the local VFW (who I respect immensely), but I'm not so sure it'd be an automatic & universal reaction.
Nor am I sure that NONE of those guys ever bought a product originating in a country they'd previously fought against.
The bikes are a great example of something that (for those of us non-Harley people) Japan & Germany do better than the US does. I've owned six bikes over the years, five were Hondas. (The other was a Triumph while I was living in England.)
I was not about to limit myself to a Harley just because we fought Japan & Germany earlier.
Denis
I have no idea how we went from the Model 70 to relationships with past enemy soldiers.
Lets address the PAST part...............past means past. I'm not going to let our past wars determine what I like or don't like.
Where does it stop? With the Vietnamese ( a people I dearly love and respect) Germans, Japanese, English...........maybe even those damn Yankees.
Regardless I still don't see what it has to do with my Model 70 Winchesters.
I don't see much of a shelf life of this topic.
Lets address the PAST part...............past means past. I'm not going to let our past wars determine what I like or don't like.
Where does it stop? With the Vietnamese ( a people I dearly love and respect) Germans, Japanese, English...........maybe even those damn Yankees.
Regardless I still don't see what it has to do with my Model 70 Winchesters.
I don't see much of a shelf life of this topic.
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