Winchester Model 97 and 12

Shane,

Don't misunderstand- the Model 1893 Winchester Repeating Shotgun, and its evolution, the Model 1897, WERE revolutionary designs for their day. There were only two pump shotguns in production before the Browning-designed 93/97 came along- the Spencer (some were later assembled/sold by Bannerman), and the Burgess. Links for pictures:

http://www.antiquearmsinc.com/spencer-shotgun.htm

http://www.gunsinternational.com/46...5ab39a573-12C8A16D-B1FD-3C95-A544D81A60BC036D

http://www.shootingbums.org/hvr/burgess.html

http://whitney-burgess.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3

Repeating firearms using fixed ammunition really were a revolutionary development in a world accustomed to having to load single shots, double barrels or revolvers from the front. In years gone by, in order to be able to shoot several times without reloading, a man had to carry several different firearms. Back then, when they said a man was "heavily armed," they weren't kidding!

I remember reading a description of a traveller on an early stagecoach, when the West in America was still east of the Mississippi, and the burden of iron he carried for his adventure into the unsettled wilderness. Those were the days when a pistol or two was often backed up by a Bowie knife for the rough and ready traveller, because the big blade didn't run out of ammunition the way single shot pistols did.

It was a pretty big technological leap from double barreled 'coach guns' to repeaters, and the fighting men of the day were early adapters. Law enforcement officers liked them, and so did the US military, taking along a batch of solid frame 1897 Riot guns on expeditions to the Philippines and into Mexico in pursuit of Pancho Villa- see http://lawofwar.org/Parks_Combat_Shotguns.htm for a discussion of this history, from the lawyer's viewpoint, interestingly enough.

In the hands of a practiced user, the 97 is still quite a buckshot hose- take a look at the web videos of some of the faster CAS shooters, it's impressive to say the least. http://www.netw.com/cowboy/links_video.html . But the design has a couple of relatively delicate components (like the ejector), and they do break down.

I well remember reading Randy Cain's struggles several years ago to keep an old take-down 97 running as a 'road gun.' Randy moderated the Shotguns forum at a now-departed forum called The Gun Spot, which was the place I first "met" our moderator, Dave McC. Randy was and is probably the best, least talked about, national level defensive firearms instructor in the business. He wanted to use the 97 as a traveling gun since it was a take-down model. But it kept breaking...

I like the old guns, I love the Stevens 520, which interestingly enough is a Browning design only ten years newer than the Model 93, and which incorporates the marvelous take-down system of the older Burgess- IMHO the best ever devised. And I have one of the Chinese copies of the solid frame Winchester 97 riot guns, which was the first military shotgun used by the US. I got it to show my own students of defensive shotguns, as a way to acquaint them with the history of the breed, and to show them how things have evolved.

And that's the point. Things HAVE evolved, allowing manufacturers new ways to make reliable, durable repeating shotguns at less and less expense as time has gone on. Whether that's deemed to be "better" or not, it is what is. No company in the US can afford to make a Model 12 today, and no company in the US can afford to make a Model 97 either.

That minor detail doesn't keep anyone who wants one from getting either one or both, of course... :D

hth,

lpl
 
Shottyshane, I read your post and agree with alot of your points. The original post was why are they so prized, I didnt say others wont work. Your point about Ruger 10-22 plastic triggerguards being superior to their metal is a point I was trying to make. Ruger 10-22's are an investment casting from some mystery metal, I call potmetal. So to compare plasic against a potmetal casting isnt what I would say is a fair comparison. Try comparing it against a triggerguard machined from steel. Another point I wish would be addressed is hard impact and cold weather impact. Plastic gets very brittle in cold and steel becomes weaker. Since the days of hand machined guns are mostly gone it would be interesting to test modern guns in severe conditions.
 
When it comes to functionality, I don't think you'll find better than the Model 12 Winchester. I have Models 12s, 870s, BPSs, 500s, 590s, 37s, 1200s (yes, multiples of all of them), plus a Model 31 Rem (which is a hell of a good shotgun, BTW) and assorted others...Model 88 Maverick, several H&R single-shot Pardners. I appreciate the BPSs and the 870s and the others as much as anyone...though personally I think the 870 Express is an inferior product and not even close to the shotgun a Model 12 is...or an 870 Wingmaster for that matter. And I'm strictly talking functionality here. The Model 12 is just damn hard to beat in that attribute. It is at least as reliable as any modern shotgun, in my many decades of experience. But alas, far too expensive to build in the modern economy.
 
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I've been looking around for one of both of these guns, its kind of a collection i have going. started with a fulton sxs and stevens sxs my grandpa gave me and of course the browning sweet 16 i got from my dad and with both a 97 and 12 I think it will round out my collection nicely.
 
My $0.02....

My combat experience with the 97 was limited to toting one on guard duty. Never fired a shot in harm's way from one. Still, the thing worked under SEA conditions.

I find the platform tough, reliable and worthy. Same with the 12.

Downsides to either, complicated innards, scarcity of parts and even more important, lack of qualified smiths that speak 97 and 12 fluently.

For the record, both are great shotguns, and if one loses a firefight while so equipped, it's probably not the gun's fault.

Still, I've been trying to wear out 870s since the 50s and failing utterly.
 
i have quite a few shotguns,including several win 12,s, but i would put my rem 870 light contour 3" 12 ga with rem choke aganist any model 12, i can complety detail strip and clean my rem 870 in a third of the time as one of my mod 12,s and find parts and repair it my self if any break, try that with you win 12, oh yea, what if you want another barrel, good luck with that and how about steel shot for hunting ducks. not to mention weight. and not to mention if you happen to hold the trigger back while pumping the gun if you are excited(i know your not to do that). i have a rem express 870 in 28ga that has fired over 6,000 shell(mostly reloads) shooting skeet and small game that i bought at walmart for less than 200.00 that functions better that the day it was bought. if you sho0t 120 shells a year hunting it would take 50 years of small game hunting to equal that. the truth is most hunting shoguns are not fired too much,2-3 boxs a year maybe., so they should last for meny years. eastbank.
 
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Remington 870 = Ruger 10/22

Yeah, I guess the Remington 870 is probably the best choice of pump shotguns for MOST people. It would have been my third choice. I wanted something a little more classic. My second choice would have been an Ithaca 37. But I was at the gun show and lucked into a killer deal on the Winchester 1912. But the Remington 870, like the Ruger 10/22, has become an American standard that has capured the attention of countless after-market custom parts manufacturers. That's all well and good but it doesn't charm me. If I was to get an 870 I'd probably look for an older Wingmaster. In any case, made in USA matters to me.
 
i have a older ithaca 37 with a solid rib and i also like it, but it also has some of the down sides the win 12 has, hard to detail strip,barrels are availible but not a every day item and parts are hard to git and alot must me hand fitted. and its a little harder to just drop one shell in it. the new ithaca,s made cost quite a bit. all hell i like them all. i hunt turkeys the first week of the season with a win 12 ga three inch duck gun that my unch gave me,in rememberence of him. but mostly i use a 870 express 12ga mag. eastbank.
 
My Model 12's have an 80-year history in my family. There have been no gun-related failures in the last 50 years, and none before that that I know of; except for a custom stock on one of them and the front bead on the other, the guns have the original parts they came to my father, and then to me with 60 years ago when my grandfather gave them to my Dad. I never heard of any gun-related failures in their entire history as a part of my family, so I believe the guns to be almost 100% original. They were made and bought new in 1927.

They have had who knows how many thousands of rounds through them. About 90% of their use was shooting in organized competition in trap- 75 or more shots at least once a week for 30 years in my father's and my custodianship plus a practice round or two for warmup, and similar numbers when they belonged to my grandfather when my Dad was a kid learning shotgunning; pheasant and deer hunting for most of their time with my grandfather and my Dad; plinking at hand-tossed clay targets now and then when learning how to shoot a shotgun, for 3 generations of kids being taught those skills. They are a part of the gun legacy handed down to me as the first of my generation in my father's family, and will be handed down to my sons when I'm gone, along with other heirloom guns reaching back to the Revolutionary War.

They are high quality guns because they were made to be, their reliability is of the highest level, they shoot straight and function with minimum input by the shooter, and they last for generations. Any improvements brought by newer designs built to newer standards with newer techniques might be able to improve on some of that, but not enough to interest me, and none of them can match a reputation of 80-odd years of faithful service- not yet anyway.
 
Took my ancient model 1912 out today.

Ran about 100 rounds through her vs my buddy with his brand new Remington 870 3.5" Express. This Winchester is liking me better the more I shoot her. I don't see how this 96-year-old gun is obsolete at all. It works like new.
 
I have an old 12 (16ga) and 97 (12ga) and shoot skeet with them. I wouldn't trade them for anything. They are a part of history, real history.
 
Classics

1897 and 1912. Think about that for a moment.

My 16th birthday present was a Winchester Model of 1912. Made about 1922. And that gun was 50 years old when I got it. Still have it, too! Works just as well today as it did then, maybe even a tad better.

Yep, its all steel and wood. No alloys, no plastics. Besides the aesthetics of that, the design is superlative. You cannot wear one out in a human lifetime, and probably not in several. The gun has the capability to be readjusted for wear to a tremendous degree. Something not possible in other designs.

Not as slick working as an 870 (only a single action bar), but tremendously rugged, and dependable. I would expect the 870 to have some features that are improved over the Model 12, as it was designed nearly 40 years later.

Model 12s got their reputation from working, and working well under all, including the most adverse conditions. And they got it before most newer designs came on the market.

Complicated to detail strip? SO WHAT! They were not designed as "combat" shotguns, but as sporting arms. Faulting the design for that is like complaining that your Camaro isn't a pickup truck! Not applicable, unless you are being ridiculously unfair.

Never cared much for the 97, myself. Its drawbacks are the hammer, and bolt, biting your hand unless you have it out of the way. This was fixed in the Model 12. Also the ejector in the 97 is a little less robust, fortunately, it is easily replaced.

It is a tribute to these designs that they function so well as a combat shotgun, something for which they were never designed, not a shortcoming because newer designed guns function a little better in that role.

And many later designs are no where near as good, from a ruggedness and reliability standpoint. In the 1970s I was a military small arms repairman, and I can tell you from personal experience that the Win 1200 is not nearly as good a gun as the Model 12 for hard use. Rem 870s in those days were very good as well. Today? Not quite so much, I think.

The 97 got popular again, only becuse of the fact it is basically the only pump allowed in CAS shooting. Lots of old 97s stopped gathering dust in the back of the closet, and demand raised their price (and value) to the point where chinese copies are being made and sold in job lots. Its a good gun, but not as good as the Model 12, except where game rules give it the edge.

Any good modern shotgun will function as well as a Model 12, even be a bit slicker to work the action. But a model 12 will still be doing it for your great grandchildren, unless neglected or abused, and maybe even then. Not many newer guns will be able to do that, even with the benefits of modern design materials and manufacturing methods.

And yes, most model 12s do (like thge 97) lack a disconnector. Hold the trigger back and close the action and it goes off! A feature one must be aware of! Not a flaw, just a design feature from an age when the shooter was expected to be smarter than the gun!

Also not proper to bash the gun because it wasn't made for steel shot. Changes to US game laws made well more than half a century after the gun began production are hardly a fault of the design!
 
44 AMP you spoke volumes, however as a student of military and actual used guns, I have to disagree with you and others, that they arent good combat guns. Check the records, The 12's and 97's were still in use in Vietnam and highly prized. The other shotguns issued, mainly the Savage was a horrible gun that was despised for its fragile nature. Modern military standards only require a gun to fire 3,000 rounds without MAJOR failures. Good grief model 12 and 97's's have shot millions of rounds without any failures. One thing for all reading this to do is check the gun auction sites for used model 12's and 97,s and then their favorite gun. The Winchesters for the most part look like they were rode hard and put up wet, yet they still function properly. These guns were used. Most others may be 50 years old and dont have a scratch for the most part. These guns are tough and dont need to be taken apart to keep them running. If their was a better built useing gun I would buy it.
 
Winchester model 12 and steel shot

As I mentioned before, my model 12 is 96 years old. It is all original with a full choke barrel. I have never fired steel shot in it. Would reaming the choke out to say, modified make it safe for steel shot? If not, what about a replacement barrel? And finally, since I prefer it original, what are the best options for legal water-fowl ammo? Bismuth? Tungsten Matrix? Other? So far I've only shot clay targets with this gun; but sooner or later I'll get inspired to let her do what she was created to do. When that day comes I'll need some legal ammo that the gun can handle. I've been shooting a lot of vintage shotgun shells I pick up at the gun show. [I LOVE old stuff! "C'mon now, Warden, ain't this old gun and these ancient shotgun shells grandfathered in? They was legal when they was made....." ;)"Tell it to the Judge."] Any advice would be appreciated since I want to do things right. If I had known how much fun this shotgun-thing was going to be I would have gotten into it a long time ago.
 
I have a Winchester 1897. I must say, it is a fine weapon. I wouldn't trade it for any shotgun made today. Just holding it, you can see it is something special. Firing it is more convincing.
 
Sorry for the misunderstanding

44 AMP you spoke volumes, however as a student of military and actual used guns, I have to disagree with you and others, that they arent good combat guns.
Click to expand...

I certanly didn't mean to imply that they were not good combat shotguns. They are. What they aren't is a gun designed as a military weapon, purpose built for easy takedown, or fitted with all the "tactical" gadgets and latest innovations. One doesn't ususally see ghost ring sights or extended mag tubes or pistol grips on Win 12s, & 97s. NO need, really.

As to steel shot? I wouldn't. I've never used bismuth, it might be ok, but I hear they are pretty spendy shells. As for a replacement barrel, ain't gonna be cheap, and will take a gunsmith to install. They are threaded into the reciever extensions, and don't swap out like the ones on guns designed later. I wanted a riot length barrel for my model 12 for years (not willing to the the 30" full choke one cut), and wound up buying another model 12, one that somebody else had already cut down the barrel.

Another thing to remember is that these older shotguns, made before the advent of plastic shot cups in ammo, pattern tighter than what is standard for today. This is because in those days, using the paper shells, and fiber wads, card wads over the shot, no shot cups, choke was what ever inside diameter of barrel that would produce the desired percentage of pellets in the 30" circle @ 40yds.

My Grandfather's rule of thumb for telling if a gun was full choked was that you could balance a dime in the muzzle. You can do that with an old full choke Winchester. Try it with a new gun, and the dime will fall right through. Take a Winchester made before the late 1950s, and it will (generally) shoot one or more level tighter than the marked choke, with modern plastic shotshells. So a full choke is likely to shoot as extra full or super full. Myself, I wouldn't have the choke on an old model 12 or 97 altered in any way. I'd just learn to shoot it the way it was.
NO STEEL!!! Shooting steel though an old full choke gun could result in a bulged barrel, or maybe worse! You might get away with it for a while, or you might not. No sense taking the risk. Get a new Rem or Mossberg or something to shoot steel through.
 
Thank you, 44 AMP.

I'm thinking to keep mine original with its 30" full choke barrel. I'm starting to hit pretty well with it on hand-thrown clays. When I get around to water-fowl I will have to figure out some kind of non-toxic option. A new shotgun is not an option. Tungsten Matrix anyone?
 
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