Winchester model 100 expert needed

Well, I'm stumped, as it was working before it was taken apart. You have all the old extractor, so there's nothing that fell into the trigger guard housing.

I'll look at the take-down and service manual again tomorrow. There is something I must be missing, but I'll re-read what I did this morning, and let you know.

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I found what I was looking for, and I am wondering if all these model 100's had these. The early versions, at least, had what was known as a trigger lock lever, which set in front of the hammer, and just behind the T-shaped metal piece that makes the back of the magazine well in the trigger guard. It is a camming piece, and is spring loaded. It toggles on a pin that's driven through the front of the trigger guard and in front of the hammer pin, and there should be a hole in those steel arms for it at the front. This is supposed to block the trigger, if the bolt isn't closed. If your gun does not have this, then it should fire, even if the bolt is not all the way closed.

The hammer is held back by the hammer hook or disconnector, pinned to the rear of the trigger, for semi-auto fire. It should move freely, and is spring loaded. Also, with the safety off, the trigger should move easy, and check for its spring tension. When you release the trigger, after it re-cocks, the hammer hook or disconnector should pull off the notch on the hammer, and allow the sear hook to catch on the forward sear notch just below where the hammer hook catches on the hammer. If it does not have the trigger lock lever, then it should fire, unless something is fouling the action of the hammer hook (disconnector). If it does have the trigger lock lever, look for it to be fouled, and not moving properly.

What was throwing me, is that the parts drawings do not show the trigger lock lever, but the NRA disassembly guide does. However, it shows a drawing of the older model, which has the machined hammer hook, and not the bent sheet metal one. I knew these had a trigger lock lever, which blocks the trigger if the bolt isn't closed, but I don't see this on some photos I've seen, nor on parts lists. If it is in yours, it will sit right in front of the hammer, held by a thru-pivot pin. There is another pin in it's side, with a pan head on it, and a plunger and spring in the front of it. The cam block has a lever arm that reaches down into the trigger guard to block the front of the trigger from working. Check for this.
 
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So you can squeeze the trigger assembly up against the receiver and it works.
Have you bolted it all into the stock, and tightened both screws down yet?
Unless something has been bent, which it sounds as if you've been careful enough not to do, sounds like something isn't installed exactly right, and it pushes down on the trigger group.
I don't currently have one in the shop to look at for possibilities.
 
I'm no gunsmith, but I have three Win 100's and have worked on all of them in the past. Dixie Gunsmithing and Gunfixr seem to have coved most of the issues. But one thing popped out as I read this thread. You said it worked when you squeezed the receiver down, that there was play between the receive and recoil block. The action and recoil block should be tight together when the rear trigger guard screw is inserted and tightened. If it is not, it will cause problems with the cocking system. If you have play between the rear upper receiver and the recoil block which can be squeezed down, it is not assembled correctly. I don't believe the extractor would cause this play in the receiver. Even if the bolt doesn't fully close, there should be no play in the receiver and block. I would look for reasons why you have play in the receive. Did you remove the recoil block, was there shim material under the recoil block the may have fallen out. Is the gas piston and charging rails assembled correctly. Re-look at the front pin that holds the front rail system block to the upper receiver. Is it through the hole. Take the magazine out and look at the rails from the magazine well. They should be tight up to the upper receiver, no more than .002 or .003"
 
I cant see how I assembled it incorrectly. I don't remember how much play there was in it before hand. I have taken the block out and there is no shims. The rails are tight up against the receiver. If they where down a little this problem would not happen.

Dixie I believe I have the setup you are talking about. I have never taken another apart so I don't know if they are different. I know they changed something in 1962 but I don't know what. I took some pics but cant get them to upload now. I will upload them later when I get a chance.
 
The rails are tight up against the receiver. If they where down a little this problem would not happen.
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98 220 swift,
I will disassemble one of my 1962 model 100's later this morning and take some pictures. If I understand your statement correctly, the rails are tight up against the upper receiver? Is it possible they are binding. How much play is there between the receiver and recoil block. You said you didn't remember if there was any play before you replaced the extractor.

This is a shot in the dark, but try cutting one or two shims out of a coke or beer can and place them temporarily under the recoil block, this would be less than .002". See if this corrects the problem. Who knows - old stock, oil soaked wood; may be the recoil block after you tighten the rear trigger guard screw compressed the stock and is sitting a little lower in the stock causing the receiver play.

About five years ago I posted a re-print on how to glass bed a Winchester Model 100. It is done in four steps and really helps the accuracy of these guns. My 100 carbine shoots 1.5 to 2 inch groups as a result of this bedding. The first step read, "1.) The first step is to bed the recoil block in place - in a separate operation. This is done with the recoil block screw VERY loose. This screw just has to be there to locate its permanent location in a way that won't allow the recoil block to flex the action when your finished."

According to this the recoil block could be raised a little and the gun would still function. This could eliminate your play in the receiver and block.
 
Just look'en at the Pics,
The recoil block and group assembly should be tight, it looks like I can see a little chatter of the two over the years.
What does the recess of the screw hole shoulders look like. Would a thin washer used with the screw tighten things back up???
 
There is no binding in the action bars. They slide well. As far as the rear block. I thought about putting a shim under it but that may tighten the looseness but will pull the receiver farther away from the trigger assy making the problem worse. That's what I cant figure out is why this is now a problem. I guess I know what the problem is just cant figure out why it happened or how to fix it. Possibly bedding the around the barrel screw forcing the receiver down a little. I a afraid that will cause other problems.
 
Guess I don't understand the play issue if raising the recoil block will create more play between it and the receiver. But do not bed the barrel screw. Here are the instruction for glass bedding a model 100. This is off track but this bedding procedure reduced my 100 groups by half. I'm going to dis-assemble a 100 now.

tbailey,
Bedding the Winchester Model 100 is a real project because of its unusual action. If you need to identify the "exact" parts I'm referring to, you can look them up on a drawing at this link.
Exploded Drawing - Win model 100

1.) The first step is to bed the recoil block in place - in a separate operation. This is done with the recoil block screw VERY loose. This screw just has to be there to locate its permanent location in a way that won't allow the recoil block to flex the action when your finished.

2.) Bed the front tip of the stock (for about 1"). This will locate the front of the barrel, so that you'll know exactly where it will end up when you're finished. This step just provides a temporary saddle that will be ground away later.

3.) Bed the trigger guard in place (only necessary on the ends) around the screws.

4.) Cut away about 1/8" of wood from the stock under the barrel (just in front of the gas tube) and bed the barrel to the stock for the next 4". After it cures, separate the barrel from the stock, and grind away the temporary saddle made in step #2.

5.) The receiver needs to be bedded on both sides, along the bottom rear 2.5" along its lower edge, and about 3/8" up each side. Also, skin bed the small contact surface of the barreled action (only around the take down screw).

6.) Be sure that the operating rod guide assembly is absolutely free from any binds, or you will wind up creating a real jammer that will drive you crazy. The operating rod guide assembly should also be deburred along the outer surfaces and lightly oiled.

7.) You can then experiment with "tension bedding" by a adding paper shim to the metal-to-metal contact surface of the recoil block. This "flashback" will get you into shooting the best groups that you've ever seen from any Winchester Model 100. Good luck ....

Well, that's it. If you're looking for your groups to tighten up with the Winchester Model 100, that's how it's done. If you'd like to see more tech tips check out our website at WWW.LARRYWILLIS.COM

- Innovative
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It would not create more "play" but would create more clearance between the receiver and trigger assy. That's what I meant to say.
 
Dissembled an early Mod 100, Serial number 75089; and mine doesn't have the dis-connector in it. I purchased mine used after it had the firing pin corrected. It may have been removed during the repair. I recall reading somewhere Winchester removed that part in later productions. Mine just has the trigger lock at the back of the trigger. Numrich diagram for the model 100 does not show the dis-connector.

Added. Here is the discussion from post: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272094

It looks like what is sometimes called the secondary sear. If so, it is what holds the hammer cocked while the primary sear is still disengaged from pulling the trigger. When the trigger is released, the primary sear engages and the secondary sear releases, ready for the next trigger pull.

All semi-autos have some similar arrangement to prevent the hammer from following the bolt down. It is not really a disconnector, but serves the same function. (Take a look at the M1 rifle or the Browning Auto 5 shotgun for another approach to the same thing.)
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"The model 100 originally had a trigger lock system to eliminate doubling, but after two years of production in 1963, the factory decided that it caused more problems than good. Because of these problems, they discontinued its use and recommended that these parts be removed from all existing rifles when they later came into a gunshop for repairs."
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Yes, that is what is called the trigger lock lever, and as you can see, if the bolt is not forward, and mashing this down, it wont fire. As was mentioned, they later discontinued this, and it could be taken out of this gun, and it would assuredly drop the hammer every time. My guess is that it is not working correctly, and freeing the trigger when the bolt closes. The action bar would be what hits the cam surface, and depresses it, when the bolt is forward. If there was too much slack in the bar, (up and down movement), then it might not push the lever all the way down when the bolt is forward. Winchester must have evidently decided that this safety feature was not needed, and removed it.

This is why I was concerned about the extractor being proud on that rim, and maybe holding the bolt back just enough that this would catch the trigger, and block it. It is a really close tolerance part for it to work correctly. Any new slack or wear can most assuredly cause a malfunction.

Since they took this out of the later models, you could too, and I will guarantee it will work, but you will loose that safety feature.
 
If I took it out the hammer would follow the bolt back down when firing? That's what it looks like to me. There is nothing to hold the hammer back?
 
No, it can't do that, because you're holding the trigger back, like you would when firing.

The disconnector, or hammer hook, is the rear spring loaded hook on the trigger, and you'll notice another hook at the front but lower, and that is the sear hook. These keep that from happening, and I doubt you would be fast enough to fire it, release the trigger, and pull it again, before the bolt closes.

This works about the same as the trigger is a Browning Auto-5 shotgun.
 
I'll add this. The trigger lock lever was a safety device to keep the gun from firing if the bolt was not completely closed, even if the bolt was not totally turned as far as it could go. If it did, the excessive headspace could cause a case rupture. However, Winchester chose to do away with this safety feature, as I would say, that when the guns eventually loosened up from age and firing, the thing would get to where it would do just what your's did.

I'll tell you one other thing to check. See if the bolt in the stock is loose, which holds the recoil block in pace. Take off the butt plate to get to it. That bolt should be tight, so the recoil block has no movement in it. Movement could allow the receiver some slack, and thus the action bars.
 
I will look at it again when I get home later tonight.

I also want to thank you all for your help. This rifle has been in the family since new and I would love to get it working again. My grandpa claims he even killed a elk with it. He is no longer with us. Its a .243
 
Took the "extra" parts out. rifle functions fine cycing the bolt. hammer does not follow bolt down when holding trigger. Now for the weather to warm up a bit and I will go to the range and live fire test it.

Once again I want to thank you all for helping me with this gun. ESP Dixie Gunsmithing
 
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